Turnout References Wanted

I’m on the hunt for some good references for carriage turnout. Especially road carts. I either suck at googling, or I have a really different cart, but I can’t find anything that looks like mine and I’m struggling to determine whether it’s formal or casual/country (see bottom of post for link to picture). I’m in the process of getting it refinished, but it seems like what I’m wanting to do isn’t necessarily appropriate for the vehicle or my pony, and I’m feeling confused and a little frustrated.

Long story short: stripping the current dark green paint, then staining with a cherry/mahogany stain (whichever best compliments my pony). redoing the wheels black. tipping the shafts with black vinyl (I have a strong dislike bordering on hatred of patent and will be avoiding it if at all possible). remaking the seats and using tan vinyl for everyday/marathon (will only be doing lowest level CDE, if we ever get to that point [nothing really within a reasonable haul from my area] so my 2-wheeler would be ok) and a second seat set in tan corduroy. brass hardware.

I have heard mixed views on whether or not this is suitable for my cart, because some say it’s a more formal cart due to the phaeton-style cut-under, others say it’s casual/country no matter what because it’s a 2-wheeler. My trainer thinks I can go either way. I’ve come to the conclusion that I need to switch to a neck collar. I got to test a few different style breastcollars and none fit quite right and interfere with either his throat or his shoulders and will end up causing issues once we add the cart to the equation. If my harness/cart hardware is brass, do I get brass hames (do brass hames exist??) or stainless? That said, the cart has straight shafts, not curved gig shafts, so I’ve also heard that a full collar is inappropriate for this vehicle???

I was originally planning to wear a tweed coat, chocolate brown boots/gloves, chocolate helmet (thinking the microsuede CO style rather than velveteen), a green tie and cream or white shirt, and black or deep green pants under an apron that I have yet to decide on. I have had a few people say that this would be inappropriate. Thoughts?

I’ll stop rambling and just add links to pictures of my cart (when I bought it, so with the original dark green paint and greenish tealish velveteen seat), and my pony (his typical coat colour. the most variation that happens is the amount of black vs tan on his legs [more black in winter, less in summer] and the amount of white rabicano-roaning over his flanks [more pops up each season])

Any references/opinions would be appreciated. Online/books/etc. I’m just stuck! haha

Cart: https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/579648_511479512237359_456723397_n.jpg

Pony: https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/944402_564300373621939_1681264239_n.jpg

Gloria Austin’s website

has a dauntingly detail description of all things turnout based on the vehicle you are putting to. You can, I believe, contact her through there as well.

She has descriptions of every kind of vehicle you can imagine and coinciding turnout rules. If you can’t find one like yours on there, I’d be very surprised. I’m a real newbie at all this, but look at the "park gigs’, they have two wheels but are more “fancy/formal” than a Meadowbrook I think. Notice I said I think.

cool stuff on there, I’m actually going down in December and plan a tour of her carriage museum and some driving lessons at her place.

I agree that I think your cart looks more like a gig than a road cart. It’s a beautiful piece!!

I think the position of the shafts is more indicitive of what makes a gig- than the curve at the tips- which is not a hard fast rule.

Does the seat come totally out? I’m curious how you plan to have two kinds of uppholstery.

I’d do a lot more looking into the traditions associated with the vehicle before commiting to anything. I think it’s begging to be more formal that country- and if you are going to get brass harness with a collar… well… and you you can get brass hames- they are stunning.

Also- if you hate patent leather- you can have the shafts covered with plain low sheen leather- you don’t have to do vinyl.

One more thing- if you haven’t found these little turnout review articles by John Greenall- you will enjoy reading them. He is much kinder than George Morris- and has lots of good tips- even if your turnout is nothing like what is in the pictures- you can learn about the way that turnouts are observed.

