I see this off and on in reading about them and only one explanation, that they can’t be sored…
A) what do they mean by they can’t be? They sull up, they scar up, what? Don’t get me wrong, I’m anti soring…but curious about the backstory.
b) is that all there is to the ‘prejudice’ against the horse?
I’m trying to learn more about the breed, I’ve found "The Echo of Hoofbeats by Womack as a book in my Amazon cart, and one by Joe Webb…any others you’d recommend?
[QUOTE=katarine;4669077]
I’m trying to learn more about the breed, I’ve found "The Echo of Hoofbeats by Womack as a book in my Amazon cart, and one by Joe Webb…any others you’d recommend?[/QUOTE]
better than those, contact Leon Oliver at Brown Shop Road Farm…he was after all there for it all and won’t mind answering questions about the old days
Tamara in TN
[QUOTE=katarine;4669077]
A) what do they mean by they can’t be? They sull up, [/QUOTE]
What is sull up?
[QUOTE=Curiously;4669261]
What is sull up?[/QUOTE]
it is to:
“suck back” in the western
'be nappy" in the british
“sull up” is actually old southern dialect for “become sullky(sullen) from anger and refuse a task”
even sored a horse must move forward
Tamara in TN
katherine-- Where are you reading “no Pride of Midnight breeding’” and did you read that horses by him can’t be sored? Are you referring to horse sale ads that brag that there is “no Pride of Midnight” bloodlines in the horse for sale, or what?
And as for whether a horse can be sored or not-- bloodlines have nothing to do with that-- any horse can be sored by someone who knows the “tricks of the trade.”
And I’ve seen plenty of big lick horses perform sored over the years-- and many were sons of Pride of Midnight-- grandsons of Midnight Sun. I know some were sored because they won their class only to be written up for failing the sorenes test – AFTER the class.
This was one reason my late husband and I quit showing our flatshod horses in the NSHRC-santioned shows after 1987. We went to competing in all-breed shows that did not have ANY classes for the big lick – (padded up and/or chained) show horses. I believe the walking horse industry had taken to calling these “performance horses” in more recent years.
I know at one time, various proponents of stallions sired by Pride Of Midnight (especially those promoting their horses as natural flatshod horses) made claims that their horses were so natural they could not be sored because then they would not perform their natural running walk. I looked at that as a clever “marketing tool” to attract naive mare owners to their stud.
As for reading about the history of the breed, Womack book and the book by Ben Greene are good, but the Web book is a how-to primer for showing horses with pads and chains.
I don’t have a political dog in this fight, elysian. This is a plain old ordinary question. Why do I see ‘No Pride of Midnight blood’ in various places. Why is it noteworthy?
Tamara I don’t have a bucket of fire cracker laden questions, so this could be the proverbial fart in church and I’m too ignorant to know it :winkgrin: it’s just one that popped to mind in looking around at horses and a phrase I see here and there. Maybe I’ll call him. But your thoughts and comments are most welcome, too!
Example, I know why a QH seller would say “No Impressive breeding” that would mean, no HYPP.
So it is just a simple question: Why mention ‘No Pride of Midnight blood.’ Why is that noteworthy?
By ‘sull up’ I mean does a sored POM horse get sulky and suck back, get nappy, etc. So a sulled up ‘sored’ horse is about the last thing you’d want. So, I was guessing at why.
I don’t have a political dog in this fight, elysian. This is a plain old ordinary question. Why do I see ‘No Pride of Midnight blood’ in various places. Why is it noteworthy?
Tamara I don’t have a bucket of fire cracker laden questions, so this could be the proverbial fart in church and I’m too ignorant to know it :winkgrin: it’s just one that popped to mind in looking around at horses and a phrase I see here and there. Maybe I’ll call him. But your thoughts and comments are most welcome, too!
Example, I know why a QH seller would say “No Impressive breeding” that would mean, no HYPP.
