[QUOTE=Bluey;8673477]
Now, you hear when that happens, the whole track becomes very somber, it is a tragedy for all, but it really, at least decades ago, was very rare.[/QUOTE]
But was it rare decades ago or was it that with the lack of social media you just didn’t know about it?
I don’t know Maryland racing laws but I am very convinced that both with be necropsied to learn more about what happened even if not mandated by law.
I was flamed on Coth years ago for saying that many horses died in races and in training. Then the study came out about 2 years after that, with just the racing deaths, and some Cothers in the biz of racing claimed they did not know that. So I guess they were really dense to not see the racing deaths, much less the deaths on the track in training. (Breakdowns equal deaths usually)
Horses are run too young, too fast, and on too hard surfaces. I used to love racing but after Ruffian, I decided that GA did not need racing like it had become. Even Penny Tweedy agreed after the Eight Belles fiasco and that Breeders’ Club day when 4 or 5 horses died. And poor Barbaro, what were there, 28 breaks/fractures in that one leg? That is not “normal” wear and tear, it’s cruel. Take away the drugs days before races and then examine the horses. Don’t ruin 2 year olds by running them so much. (My last mare ran as a 3, 4, and 5 year old before I bought her.)
I know that horses died back in the days of Native Dancer and Needles, but not like it has become today. I love TBs, owned 3 ottb mares over the decades, but I hate to see those spindly legged colts and fillies run.
And I’m not a novice. I followed racing from childhood. One of the men who worked for my father raised his race horses in GA and ran them in FL and I got to skip school to see them often. We raced our own horses as kids and teens. And I spent years at the tracks on weekends when I lived in other states.
[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8673490]
But was it rare decades ago or was it that with the lack of social media you just didn’t know about it?
I don’t know Maryland racing laws but I am very convinced that both with be necropsied to learn more about what happened even if not mandated by law.[/QUOTE]
The breakdowns were not nearly as frequent in the 50s and 60s and 70s. Now too many people breeding and racing. It really was much better when it was the Sport of Kings and not the anyone can breed anything and run it to death times of today. And to my knowledge, there is no requirement for a necropsy. Your horse breaks down in the track in race or in training, you have vet kill it, you haul it off. Dead horse.
There is plenty of research on TB race horses, so those who wish to spew percentages can surely find something to use for back up.
A sloppy track is very similar to a fast track. ""We found that the kinematics of the stride, measured with force plates and cinematography, was very much the same for a very, very dry track as it was for a very, very wet track. Basically, when it’s very wet (16 percent moisture content) the horse steps clear down through the mud—the mud is very sloppy. The foot goes on down to a very hard surface underneath. The impact and hardness of the track is therefore the same. The very wet surfaces (16 percent moisture) are very muddy—the horse sinks down and slips around. "
archive.ctba.com/03magazine/sep/HORSECARESEPT.pdf
Jockey Club Equine Injury Database - this past year there was a 14% decline in fatalities. Lots more for you to look at on this site.
http://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp?section=Resources&area=10&story=897
Horses that race as 2 yos “may have better musculoskeletal health…”
www.ovrevoll.no/PageFiles/202282/eftbanewsltr_9_2013.doc
Who cares what people think when there is valid research available to review. There is nobody on this thread who has enough experience or knowledge to be considered an expert on this subject.
[QUOTE=LaurieB;8673475]
Speaking as someone who has been involved in Thoroughbred horse racing and breeding far longer and in greater depth than you, I take offense at every single thing you said.
Seriously? Your expert opinion is based on the fact that you once attempted to race one horse? If you hadn’t given up so quickly you might have met some of the good people in horse racing. But I guess it was easier to quit and spout off here than to take the time to learn what the TB industry is actually all about. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Ma’am that is not my only experience. DW oversees racing and I have been around racing for many, many years. You spouting off that you know my experience is really jumping to conclusion without knowing nothing about me and or my experience.
[QUOTE=Jim R;8673523]
Ma’am that is not my only experience. DW oversees racing and I have been around racing for many, many years. You spouting off that you know my experience is really jumping to conclusion without knowing nothing about me and or my experience.[/QUOTE]
“Been around”, and “oversees” does not trump LaurieB’s experience.
This hand to LaurieB!!
[QUOTE=tuppysmom;8673239]
Last figures that I saw had AQHA horses as the highest numbers in kill pens. They breed, and register, many more AQHA every year than they do TBs.[/QUOTE]
I would just like to repeat this for anyone reading. Please take note. Read it again if you didn’t comprehend.