There are four parts- and it seems that the links from the article- one to the next- don’t work- so you need to find the place on the sidebar with the links which do work.
http://www.carriagedriving.net/index.php?m=a&a=36

yep, the seats are two separate cushions (a seat and a back) that pop out, to allow them to be easily replaced or stored separately from the cart. (I have a shed at the bard where the cart lives, and the seats are at home waiting to be remade). It’s actually a super handy feature with the climate around here! I also have mixed feelings about the buttons on the seatback, I dislike the even double rows given the shape of the seatback, so I think I’d do no buttons on the vinyl/wipe-down seat inserts and then buttons in two rows but with the upper row longer and the bottom row done so the buttons are even with the gaps between buttons of the top row (if that makes sense?) for the corduroy presentation seat inserts. (plus, being able to remove the seats means that I can keep my nice show ones at home, inside where they won’t get dirty, which will in turn extend their lifetime because they won’t be collecting dust while in storage and won’t be subjected to more deep cleanings than necessary)

I’d love to use leather, but feel like it’d be too expensive to need to replace regularly with our wet west coast weather and my lack of climate controlled storage. The shed does have decent ventilation, but I still worry about leather getting wet then drying out and cracking/splitting. Vinyl or other synthetic would be a bit more forgiving I’d think.

I’ll check out Gloria Austin’s site. It hasn’t come up in previous searches so I REALLY appreciate the mention!

I do agree that my cart looks more like a gig than a road cart. When I’d google “road cart” I got lots of spindlebacks, some meadowbrooks, easy entries, cross country carts, and a dog cart, but nothing like mine. I just assumed mine was a road cart because I’d always read that part of what makes a gig a gig is the curved shafts and the different saddle that comes with a gig harness. The seller (who had it built for her fjord by a fellow somewhere in BC who passed shortly after she got it) had it marketed as a meadowbrook and I know it’s definitely NOT a meadowbrook, haha! I got it, and a nice little breaking harness (not the best fit, and in rough shape, so wasn’t something I’d use to actually put him to the cart, but it was a great intro to wearing a harness. ended up selling it to a friend for $100 and a pair of boots she was selling for $80), along with a Doris Ganton book, a couple whips, slow vehicle sign, and a set of harness pads for $750! She was selling the cart for $1400 on its own, but we got talking and she asked about my horse and when I told her the story of how we met/how his previous home treated him/how we were reunited/how far we’ve come in the time I’ve owned him, she ended up waiving my 2nd payment. Talk about good luck eh? I knew when I got it that it would need some cosmetic work, she’d already partially sanded it in preparation for painting it black and tan to match her fjord, and initially I thought of painting it black or burgandy, but then fell in love with a picture I saw in a book of a phaeton in a rich red wood stain pulled by a lovely horse the same colour as Java (minus Java’s tan points).

In reading Gloria’s powerpoint, I notice many references to “lady-driven”. Though this may be TMI, I am in the middle of gender transition, and while I identify as male, I don’t always come across as male right off the bat. I present as male on a daily basis and intend to dress myself as male for presentation, but now I’m feeling a bit worried that my cart won’t be appropriate for a male-driven vehicle? Am I overthinking this? Wouldn’t be surprised if I am, haha!

Ceylon, your cart definitely does have a gig look to it. This is not just a ladies’ vehicle.

You may be overthinking it, though.

My first question is what kind of shows are you planning to attend? I see you’re in Vancouver, which is in Canada, right? Pardon my stupidity on that. Anyway, are they ADS shows, or similar “formal” shows?

Whatever showing organization hosts the shows would have a rule book that should define the type of attire.

Simple & conservative are your best bets. With the green cart, you may want to think of using a similar color outfit, or going with something that stands out a little, like a khaki color.

A simple long sleeve vest, brown gloves, and a “church” derby, along with a lap robe that matches the color tones of the vehicle can all be very gender neutral and work for you in all situations.