So it is just a simple question: Why mention ‘No Pride of Midnight blood.’ Why is that noteworthy?
By ‘sull up’ I mean does a sored POM horse get sulky and suck back, get nappy, etc. So a sulled up ‘sored’ horse is about the last thing you’d want. So, I was guessing at why.
[QUOTE=katarine;4669769]
Tamara I don’t have a bucket of fire cracker laden questions, so this could be the proverbial fart in church and I’m too ignorant to know it :winkgrin: it’s just one that popped to mind in looking around at horses and a phrase I see here and there. Maybe I’ll call him. But your thoughts and comments are most welcome, too!
that man can tell you more about our horses in 30 min, than I could in 2 weeks…there were lots of POM horses in the long ago…
now it could be that his get did not pass on anything in particular of note so the line fades away after time…if a stallion is not much of a line stamper then he will fade away of course despite a fancy/famous daddy…
there are others I have heard say, that POM was the “padded” son of Midnight Sun (be sure you wrinkle your nose properly when you say it for greatest accuracy;))and that there were other “flat” sons that were preferable…
ummm well, from about 1946-1970 none really spring to mind;)…if you were showing and going you were padded, period…no one fiddled with the stepping pacers (hell that’s why we have all the cousin registries for all those other animals)
besides the sons of Merry Go Boy were more inclined to go flat…as they were not as big or flashy…but he was a great mare maker…of course that cross went both ways… and you can’t say no POM anywhere considering the fame of Generator siring over 2300 colts in his lifetime
my first registered walking mare was Shadows Meda ,you will know her as the mother of Generators Sonata many times lite shod WGC:)
Tamara in TN
The only time I’ve seen a mention of “no Pride of Midnight” is in reference to breeding horses - as in a stallion with no Pride of Midnight in his line would make a nice outcross with Pride of Midnight-bred mares.
I’ve seen it mentioned before, too, with popular sires in other breeds.
Kat, I’m not sure owning just one TWH makes me a peep, but my impression has always been that they say that because of breeding – to make it clear that the horse has other bloodlines, from a linebreeding and/or inbreeding perspective. Somewhere along the line I heard that. Don’t know from who…
Katarine, I have no idea what “no POM” is all about! If you find out please let us know… I only know he’s in a lot of pedigrees. 
Maybe they meant that that particular line was too smart to allow themselves to be sored (put up a fight)… :lol:
In the good old days Walking Horses were known for being lunkheads–they were heavy boned, had a mind of their own and their heads were not too pretty, but could they gait. Years ago they started to breed for pretty, but the gait pretty much went out the window and now they’re much more docile (all the better for someone wanting to abuse them)…
I’ll be waiting for your explanation of “no POM” breeding in the future!
I have the Joe Webb book and I find it interesting, but downright scary in many parts! It’s amazing what lengths people will go to to achieve their version of the “ideal” specimen. 
No POM means that the horse would be a good match with a POM horse. So many walkers have atleast one POM breeding in them, lots ofthem have two.
It can also be a heritage thing, can’t remember exactly how the heritage thing works but I do know all of the heritage horses I’ve ridden have NOT had POM anywhere in their lines and were very proud of it.
I think it’s just a personal preference thing, just like how some people doesn’t like the Generator horses, some don’t like the Pusher bred horses, ect.
katherine- Sorry you took my answer to be so “political.” The fact is, if you look at the sons of Midnight Sun, you will see that Pride of Midnight HF, and in turn many of his sons where the most prolific and most heavily -bred walker stallions in recent times. Pride’s Generator, Pride’s Gold Coin, etc. all come to mind.
At one time the “recipe” for producting a good walker was thought to be to breed Midnight Sun or a son of his to a Merry Boy or Merry Go Boy mare.
In looking at two of Midnight Sun’s sons, it was said that Sun’s Delight D produced better daughters than he did sons, and that POM produced better sons than daughters when you were producing horses for the show ring.
