Okay guys I have my next question. My horse was never taught to turn on the haunches, and I have been trying to teach him to. However, he was taught to turn on the forehand, and every time I ask him to turn, he plants his front foot and moves his haunches. He will do haunch turn on the ground, but I can get one step max in saddle. So my question is this: have any of you dealt with this? How did you do it? How do you ask for the turn on the haunches?
If your horse is taught to turn on haunches with pressure near the shoulder on the ground, I’m not sure why he’s not responding to your leg. Are you moving your outside leg forward towards the shoulder to ask for this? Are you shifting your weight back to free up the shoulders? Are you supporting this movement with the reins? I suggest trying to get one good step and then stop so he knows he did the right thing. Next time, ask for more steps. It sounds like your aids are confusing your horse. That’s not a big deal - the horse is learning the difference between the turn on the haunches and the forehand. The clearer your aids are, the faster he’ll figure out the difference. But sometimes, it’s up to them to discover that “lightbulb” moment. It’ll happen!
[QUOTE=J-Lu;8343392]
If your horse is taught to turn on haunches with pressure near the shoulder on the ground, I’m not sure why he’s not responding to your leg. Are you moving your outside leg forward towards the shoulder to ask for this? Are you shifting your weight back to free up the shoulders? Are you supporting this movement with the reins? I suggest trying to get one good step and then stop so he knows he did the right thing. Next time, ask for more steps. It sounds like your aids are confusing your horse. That’s not a big deal - the horse is learning the difference between the turn on the haunches and the forehand. The clearer your aids are, the faster he’ll figure out the difference. But sometimes, it’s up to them to discover that “lightbulb” moment. It’ll happen![/QUOTE]
Yah I am doing those things, but on the ground he is sensitive enough to pressure he moves away from your fingertips (nicely, he is not afraid) so he doesn’t really move away from pressure. I am also asking for one step at a time, and I get it occasionally, but it has been almost 2 months with no progress.
Wait. So on the ground, you can use your fingertips to move his shoulders around his haunches? Can you move his haunches around his shoulder for a turn on the forehand?
So what exactly is he doing to ignore you if he knows these cues? Is he walking forward and blowing through your rein aids? Is he ignoring your leg and just standiing there? What is he doing?
Are you looking for a pivot (western type of turn on the haunches where the one foot is pretty much stationary) or a dressage turn on the haunches where the front end circles around the haunches, while the hind legs are doing a small circle themselves?
(I ask because for a turn on the haunches, the outside leg stays back to control the hind quarters and maintain bend, not come up by the shoulders as it sounds like you are thinking)
can your horse to a shoulder in and/or haunches in?
A turn on the haunches is a forward motion, bent in the direction of travel. Turn on the forehand should be done from the halt, and horse is bent away. Being those two simple differences, the aids are very different for each one so the horse shouldn’t be confused by riders aids. I would work on “square turns” or riding a square, may help better visual and teach a turn on the haunch?
Id play around with walking a volte and adding shoulder in straight on the volte then haunches in. when this works well - walk on a volte think a little haunches in then bring the shoulders around. once you can do this, then you can make it small
[QUOTE=coconino;8343350]
Okay guys I have my next question. My horse was never taught to turn on the haunches, and I have been trying to teach him to. However, he was taught to turn on the forehand, and every time I ask him to turn, he plants his front foot and moves his haunches. He will do haunch turn on the ground, but I can get one step max in saddle. So my question is this: have any of you dealt with this? How did you do it? How do you ask for the turn on the haunches?[/QUOTE]
How are you asking for the turn on the haunches?
Use a fence , or barn wall , (eps if there is a corner of fence you can place him in). , back his hind end against the barrier, then ask for a TOH in the open direction away from the barrier . Reward for each step of effort. Also try exaggerating the aids, you can refine them later.
I start with a 1/4 turn - basically riding a large square. Remember to shorten the walk as you near the turn, the concentrate on keeping the hind feet moving, the shoulder turning, and your weight moving with the turn. You have to be very quick with leg aids - because the hind leg is on a very small step. kickkickkick (subtly of course). I never start with a half turn, that is just too much opportunity for things to go wrong.
Be careful that you are not asking too much with your leg for the turn. With a turn on the haunches, your leg is just to keep the hind legs moving, not to turn the shoulders. As others have said, start by doing a 1/4 turn. Really think of leading the shoulders around, open the inside rein, look where you are trying to go, and use your leg to just send him forward (aka make sure your leg isn’t going too far back when you ask)
With a TOH, the inside leg keeps the haunches stepping in place, the outside upper leg turns the shoulders, while the outside lower leg keep the haunches from stepping wide. Meanwhile your core keeps the horse in place.
An exercise called the box is useful, ride forward off the wall half halt strongly with your core muscles, and ask for a 1/4 turn, then walk forward across the arena, and before the wall, repeat. Surprising how much core usage it takes.
You can also think of H/I for your lower leg position.
Walk forward in collected walk towards a wall. Collect him up well before he has to stop at the wall. Do a normal turn through the corner, step by step. Then go forward, medium walk. Repeat until you can collect him easily without losing the activity of the back legs and without losing “forward”. When you have that, begin to ask for one of the steps in the corner to be almost in place - the outside hind around the inside hind. Don’t lose the rhythm, no planted feet. Use inside leg and outside thigh/lower leg as mentioned above, but in my horse’s case, I can’t use too much inside leg, more like a pole for him to move around. The idea is to move the shoulders while holding the haunches. It might help to start the corner in a bit of SI or even a bit of HI- you need the bend to do the ToH.
Start with asking for one step, then walk out into a normal small corner. Then ask for two… etc
Think of it as the tiniest corner, really into the corner -
And remember horses have an easier side. Get that one…
Thanks for all the suggestions. I just tried some of them yesterday and it really helped. Now, what is the difference between a pirouette and a TOH? I just notices that they are very similar, at least at the walk.
Your best source is the rule book. These movements are defined under rule DR112.
As to the difference between TOH and pirouette, this will tell you more than you want to know. 
http://dressagetoday.com/article/janet-foys-test-techniques-26657
We only do walk pirouette in the uk tests instead of turn on the haunches. With my guy, ‘thinking forward’ is the most important thing. We started off doing a 10m circle in shoulder in, and then just asked him to sit back with the outside rein and the walk pirouette came pretty naturally.
The only real difference in Piro vs TOH is size. With the more collected walk at the higher levels, the TOH is expected to become much smaller. In a piro, executed from a collected walk, the inside hind is expected to step back into the same spot with each step. No pivoting allowed, but the foot steps up and down into the same footstep (in reality, there may be a few inches of deviation of course).
In a TOH, the horse is still working in medium walk, with just a shortening of the stride as we enter the movement, and the inside hind is allowed to step beyond its own footprint - ideally to remain within a one meter circle. You do ocassionally see a lower level (2nd/3rd level) horse who can already do a good walk piro, because they have a good quality collected walk. But most riders try to not collect the walk too much at that level.
I thought you had a PSG horse? Coconino/Fishjumper…
[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8348859]
I thought you had a PSG horse? Coconino/Fishjumper…[/QUOTE]
I have four horses, smartypants.