I’ve found just a couple pics of people at shows driving similar vehicles. Hopefully this will help a little.

http://www.jamicostud.com/RB/RB%20Essex%20Show.jpg

http://www.gazetteherald.co.uk/resources/images/2093730.jpg?type=gallery

http://www.swphotography.co/Equestrian/Carriage-Driving-shows/2012-Bucks-County-Horse-Park/i-n9BWNwK/2/L/20120610_092729-L.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QPBMDYXvMW4/TKtJqzRlrkI/AAAAAAAAAYk/RkxKLXjKcM8/s1600/AthletePecos.JPG

http://www.norskwoodworks.com/horses/VillaLouis_06_0817_1-72dpi6.jpg

http://www.gryphonshowhorses.com/images/albums/NewAlbum_260e3/Villa.Louis.Jenee.Zach.2008_029.jpg

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/man-driving-horse-carriage-11012841.jpg

http://www.leroypennysavernews.com/LynneBelluscioArticles/Images/Horse_Show.jpg

Incidentally, for painted vehicles, typically the harness “should” be russet for proper turnout.

Vancouver Island is just off the coast of Vancouver (which is in BC, Canada, yes). In BC I believe CDE and similar events are held by the BC Carriage Driving Society, and with ADS (or similar) rules. I’m still trying to figure that part out as I don’t know anyone locally who’s into CDE (my driving friends are mini club or draft people, and they have local shows that they can enter, but I can’t because I don’t have a full large draft or mini, though grade/crossbred mares are allowed to show in the draft classes at the fairs, grade/crossbred geldings are not). All I have confirmed thus far is that the nearest CDE is held a 1.5hr ferry ride and 3hr haul away, and seems to be hit-or-miss as far as if it actually happens due to the facility being first and foremost an eventing facility and the eventers get first dibs on weekends. (okay now that i’ve double checked BCCDS, it sounds like some CDEs and ADTs are run by ADS rules, others are EC [equine canada] or HCBC [horse council BC, which I’ve always thought of as an insurance thing rather than a rules thing since all riders who use facilities other than what’s on their personal property, or who compete, are required to have HCBC insurance]. not too sure how that works, will look into it more when I go to renew my BCCDS membership)

The green cart is no longer green (or at least, not evenly green. it was partially sanded when I bought it, and is partially stripped now, so SOMETHING needs to be done to refinish it, and as much as I love the red wood stain look, I’m starting to doubt that it’s the best path to take with the news that it’s more of a gig than roadcart, and it seems like natural/stained isn’t appropriate for a gig.

Although helmets aren’t traditional, I’d prefer to wear a helmet for all driving events. I’m just not comfortable doing horsey activities without protecting my noggin’! I’ve seen too many horse-related head injuries, and seeing driving wrecks on youtube and stuff has me a bit paranoid. My current helmet is something that would only be ok for marathon (troxel intrepid in “carbon”), so I’d invest in a prettier helmet to suit my turnout for dressage/cones. If I go the formal route, I’d think a black velvet helmet, like a CO Hampton would be appropriate, rather than a suede-style like the GR8 or most GPA/IRH out there these days?

Thanks for the links, I’ll give them a look :slight_smile:

I think if you are concerned about moisture that there might be even MORE of a case for leather as it would breathe and allow the wood underneath to dry- while a non breathing material may hold moisture in and rot the wood faster.

I also think leather would wear better than vinyl- but there may be synthetic harness materials that are comparable in strength but regular upholstery vinyl is much too delicate for that point of wear. My experience as a commercial carriage driver had me driving 8 hrs a day- 5 days a week… I’ve had both leather and patent leather on my shafts. My opinion is that the patent leather seems to wear a little better but over time will get scuffed and stop looking pristine. The leather will look better longer- but eventually will wear so thin that it tears. What I’m saying is you replace the patent leather because it has ceased looking good- you replace the leather because it has lived it’s useful life.

I just redid the seats in my carriage and had a bit of a learning curve along the way- when you do your seats- you might want to do your vinyl seats first and go ahead and do the buttons- so when you get to the cloth seats you are an old hand at it… then you also have nice vinyl seats on hand if you ever have a rainy show day- you won’t feel so torn about having to choose if your vinyl seals look sharp too. I always feel like seats without buttons look too ordinary unless they have some structure like welting.

Backing out of having to perfectly strip all that wood would be a MAJOR time saver in the refinish process. I vote for a repaint! (NAVY!)