One POM son’s that was heavily campaigned as a flat shod horse, and bred quite a bit was The Pride Piper. Another POM son who stood in Texas for awhile was Pride’s Red Light, who was shown as a padded horse when he was young, but who later produced some good natural walking horses.
My late husband and I owned Red Light AFTER he was retired in GA as a big lick horse. We owned his half-brother Robert’s Delight (Harlinsdale Farm bred by Sun’s Delight D), and we bought Red Light because we liked Robert’s get so well. They shared the same dam Midnight Melody E-- a daughter of Midnight Sun, and life-long Harlinsdale Farm brood mare. (Harlinsdale Farm is where Midnight Sun lived, stood, and died and where he is buried.)
We and some other exhibitors had several good flat shod show walkers from the bloodlines of both Robert and Red Light. We also had a couple of daughters and granddaughters of Sun’s Delight D. who did well in the plantation and liteshod classes. One of the best horses we produced, Double Delight of Pride, is a successful stallion in Germany, where there are only flat shod walking horses. (His sire Hamilton’s Delight was a grandson of both Sun’s Delight D and POM – his sire was Robert’s Delight and his dam was Pride’s Nantessa, while his dam Tin Lizzie was a daughter of Sun’s Delight D.)
There is a tradition that some lines just “nick” better than others. It happens that most of the most heavily bred stallions since the 1970s have been the horses who made their name in the big lick show ring. Many walkers have Midnight Sun “top and bottom” on their papers, meaning both their sire and their dam have him in their lines. Now, many walkers also have POM “top and bottom.”
As far as POM being the “padded” Son of Midnight Sun – well most of Midnight Sun’s sons were shown in pads at least sometime in their careers-- if they were show horses in Middle Tennessee or the Deep South - becasue that is how walkers were shown at most of the shows-- and that is how a horse had to be shod if you wanted to show him in the World Grand Championship Stake (the last class of of the night on the last Saturday of the Celebration) Flat shod horses just were not allowed in that class-- until someone (I can’t remember the family’s name) was brave enough in the
1990s or early 200s, I believe, to enter their flat shod shod horse in that class despite being strongly urged not to do so by “the establishment.” The family has a website that goes into great detail about all of this.
I believe that there have been only four WGCs that did NOT have the bloodline of Midnight Sun through one of his sons since the 1960s. Sorry, but I can’t recall off-hand who these are.
Anyway, in recent years some people have gone to great lengths to preserve bloodlines that don’t even have much if any Midnight Sun (through any of his sons or daughters) in them. This is hard to do, but it is possible.
There is one camp of flat shod people who swear by the “Chance” horses who are descended from Last Chance bred by Mr. Dement. The Chance horses I’ve known were all good natural walkers.
I am by no means THE authority on the TWH, but I have ridden and shown them since the 1950s, and my late husband’s family had plantation walkers in the early 1900s-- their horses were ATR registered just like Black Allan F-1were his contemporaries.
When the TWH breed was being organized in the 1930s, his uncle was “invited” to have his stock considered for registration, but declined because he said he “didn’t see the need to pay some boys from Tennessee good money for them to tell me what I already know-- that I have good plantation walkers.” – that is his quote, not mine.
Getting back to POM-- some old-timers have said that he had a pretty disagreeable disposition and was more apt to sull up than some of the other of MS’s get. MS had a reputation of being a very agreeable horse. But any horse is subject to “sull up” even if soring isn’t the issue. Sometimes a girth could be bothering him, or it could be hot and he feels he has worked enough or you try a new bit he doesn’t like. Foals often sull up when you are trying to halter train them. It’s sort of a universal horse reaction to something they just don’t want to do that minute.
Any horse of any breed can decide to “sull up.” And Tamara is correct-- “sull up” is probably a pretty universal horse term used throughout the South to describe a horse or mule that becomes sullen and doesn’t want to do what is asked of him or her. I was born in Mississippi and have lived in Louisiana most of my life-- and that’s the only term I’ve heard used to describe that particular attitude and behavior.
