TWH: "No Market for the breed. . ."

[QUOTE=sourmilknightmares;4705688]
No, I agree. A well-bred, modern Walker is fabulous at doing what he was bred to do same as a cutting bred Quarter Horse might not make the best hunter. The person I quoted was talking about how she DID have a Walker that was dressage worthy and could not find a place within her state (or the next over I believe) where she should show her animal. That is why I would pass on a Walker, even one that could do exactly what I wanted, because I would have great difficulty finding anywhere where I could compete. It’s sad and hopefully one of those things we will see change one day.[/QUOTE]

If you want do Dressage you’re going to do walk-trot-canter 'cause that’s what Dressage is all about. If you want to do some dressage then you can do it on anything with four feet (including a steer)! :cool: I don’t find this odd or objectionable; it’s just how the rules are.

I’ve got a couple of Marchadors that have a very diagonal way of going and could probably do some Dressage, at least at the lower levels. But they are not going to be competitive beyond that as they weren’t bred for it. I’ve got a bunch of heartburn with Dressage as it’s become almost as big a circus as the Big Lick, but that’s a whole other discussion.

As far rail classes are concerned, a Walker ought to be as competitive as a TB or QH in most instances. Walkers can do Working Equitation, Cowboy Mounted Shooting, some of the Extreme Cowboy stuff, etc. Again, a road horse might not be competitive at the top levels of any of this stuff, but that’s a legacy of the type, not the breed.

Diversity and versitility are very PC in the human world, but in the equine world are more chimera than reality. Put another way, you can put a square peg into a round hole, but it’s tough on the peg, hole, and mallet. :wink:

G.

[QUOTE=pj;4705871]

[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;4704827]

For those of us who don’t know would someone please fill us in on this?[/QUOTE]

allright….written by me in 1999

after garnering support of all kinds of support (including money) from all kinds of flatshod people, they basically pissed on them in the end…

Tamara in TN

Where I am from there aren’t any Walkers, or very few, so, what is it that the ‘adverage Joe’ knows about Walkers? I’m sure it’s very different in many States, but when Tennessee Walker comes to mind the sad truth is the Big Lick horses are a World Class representative of the breed. That is reflected onto the breed itself.

ditto. You see a lot of people happily gaiting down the trails on Rocky Mountain horses, though. The only TWH I’ve ever seen in person was a “rescue” from the padded-shoe freakshow who had some serious physical and mental issues.

The dressage tests I’m doing are not square pegs in round holes. It is misleading to suggest the TWH would be asked to ride the USDF test. They are not. At the shows I’ve found willing to add either a gaited division or simply accept the NWHA test…the NWHA’s VERSION of the ‘real’ USDF test, is what the horse is scored against. In other words, no trotting.

Into B:

http://www.nwha.com/dressage/09IntroLevelTestB.pdf

Introducing the canter at Training Level:

http://www.nwha.com/dressage/09TrainingLevelTest1.pdf

And a first level test:

http://www.nwha.com/dressage/09FirstLevelTest1.pdf

From NWHA.com:

8.3.1 The Medium Walk
The medium walk is a marching pace in “four time”. Often, in the world of the gaited horse, the slow (normal horse) walk is referred to as a dog walk. In no case should the medium walk be “dog-like”. Rather, it is an energetic, marching gait. The horse is soft and giving through the poll and jaw, listening
to the aids, and has its hind end engaged. The horse should use its back and exhibit some overstride. Remember, the name of this gait is the medium walk.

8.3.2 Free Walk
At the free walk, the horse is allowed to lower and stretch out its head and neck. At this forward moving gait, the horse stretches forward and downward over its top line in search of contact. One does not throw away the reins, but rather allows the horse to take them as he stretches. The horse
must be able to listen to seat and legs for guidance and to maintain straightness. The free walk is often performed on the diagonal, which is the longest possible straight line in the arena. Steering with the hands is penalized.

8.3.3 Flat Walk/ Running walk
The flat walk is a four-beat marching pace with a regular rhythm. The flat walk, should be moved into without hesitation. The flatwalk is clearly a different gait from the medium walk, just as the trot is a clearly different gait in non-gaited dressage. Horses who do not exhibit a clear
intermediate gait must be severely penalized. The running walk is an extension of the flat walk, and will be discussed in section 8.4.3.

[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;4706035after garnering support of all kinds of support (including money) from all kinds of flatshod people, they basically pissed on them in the end…


"…put the little guy on the smallest possible pad…added an action device and made him wear a false tail… "

Tamara in TN[/QUOTE]

Well, he HAD to wear a pad to qualify, but it surely must be alot more than the addition of a fake tail and an action device that elicits such emotion in you. Are you telling me that had the tail and action device been eliminated you would have been accepting of His ride?