I think the gender question in regards to turnout is very interesting, not only because there are different traditions for men and women driving- but there are sometimes seperate classes of competition- so when you identify as one gender or the other- there is no doing it half way! (If you were to compete in a show with classes structured that way) My opinion is not to even bother with a gender neutral zone- and instead- to celebrate your gender identity and drive as such. I have NO IDEA about the legality of this in the showing rules- and I have no idea about how that would be received by the other competitors or judges but I am guessing it would be with grace and understanding.

The whole gender thing has gotten in the way of a few different things I’ve wanted to do (some classes I’ve wanted to take at local rec centers, for example), so it’s definitely something I worry about when it comes to competition down the road. In fact, it gets in the way of participating in queer-centric events as well, since I identify as a mainly heterosexual male (the queer community, and even trans* community are VERY anti-trans* if you don’t fit in a very tiny box. In fact, the community is far less understanding of transfolk than the straight community is!). Who on the board of directors would I approach in regards to being a biological female (who has not yet changed the gender marker on their ID because it’s too bloody expensive at the moment) competing as a male since that’s how I identify? I’m not sure if it’s something the rules people can decide, or if it’d be a case-by-case basis as far as who the judge is at each individual event. It’s definitely not something that the average competitor would need to worry about! haha!

I’m really not a fan of navy, BUT, that being said, I have a lovely navy-bordering-on-black cap that I absolutely adore and if I could get past my “all horsey sports need helmets” I could theoretically tie it into my presentation. hmmm… I LOVE lime green but LOATHE dark green. Same with blue, I adore royal, but navy or baby blues don’t appeal to me in the slightest. Teal on the other hand…haha! There was a brief time when I considered black with burgundy but I’m not sure how it’d look in real life…

good point about the vinyl seats though, that’s not something I would have thought of on my own. I did have a friend say that brass would look sharp, but I think going with buttons that match the seat fabric would be best. contrasting buttons would look a bit tacky I’d think.

another good point about leather vs vinyl, and now that you’ve elaborated I do agree with you! (if you have any links as to how to go about tipping the shafts, I’d appreciate it. I’ve read Chewbacca’s blog post about redoing her meadowbrooks, but she didn’t really delve into details).

another colour that really appeals to me is deep chocolate brown. if I were to do a chocolate body with deep green gear, would a black harness with russet padding be acceptable? I do love russet, but feel a full russet harness would look terrible on my pony’s red coat. I borrowed a friend’s mini’s backpad (black with brown) just to sit it on Java’s back and the little bit of brown looked great on him. I understand the jist of when russet is appropriate, but know nothing about when black with brown is ok or not.

It’s cute, but it’s not a gig. It’s a road cart. The suspension is not a gig suspension, nor is the seat. Both of those scream classic “road cart”.

So…what you have is a nice casual road cart. Stylewise it is designed more along feminine lines.

Appropriate colors would be sporting: green, yellow, reds, blues. Contrasting striping. NO lamps.

Guess I will be the voice of dissent, with the linked vehicles not all being gigs. There is some similarity to OPs cart, shown in the seat having no box under it, straight shafts, various seat backs with rails and spindles, but a number of them are NOT gigs to begin with! They are just similar vehicles turned out nicely. Definitely would call a couple of them Road Carts, with the spring under seat on the axle, or other details. These are Road Carts:

http://www.leroypennysavernews.com/LynneBelluscioArticles/Images/Horse_Show.jpg

http://www.swphotography.co/Equestrian/Carriage-Driving-shows/2012-Bucks-County-Horse-Park/i-n9BWNwK/2/L/20120610_092729-L.jpg

They are lightweight, straight shafted, simple springs, with an open style of construction which makes it easy to fix or repair. Seat height is lower than the Gig seating, though not real low, and riding on the shafts or spring directly under seat fastened to the axle. Both nicely turned out, but they are not Gigs.