[QUOTE=Cherry;4669927]
In the good old days Walking Horses were known for being lunkheads–they were heavy boned, had a mind of their own and their heads were not too pretty, but could they gait. Years ago they started to breed for pretty, but the gait pretty much went out the window and now they’re much more docile (all the better for someone wanting to abuse them)…
No-- actually Cherry-- walkers have always been known for their gentle, docile and willing dispositions, in general. They were originally an all-purpose saddle horse. They were said to be stout enough to be hitched to the plow all week, but well gaited enough to ridden to town or in the show on Saturday night, and docile enough to be hitched to the buggy to take the family to church on Sunday.
My late husband’s mother and sisters used to ride walkers five miles into school, and five miles back-- if walkers as a breed had been such stubborn lunkheads, I don’t think they would have been used as girls’ school mounts.
Strolling Jim, the first WGC walker had been hitched to the plow much of his life, and was already gelded when he was “discovered” and turned into a show horse – that’s why he had no descendants. Most people don’t want stubborn lunk heads as plow horses-- if they are willing to put up with stubborn, they use mules, which can stand the heat better.
It is true that many of the early walkers tended to be stocky with coarse heads, but they were not stubborn, and hard to handle as a breed. Though I do believe that Merry Boy had a reputation as being a mean stallion, difficult to ride.
It is also true that in the early days-- before all the soring started-- much more attention was paid to how a horse gaited than to how he looked, so there were some pretty coarse looking walkers out there. In fact, walkers that showed were looked down on as the “country cousins” of the more elegant and refined Am. Saddlebreds that often had their own classes at the same shows. (The Dixie Jubilee 1937-2005 is an example of this shared kind of show.)
But in truth, as early as the 1940s there were “pretty” walkers-- just look at Merry Go Boy. Another pretty walker was Wartrace. Midnight Sun was of the more heavy and coarse type than either of these two horses.
I really don’t think any planned effort was taken to breed more docile walkers so they could be sored more easily. I do know that there was an effort to try to breed some of the “coarseness” out of walkers-- that is why the Midnight Sun sire- Merry Go Boy dam cross was popular-- both were well gaited and Merry Go Boy bloodlines added refinement – made for “prettier” heads.
[QUOTE=Cherry;4669927]
“In the good old days Walking Horses were known for being lunkheads–they were heavy boned, had a mind of their own and their heads were not too pretty, but could they gait. Years ago they started to breed for pretty, but the gait pretty much went out the window and now they’re much more docile (all the better for someone wanting to abuse them)…”
No-- actually Cherry-- walkers have always been known for their gentle, docile and willing dispositions, in general. They were originally an all-purpose saddle horse. They were said to be stout enough to be hitched to the plow all week, but well gaited enough to ridden to town or in the show on Saturday night, and docile enough to be hitched to the buggy to take the family to church on Sunday.
My late husband’s mother and sisters used to ride walkers five miles into school, and five miles back-- if walkers as a breed had been such stubborn lunkheads, I don’t think they would have been used as girls’ school mounts.
Strolling Jim, the first WGC walker had been hitched to the plow much of his life, and was already gelded when he was “discovered” and turned into a show horse – that’s why he had no descendants. Most people don’t want stubborn lunk heads as plow horses-- if they are willing to put up with stubborn, they use mules, which can stand the heat better.
It is true that many of the early walkers tended to be stocky with coarse heads, but they were not stubborn, and hard to handle as a breed. Though I do believe that Merry Boy had a reputation as being a mean stallion, difficult to ride.
It is also true that in the early days-- before all the soring started-- much more attention was paid to how a horse gaited than to how he looked, so there were some pretty coarse looking walkers out there. In fact, walkers that showed were looked down on as the “country cousins” of the more elegant and refined Am. Saddlebreds that often had their own classes at the same shows. (The Dixie Jubilee 1937-2005 is an example of this shared kind of show.)