Publicity is a non issue for me. I might as well hate Parelli for marketing carrot sticks.

A horse that doesn’t trot can do “dressage” but can’t do “Dressage.” Maybe that’s why there’s a disconnect in recognizing scores.

I’ve watched some folks really stress their Walkers (and other gaited horses) trying to prove how “versitile” they were. IMO that’s just poor judgement on the part of the humans.

G.

ok, I hear you now. I can live with a little d :wink:

And yes, there are horses living a hard life trying to be what they are not. Not every QH can rope a cow and hold it, not every Arabian can cut it as an endurance horse. I’m just glad my guy proved he couldn’t cut the mustard as ‘cough cough’ Performance horse :slight_smile: but he sure is a fun trail horse. And dressage horse :wink:

[QUOTE=angie j;4706291]
Well, he HAD to wear a pad to qualify, but it surely must be alot more than the addition of a fake tail and an action device that elicits such emotion in you. Are you telling me that had the tail and action device been eliminated you would have been accepting of His ride?
Publicity is a non issue for me. I might as well hate Parelli for marketing carrot sticks.[/QUOTE]

I am saying that had it been about the “horse” they would have declined the requirements…

they padded the horse…period…
they padded the horse to enter the class
they padded the horse to enter the class to get publicity

they padded the horse to enter the class to get publicity for themselves and not the horses,or the principles behind the flatshod walking horses or the bloodlines of the flatshod walking horses…or the breeders of the flatshod walking horses or the hundreds of people who supported the effort…

they did it for themselves and no one else…

by caving in to the requirements of the class they made him a padded horse

now if that does not matter to you,
or that the horse has done nothing note worthy,
and has no note worthy sons,
and has no note worthy daughters,
and who was a color experiment to begin with,
and has contributed nothing to the genetics of a breed,
or the breed itself

except a publicity stunt 11 years ago…

then by all means breed to him “on principle”

Tamara in TN

angie he’s not a good flat shod horse, he’s average. But he’s colorful.

[QUOTE=katarine;4706313]
angie he’s not a good flat shod horse, he’s average. But he’s colorful.[/QUOTE]

I’m aware He’s adverage and He isn’t the horse I ended up choosing to breed, which I stated in the beginning. My horse isn’t going to win any championships either and is shown only limittedly for all of the reasons discussed.

On the other hand asking someone who has been opposed to the ‘rights and wrongs’ of the ride from the onset, is akin to asking someones ‘enemy’ for a character assessment on them.

I mean no disrespect to ‘anyones’ opinion. I do know that when the ‘adverage Joe’ (again) views that ride it makes a statement. It’s a statement I like. Perhaps one someone else doesn’t like, for an entirely different set of reasons.

[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;4706312]now if that does not matter to you,
or that the horse has done nothing note worthy,
and has no note worthy sons,
and has no note worthy daughters,[/QUOTE]

Now, had you started off with this statement, we would have had more grounds for reasoning on breeding Him, but you didn’t, you based your dislike on politics which is equil to my ‘liking’ him base on politics.

But Angie can you argue that the horse has in fact actually produced quality horses? Fantastic flat shod horses?

Wherever the statement falls in the argument doesn’t negate its truth.

I am new here and have nothing in common with this thread except I love and respect horses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqFeYu1CrjU&NR=1

Has anyone mentioned this youtube video…especially watch the horse in the background at 5 minutes and tell me this should not be stopped.

I hope there is a market for the breed. I have one for sale. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=angie j;4706399]

Now, had you started off with this statement, we would have had more grounds for reasoning on breeding Him, but you didn’t, you based your dislike on politics which is equil to my ‘liking’ him base on politics.[/QUOTE]

ummm no…I tried,in a polite way, to tell you that he was not the horse to breed to…and that you were using a skewed criteria for him…

that your basis of judging him as a stallion, based on an event that you were not even around for and you don’t even know the details of, is just wrong…

he was shown as a padded horse…a little padded to me, is like a little stoned or a little pregnant or a little sored or a little scarred

you are or you are not…you cannot have it both ways…

and time does not erase the details of this “majikal” event

Tamara in TN

[QUOTE=Janus;4706510]
I am new here and have nothing in common with this thread except I love and respect horses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqFeYu1CrjU&NR=1

Has anyone mentioned this youtube video…especially watch the horse in the background at 5 minutes and tell me this should not be stopped.[/QUOTE]

k so I watched the video. First off, let it be clear that I don’t like big lick and am definitely anti-soring. That said, I have to say that just because someone put a clip in a vid on youtube that shows a horse trip and almost fall on his face - you cannot say definitely that horse was a sored horse. My horse tripped one day and went so far down as to scrape his head in the arena sand. It was scarey as all hell. BUT… He wasn’t sored. He wasn’t wearing pads. He just wasn’t paying attention to his feet and he tripped and almost fell over. The horse in the video took a bad step. May have been due to being sored, may not. It’s not like we can examine the horse’s legs for scars or strange oders or whatever in a grainy video.