These are what I would call Gigs:

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/man-driving-horse-carriage-11012841.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QPBMDYXvMW4/TKtJqzRlrkI/AAAAAAAAAYk/RkxKLXjKcM8/s1600/AthletePecos.JPG

http://www.jamicostud.com/RB/RB%20Essex%20Show.jpg

Above vehicles have a boxy shape body, the curved or gig shafts with more hook to them. Better ride with more elaborate spring systems. Not similar to OPs vehicle. They are more formal vehicles, shown here with the correct harness using the wide Gig Saddles, full collars, no breeching showing, because a Gig uses a false breeching strap between the shafts, behind the horse. One horse I would mark down because he is using a breast collar. Gigs are usually weighty, so the full collar is more suitable. Driver and passengers are dressed in suits, have NICE hats, more formal in style of their clothing.

And I am going to let this one be a Gig by it’s spring system, which is more complicated than the springs of OPs cart. Gig saddle and full collar on the pony harness, though not using false breeching as all the other Gig photos have.

http://www.gazetteherald.co.uk/resources/images/2093730.jpg?type=gallery

I would not call the OPs vehicle a true Road Cart, because of the solid structure of the body. It is a nice looking cart, a bit of a mix of various styles, but a pleasing design overall. I would just go with it being an Easy Entry Cart with no specific name unless you can find the maker name. Shafts curve down under seat for front entry, has steps in front of the wheels, which is a trademark for the EE cart styles. It has no boxy body under or around the seat, no curved shafts with a more elaborate spring system to ease the ride. Doesn’t look the least heavy like gigs can be, so easy on the horse too.

On refinishing, I would suggest going for paint instead of stain. Most painted vehicles do not have the same kind of wood thru out, so grains don’t match if you can see them. Paint makes all the woods look the same. Paint can make a horse the “star” of the outfit as you go in front of the Judge by cart being a neutral the horse contrasts with. The gig pictures have various colored horses with dark vehicles, so the horse is what you see.

I would not try to match my horse, with vehicle color. I would worry about you being a big reddish blur way out in the ring with any distance from the Judge. Too matchy. Then if horse should change color, get sunburned, he might clash with vehicle! Sorry, I know that is not what you wanted to hear. I know several folks who did their “dream colors” on a vehicle put to the perfect horse, and then were horrified to see the show photos that had them as a big blur on the rail. No contrasts way out there. Sure different than how it looked up close with lovely contasting pinstripe and outfit!! They ended up repainting AGAIN so they didn’t disappear when on the rail or driving a Dressage test.

Lovely pinstriping can help set off the dark color (Welsh with top hatted driver) of horse and gig, but not overpower horse or Driver clothing. These appear to be UK photos, so clothing is mostly dark, even on the ladies. A light laprobe to go on a gentleman’s turnout, could be the neutral contrast for dark vehicle, dark suit. Tie to match the pinstripe.

If you like to be a bit more formal in clothing with the painted EE cart, you could go with navy blazer, tan pants, tan laprobe, your brown boots, wear the bowler hat. DO get the brim of bowler shaped, so it has some “style” to it. Not quite the deep dip front and back of the Saddlebred girls, but not flat on the bottom either.

I hate to disagree with Chewy, but russet harness is most correct in a stained vehicle with BROWN hardware, not ever used on a painted vehicle. Also vests only over the shirt, are only proper show attire on ladies. I am not sure what a “long sleeved vest” is, sounds like a coat to me. Probably NOT correct for a gentleman. Gentlemen always wear rather tailored jackets, nothing loose fitting.
My husband usually wears a brown jacket, when he shows. Goes well with our Bay horses and painted vehicle. Tan or gray laprobe, depending on his trousers color. Brown Fedora hat since our outfit is Informal, with less formal style vehicles.

goodhors, that’s sort of what I thought as far as gig vs road cart, but as I’m definitely a beginner, I was inclined to believe otherwise when the explanation made sense. That’s also what I thought as far as brown harness goes.

But when is black-on-brown harness (brown padded black) appropriate?