But in truth, as early as the 1940s there were “pretty” walkers-- just look at Merry Go Boy. Another pretty walker was Wartrace. Midnight Sun was of the more heavy and coarse type than either of these two horses.
I really don’t think any planned effort was taken to breed more docile walkers so they could be sored more easily. I do know that there was an effort to try to breed some of the “coarseness” out of walkers-- that is why the Midnight Sun sire- Merry Go Boy dam cross was popular-- both were well gaited and Merry Go Boy bloodlines added refinement – made for “prettier” heads.
That would be Mrs Jennie Jackson and her horse Champagne Watchout, who is a no POM breeding as well, and is actually performing at the WEG this year.
Even most horses that can claim no POM still go back to Midnight Sun at some point 
We’re all related…
when the TWH breed was being organized in the 1930s, his uncle was “invited” to have his stock considered for registration, but declined because he said he “didn’t see the need to pay some boys from Tennessee good money for them to tell me what I already know-- that I have good plantation walkers.” – that is his quote, not mine.
:yes: ah yes,the inspections of the “00” (double ought) mares…now that is old school:)
Tamara in TN
Elysian I’m sorry if I misread your tone…I just wasn’t sure what you were driving at, asking me where I’d read it, or what? (your words). That just sounded kinda smart to me, like I was asking a baited question.
I see it in many of the sales ads.
I see it in a write up of the horse on Walker’s West web site.
I see it in a quote from the Echo of Hoofbeats book.
I thought, what is it about THIS horse that folks would be inclined to point out in so many places and ways, no POM. It seems like there’s something to it. To turn it inside out, why don’t I see ‘No Sun’s Delight D breeding’ over and over in the marketplace?
I really think because it’s a much more rare thing for a horse to not have POM…off the top of my head I can think of three (and that’s only because I know two of them are heritage horses, and the other I looked up last night!)
Now I’ve never really heard of POM referred to in any way other than for breeding purposes or in a heritage eligible horses, so I’ve always assumed it was just for those reasons…but now I’m curious if there’s another one
I got this email about someone wanting to get rid of this TWH in KY. Yours for the $150 cost of gelding him.
-----Original Message-----
To: “Theresa” <bhfer@earthlink.net>,
“BH rescue list” <BHF_Equine_Rescue@yahoogroups.com>
From: “Susan Sefscik” <rockinhorseretirement@dishmail.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 12:40:31 -0500
Subject: [BHFER] FW: Horse needs home in KY
PLEASE CIRCULATE. THANKS.
Sue
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Paulette M. Klein pmkleinky@earthlink.net
To: Paulette M. Klein <pmkleinky@earthlink.net>
Sent: Mon, February 8, 2010 12:21:30 PM
Subject: Cute Horse
All,
My neighbor has a 3 year old Tennessee Walker gelding that he doesn’t want. In fact, he wants it gone! No money to keep it and no plans to ride him. He’ll sell it for about $150.00 which would cover the cost of gelding but nothing else. Like I said, he just wants it gone…
The boy has no formal training but is gentle. He’s pretty classy looking with a blaze and 4 white stockings. Neighbor said he was current in vaccinations but there is no coggins. No papers either. I think this boy will make a nice little trail horse. He’s pretty handsome and very sturdy – even though his hooves are white, they are solid. He has nice conformation and he gaits in the field. If I didn’t have 8 horses to work on my own farm I would take him.
The neighbor has no fence and so he gets out all the time. Horse is in good condition but not sure he receives regular care. He receives no attention and perhaps that’s the reason he escapes all the time.
Please contact me if you are interested.
Paulette
859-588-3394
P.S. For those of you who do not work or ride TW horses, perhaps you have friends that do and are willing to take him. I just want him to have a good home and someone to love him!!
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