I’d be highly likely to trip and fall on my face wearing platform shoes even if they didn’t hurt my feet. That is all I’m sayin…

The details of the event are public record. I wasn’t at many events in history, as I mentioned earlier, it doesn’t make me unaware.

There are many things that you simply can have both ways. YOU are welcome to take sides and say “This way without varriation”, but I don’t see life that way. I can drink and not drink to excess. Some won’t drink at all; Some do nothing but.

Again, I understand you particular point of view. I’m clearly not as emotionaly attatched to it as you are. But again, I don’t think this horses ‘abilities’ are the issue with you, though, perhaps I’m wrong. If this was the Best Walker that ever glided over the face of this earth I believe your distaste would remain. You are welcome to that opinion.

[QUOTE=angie j;4706865]
T If this was the Best Walker that ever glided over the face of this earth I believe your distaste would remain. You are welcome to that opinion.[/QUOTE]

well, you do not know me as well as you think you do:)

if he was all that they would never have lowered him into a padded class…:wink:

but tell me then, how much “being padded” is ok, with you personally ?

Tamara in TN

[QUOTE=katarine;4706494]
But Angie can you argue that the horse has in fact actually produced quality horses? Fantastic flat shod horses?
.[/QUOTE]

That I will honestly say I don’t know, as I passed on Watchout before looking at his get. I decided on several and only proceeded indepthly looking at the final 2.

Ignorance is bliss. That was not a simple trip if you analyze it. The horse is sore…maybe not from soring…but he is hurting and is not able to balance his weight or move it back. I have ridden for a lot of years (50+) and had many a young or untrained horse trip so am aware of it happening but I see a very hurting animal there. This is an award winning presentation that ended up on YouTube so I don’t think it is your ordinary clip and someon would have called them on it if anything was untrue.

Walking Horses were originally developed mainly in the southeastern US in the 1800s as reliable comfortable all-purpose horses. BEFORE there was the TWHBEA, there were walking horses. Most people down here called them plantation horses, or plantation walkers because they were very favored by planters, foremen and overseers who had to travel all over the plantations checking on how the work was going-- this was before mechanized farming when it took gangs of people to do the work using teams of mules and even hand tools. Often they had to travel between plantations to check on the work-- that’s right many plantations were actually made up of large tracts that were not all in one place next to each other.

These walking horses were also favored by people who had to travel great distances over roads that could not always accomodate a buggy or wagon-- think circuit riding judges and preachers-- and even some doctors. Lawmen liked walkers too for mounts when they went out with a posse-- so did the slave catchers. Anyone whose business kept them in the saddle for long periods, or distances prized walkers becsue of the easy gaits that were quite brisk in most cases.

According to Dr. Womack, and Mr. Green, I believe, the first horse we know of with a documented name who performed the running walk was a horse called Bald Stockings. Now Bald Stockings lived in the 1830s – a full century BEFORE the THWBA, now the TWHBEA came into existance.

I’m not saying that people in Tennessee and even Kentucky were not breeding walkers-- these are well known horse producing states. BUT people throughout the South were breeding and producinig walking horses or plantation horses or plantation walkers. When the TN boys started their stud book-- a number of the foundation horses and the 00 horses came from states other than TN. Many of these horses were also already registered as Standardbreds or even Morgans.

Walkers were the original comfortable endurance horse in the US. And a well-bred, naturally gaited walker that is properly trained and prepared can compete successfully in long distance trail competitions or endurance rides.

Unlike the Spanish gaited breeds, walkers have calm forgiving natures-- you don’t have to worry about most well-bred experienced walkers jumping out from under you because a leaf floats by. I know the PP and PF affectionatos like their “brio” but I like a horse who is not so full of himself. And yes, I have ridden these horses- I own a PP that I can’t ride because he has shown symptoms of DSLD – a condition many PP breeders deny exists. I also have PF gelding that I don’t particularly enjoy riding becasue I can never fully relax on him–every leaf is a horse eating boogy out to get him.