I know that my cart was originally natural, but the woman who had it made decided natural looked bad with her fjord so she went to green and hated it, then started making the change to black. While I like that black goes with everything, I dislike how depressing large black things can be. This was one of the pictures that inspired me originally: https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRDPRd2jwDKMwotWpeJgQR7sOAEw_8PxUmSADMJzNA_WqVH4FhCKw

It’s a heavy enough cart that it sinks in the sand outdoor ring under its own weight, but pulls easily by one person across pavement or the light gravel of the barn’s parking area/driveway. It’s fairly easy to pull in the indoor ring footing but I can see it sinking with the addition of a driver. No maker name. I always thought easy entry only referred to the low riding entry-level carts often seen behind minis or ponies (like one I almost bought to break Java with, but turned out to be small pony length shafts, unlike what the woman’s measurements claimed).

would dark chocolate with tan (or a brassy gold) pinstriping and upholstery be suitable for pairing with my guy? I could still bring colour into my outfit, without going to colours I don’t particularly like. And I could wear a grey, tan, tweed, green, or even navy suit jacket. Same with the apron/lap robe (what’s the difference between the two?)

[QUOTE=goodhors;7273836]
Guess I will be the voice of dissent, with the linked vehicles not all being gigs. There is some similarity to OPs cart, shown in the seat having no box under it, straight shafts, various seat backs with rails and spindles, but a number of them are NOT gigs to begin with! They are just similar vehicles turned out nicely. Definitely would call a couple of them Road Carts, with the spring under seat on the axle, or other details. These are Road Carts:

http://www.leroypennysavernews.com/LynneBelluscioArticles/Images/Horse_Show.jpg

http://www.swphotography.co/Equestrian/Carriage-Driving-shows/2012-Bucks-County-Horse-Park/i-n9BWNwK/2/L/20120610_092729-L.jpg

They are lightweight, straight shafted, simple springs, with an open style of construction which makes it easy to fix or repair. Seat height is lower than the Gig seating, though not real low, and riding on the shafts or spring directly under seat fastened to the axle. Both nicely turned out, but they are not Gigs.

These are what I would call Gigs:

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/man-driving-horse-carriage-11012841.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QPBMDYXvMW4/TKtJqzRlrkI/AAAAAAAAAYk/RkxKLXjKcM8/s1600/AthletePecos.JPG

http://www.jamicostud.com/RB/RB%20Essex%20Show.jpg

Above vehicles have a boxy shape body, the curved or gig shafts with more hook to them. Better ride with more elaborate spring systems. Not similar to OPs vehicle. They are more formal vehicles, shown here with the correct harness using the wide Gig Saddles, full collars, no breeching showing, because a Gig uses a false breeching strap between the shafts, behind the horse. One horse I would mark down because he is using a breast collar. Gigs are usually weighty, so the full collar is more suitable. Driver and passengers are dressed in suits, have NICE hats, more formal in style of their clothing.

And I am going to let this one be a Gig by it’s spring system, which is more complicated than the springs of OPs cart. Gig saddle and full collar on the pony harness, though not using false breeching as all the other Gig photos have.

http://www.gazetteherald.co.uk/resources/images/2093730.jpg?type=gallery

I would not call the OPs vehicle a true Road Cart, because of the solid structure of the body. It is a nice looking cart, a bit of a mix of various styles, but a pleasing design overall. I would just go with it being an Easy Entry Cart with no specific name unless you can find the maker name. Shafts curve down under seat for front entry, has steps in front of the wheels, which is a trademark for the EE cart styles. It has no boxy body under or around the seat, no curved shafts with a more elaborate spring system to ease the ride. Doesn’t look the least heavy like gigs can be, so easy on the horse too.

On refinishing, I would suggest going for paint instead of stain. Most painted vehicles do not have the same kind of wood thru out, so grains don’t match if you can see them. Paint makes all the woods look the same. Paint can make a horse the “star” of the outfit as you go in front of the Judge by cart being a neutral the horse contrasts with. The gig pictures have various colored horses with dark vehicles, so the horse is what you see.

I would not try to match my horse, with vehicle color. I would worry about you being a big reddish blur way out in the ring with any distance from the Judge. Too matchy. Then if horse should change color, get sunburned, he might clash with vehicle! Sorry, I know that is not what you wanted to hear. I know several folks who did their “dream colors” on a vehicle put to the perfect horse, and then were horrified to see the show photos that had them as a big blur on the rail. No contrasts way out there. Sure different than how it looked up close with lovely contasting pinstripe and outfit!! They ended up repainting AGAIN so they didn’t disappear when on the rail or driving a Dressage test.

Lovely pinstriping can help set off the dark color (Welsh with top hatted driver) of horse and gig, but not overpower horse or Driver clothing. These appear to be UK photos, so clothing is mostly dark, even on the ladies. A light laprobe to go on a gentleman’s turnout, could be the neutral contrast for dark vehicle, dark suit. Tie to match the pinstripe.

If you like to be a bit more formal in clothing with the painted EE cart, you could go with navy blazer, tan pants, tan laprobe, your brown boots, wear the bowler hat. DO get the brim of bowler shaped, so it has some “style” to it. Not quite the deep dip front and back of the Saddlebred girls, but not flat on the bottom either.

I hate to disagree with Chewy, but russet harness is most correct in a stained vehicle with BROWN hardware, not ever used on a painted vehicle. Also vests only over the shirt, are only proper show attire on ladies. I am not sure what a “long sleeved vest” is, sounds like a coat to me. Probably NOT correct for a gentleman. Gentlemen always wear rather tailored jackets, nothing loose fitting.
My husband usually wears a brown jacket, when he shows. Goes well with our Bay horses and painted vehicle. Tan or gray laprobe, depending on his trousers color. Brown Fedora hat since our outfit is Informal, with less formal style vehicles.[/QUOTE]ok I am going to weigh in on this one. The Morgan with the breastcollar is correct for that vehicle because it is not axle draft and the swingle tree is higher. With a neck collar the angle would be incorrect.

. The other thing it is not a gig saddle nor does it have a sliding back band.i can’t look at photo while posting but I know the gig is small for this horse and shafts are lower than they should be. If correct height the shafts would also hit the collar if my memory serves me.

Op with your pony I would rather see a painted more formal vehicle than stained. I also think it would be easier to repaint then to try and get all cleaned for a stain. Also Celine at carriage driving essentials in CA is very knowledgeable on vehicles and turnouts. I think for 75.09 she will give you an accurate consult on what you have and how to redo it properly but definitely not a gig.

Easy entry is defined by a front entry that the shafts/body area curve down to make your entry easier

The horse you call a Morgan, needs to have the vehicle fixed to suit the horse’s size. Singletree is too high for breastcollar OR a full neck collar traces, to have a correct angle for pulling with this little horse. To be easier on the little horse, singletree needs to be lower, below the shaft crossbar, whether it also has axle draught or not. Traces need to be going up hill from singletree to trace buckle of short tugs or breastcollar during work.

Saddle is a Gig Saddle, by the width, appears to be 5 inches or more wide, to better spread the load of the vehicle and passengers. Gigs usually are not light weight vehicles. Having a sliding backband is a nice option, but not required on a Gig Saddle. I would raise the shaft loops, to prevent the shafts appearing to be lower in front than in the rear, give better balance to the vehicle. Curved shafts like that, need to ride higher on the saddle, than straight shafts so the points are at his point of shoulder. True Gig Shafts with the EXTREME hook in them, would have the shaft loops even higher, so tips are not down low in travel. None of the links have the true Gig Shafts with the extreme bend in the hook. Tips are curved outward, away from animal, as well as downward, with either style of curved or Gig shafts, so they don’t hit the collar of the working horse.

I am used to using the ADS (Anerican Driving Society) Pleasure Driving Rules when assessing a turnout like these. What the horse wears for Gig is shown on Page 71.

Road Cart rules for turnout of the horse and vehicle, are found on page 72. Clothing of Driver and passengers for turnout in various vehicles, Sporting, Formal, is found on pages 66 thru page 74. There is a LOT of information in this section, including colors, pinstriping, what kinds of hats go with different vehicles, extra equipment to carry. Correct bit to each vehicle, sewn in cruppers on a Gig harness, shape of the blinkers needed! Real easy to get confused listening to others in these picky details. Far better to read and KNOW the rules you will be showing under, then learn about details of being correct in your assessment of your own vehicle, horse, clothing and appropriate harness. The Rule book TELLS you what the Judge will be looking for. Other details or required equipment for certain classes, Cross Country drives and other sections of competition, all listed here in the Rule Book.