Back to walkers. The problem, IMHO, started for the walkers when their breeders caught the show ring bug that had already infected the ASB breeders to some extent. But remember, in the early days most of these shows were county fair type shows where normally shod stallions, geldings and mares competed. Naturally, people wanted to breed their mares to a horse that had won some ribbons and was held by the judges to be a good example of the breed. Horses sired by a stallion “who had done something” or out of a mare with a show record always have brought more than horses by an unknown or out of an unknown - that’s just a fact-- people want the cachet of a “name brand.”.

Once there became a show world where horses were valued ONLY because of their show records, not because of any real world accomplishments, then stuff started to happen-- bad stuff. The problem with the TWH world is that the show world is what controls everything – and by that I mean the Big Lick show world-- the flatshod show horses have alweays been looked at as “also rans.” If you don’t believe me, look at the differnce in the sales prices on the whole and look at the difference in the stud fees on the whole.

As far as “Champagne Watchout”-- well I had already turned my back on ALL of the TWH show world before he came along. But I can understand someone’s desire to want to show their horse in the World Grand Championship Stake-- not just the plantation world grand championship. But all in all I view it as a sort of stunt and a kind of sell out-- an admission that flatshod isn’t as good as big lick by someone who was supposed to be a champion of the sound flatshod horse. That is just my humble opinion.

Anyway back to the question-- “Is there a market for the TWH?” I believe there will always be a market down here in the South for a well bred naturally gaited walking horse. People like me who want to ride a horse for pure pleasure will always treasure a good Walker.

Now as far as how you find a good walker, well that takes knowledge and patience and trying before buying. And it is a fact that some of the Big Lick freaks do somehow manage to still produce some naturally gaited confortable walkers-- but they also produce a lot of pacing fools.

And I have also seen some pacing fools that come from suposedly “pure non-big lick old time stock.” You have to know what you are looking at, and if you don’t then stay away from buying a young thing or a yearling-- buy an experienced horse that has had some miles put on it under saddle.

When choosing a horse to breed your mare to, you have to consider not only the stallion’s bloodlines, but his conformation and his gait and disposition as well as your mare’s to make the right chioce. And as for breeding for color-- well unless you are breeding for a color registry, it is never a good idea, IMHO, to choose a horse just because you like its color-- if what you really want is a well gaited horse-- which IMHO, would be the primary reason you are looking to buy or breed a walking horse.

Remember the walking horse has always had the potential to be mixed gaited-- even Allen F-1 (Black Allen) was said to have been known to pace when driven-- that is why he was sold in the first place-- his breeder wanted Standardbred trotters. One thing you can say is that most walkers bred to another walker, will produce a walking horse, but the quality of the gaits in the offspring can vary greatly even from foal to foal of the same sire and dam-- just like race horses-- there are racing greats who have full and half siblings that never “do much” on the track.

A good rule of thumb when looking for a good walker is never to say never-- I have known several people who “rescued” big lick horses and ended up with very well-gaited flatshod pleasure horses-- some that actually had a good show career and went on to produce other winning flatshod walkers. I’ve known other people who were bitterly disappointed at the pacy gait their rescued walker possessed no matter what bit they tried or how many miles they rode or how many training videos they watched from “well known” flat shod horse trainers.

The first walker I ever rode was a registered TWH at a lesson stable in Biloxi, MS. I never knew his registered name-- he was called Big Red-- he was a very kind patient big red chestnut gelding. He had never been anywhere near a show ring, but he taught countless children how to ride for the ring-- and also he went out on trails, too. (This was in the 50s before the padded and chained big lick mania had fully taken hold.)

And as far as padded horses not making good plantation show horses, well I know lots of winning flatshod horses who were “taken down” and became good plantation and liteshod show horses. I have also owned several winning plantation or liteshod horses had who had padded up horses all over their papers. One that comes to mind is Tin Lizzie- an own daughter of Sun’s Delight D (padded up show WGC) who was my son’s flatshod horse who won all kinds of classes – including versatility classes like pole bending, jumping, barrel racing and western pleasure two-gait in addition to the regular saddleseat classes. Another good flatshod horse we bred is a son of Tin Lizzie-- Double Delight of Pride (originally registered as Hamilton’s Legacy) who was exported to Germany and stands at stud there. He has get winning in the European show rings now. Well he has both WGC Pride of Midnight HF and WGC Sun’s Delight D on his papers- more than once, and he is producing good solid natural walking horses.

There are really no hard and fast rules for picking a good walker. To paraphrase Forest Gump, “A walking horse is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you’ll get.”