Rule Book for ADS is found on their site, but this should get you straight to it:

http://www.americandrivingsociety.org/12_ads_rulebook/ADS%20Rulebook-2012-(final)-01Jan12(revised)x2.pdf

As I said before, I think most of the Gig pictures are from UK competiton, just not what we see in USA showing. UK folks would be working under other Rules when they show.

For the OP, it appears that Road Carts have a lot of freedom in color choices. So painting your vehicle like the one in your link, is just fine to show in. On page 77 the Rule Book says to paint it to suit your individual tastes. I thought the vehicle in the link was quite attractive.

So sorry I went sideways, got a bit carried away in the Gig topic!

QUOTE=China Doll;7274655]ok I am going to weigh in on this one. The Morgan with the breastcollar is correct for that vehicle because it is not axle draft and the swingle tree is higher. With a neck collar the angle would be incorrect.

. The other thing it is not a gig saddle nor does it have a sliding back band.i can’t look at photo while posting but I know the gig is small for this horse and shafts are lower than they should be. If correct height the shafts would also hit the collar if my memory serves me.[/QUOTE]

Now I’m confused. Which link are people referring to as the Morgan? this one? http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QPBMDYXvMW4/TKtJqzRlrkI/AAAAAAAAAYk/RkxKLXjKcM8/s1600/AthletePecos.JPG (sorry, I seem to have gotten totally lost on that one, haha)

I do know that I’ll need to drop my swingletree on my cart to make it work for a neck collar, I’m just waiting for my trainer to return in the spring so she can help me figure out how much to drop it.

And no need to apologize for getting sidetracked! Like I said, I’m new to competition driving, and this is the first suitable-for-driving horse and vehicle I’ve owned. When people get sidetracked I learn things I never thought of asking about (because I never knew about them!) and I learn a lot more, including things that make me stop and think/rethink.

I’m going to look at talking to the lady at Carriage Driving Essentials and get a professional assessment before I do anything too drastic. I’d read the ADS rules (and am trying to get a copy of the rules for competition in my area because it sounds like some are ADS rules and some are various canadian organization rules and I’m lost as to where to find the canadian ones) but not knowing for sure what I had made it difficult to figure out which route to take for refinishing it, because as we’ve seen in this thread, I’ve had a lot of different opinions on what the heck I’ve got at the barn! haha! It’s hard to follow the rules when you’re not sure which ones to follow!

Hames

Are hames included in the “hardware colour must match”? or are they like bits in that they can be stainless even with brass on the rest of the harness?

Also, I’ve seen both tubular and solid buggy hames, is one style better than the other? (I’m assuming buggy hames are the style I want to go with a light cart)

I just learned that a dressage clinician who comes to my barn regularly is also a carded driven dressage and CDE judge, so I have emailed him with all of my questions and asked if I would be able to get a slot in his next clinic to have a chance to sit down with him, show him my pony and cart, and get his professional opinion first-hand. Fingers crossed it works out!

[QUOTE=Ceylon Star;7275197]
Are hames included in the “hardware colour must match”? or are they like bits in that they can be stainless even with brass on the rest of the harness?

Also, I’ve seen both tubular and solid buggy hames, is one style better than the other? (I’m assuming buggy hames are the style I want to go with a light cart)

I just learned that a dressage clinician who comes to my barn regularly is also a carded driven dressage and CDE judge, so I have emailed him with all of my questions and asked if I would be able to get a slot in his next clinic to have a chance to sit down with him, show him my pony and cart, and get his professional opinion first-hand. Fingers crossed it works out![/QUOTE]
Yes the link you posted is the one I am referring to. Yes the metals should match

http://www.drivingessentials.com/harness_essential_gig.php
http://www.coachmansdelight.com/CGuidePage.asp?pg=GUI2&k=2

These were 2 I could find showing the gig saddle is with sliding back and. Hunt and Freedmans give limited info on there sites