It’s not a contest. >_>
You can have a valid opinion on something without having a freaking PhD on the subject. I’ve never been on a forum so aggressive about “proving your expertise”, especially since it’s the Internet and anyone can make up any kind of background if they wished to.
I have not enjoyed racing since Eight Belles.
Breed =/= sport
There are tb that aren’t even breed for racing, they just aren’t as frequent to see.
[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8673595]
“Been around”, and “oversees” does not trump LaurieB’s experience.
This hand to LaurieB!![/QUOTE]
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/05/the-kentucky-derby-and-the-slow-death-of-horse-racing/256621/
Older article but some good points.
At least I will get to see this sport go down the toilet in my lifetime.
The casinos are making racing irrelevant, and soon they will not have to subsidize racing.
[QUOTE=blue&blond;8673602]
I would just like to repeat this for anyone reading. Please take note. Read it again if you didn’t comprehend.[/QUOTE]
Aqha does have the biggest numbers, but not in any one particular sporT do these horses all get dumped from. I was clearly pointing out sport, not breed. Reading comprehension goes a long, long way.
[QUOTE=Jim R;8673409]
…Let’s just start with SB’s. They do a great job rehoming, where would the Amish get their horses if not for the SB industry.[/QUOTE]
And I can GUARANTEE you, Amish-owned StdBs are not humane rehoming! I know this from personal first-hand experience. 
[QUOTE=Jim R;8673161]
Is the sport any different than others? Yes
Look at the age they start these horses, look how they break down. Anybody that starts horses at the age they start TB race horses does not care about the well being of the horse. It is all about where the big money is and how quick can I start to recoup it. 90% of trainers are the lowest of low and 99% of owners don’t have a clue.
I bred a mare and got the baby to the track, never again, knowing what I know now. DW deals with these scum bags everyday and knows what they do to these horses. Trainers that are chemists by trade, come on, horse racing is a disgusting business. You meet an honest, good, caring person in the business it is a big deal.
Funny we were discussing the young horse classes in Dressage the other day and we think they are asking to much from 4 and 5 year olds in the young horse classes.
I did not want to go down this road and get in this discussion but to late now.
Somebody saying a filly broke both it’s legs on a perfectly good track. Imagine that a FILLY breaking down.
Nobody that starts horses at that age cares anything for the well being of the horse.[/QUOTE]
All the studies I’ve ever read on TB development/growth have said that their legs have not fused (maybe wrong term for joint development?) at age 2. And breeding horses with spindly legs like Barbaro’s legs does not help. Doping and running doesn’t help either. Eight Belles, 2 broken fetlocks? Barbara’s multiple fractures?
Here I am agreeing with Jim R on something. Hell has frozen over. But Jim R is right. The TB 2 yr old runners are analogous to the situation with warmbloods and the krazy Kother who wanted to over jump Cloudy when he was a young WB. They mature even more slowly than TBs, so I was fortunate to find that out before he was ruined. Thanks to an Irish sports horse breeder and my vet. (KKother thought Cloudy was going to be her ticket to the A circuit. 1/2 TB, 20% Arab, didn’t mature till he was 7 or 8 yoa.)
[QUOTE=RodeoFTW;8673617]
Aqha does have the biggest numbers, but not in any one particular sporT do these horses all get dumped from. I was clearly pointing out sport, not breed. Reading comprehension goes a long, long way.[/QUOTE]
When those numbers are compiled, “quarter horse” is an assumption, horses counted didn’t come with registration papers.
Many/most were grade horses of unknown ancestry, “of quarter horse type”.
[QUOTE=Bluey;8673477]
Just curious, what about quarter horse racing?
What do you mean?
Do you know about quarter horse racing?
Barrel racer’s numbers are growing by leaps and bounds.
They are snatching any and all that is thru running.
In fact, they are not enough for the demand, they bring very nice prices.
Now, maybe that is what you mean, that they end up becoming a barrel racer, with the best nutrition they can have, all kinds of vet care and chiro and massage and swimming, but oh, my, they are not but “barrel racers”.
I will say, I was training and racing horses, TBs and AQHA, for 12 years and in all that time, how lucky, never was where a horse broke down.
Now, you hear when that happens, the whole track becomes very somber, it is a tragedy for all, but it really, at least decades ago, was very rare.
I don’t know about racing today, but since all horse care has improved, I would think that is reflected in horse racing also.
Not sure why those horses died, but one important difference, they were under the eye of everyone, unlike when some horse out in a pasture has an accident or out competing where it doesn’t make the news.
I wonder if that has something to do with why all the furor now?[/QUOTE]
No furor about quarter horse racing, Bluey - the comment was in response to Jim R, who seemed to want to throw TB racing under the bus for all ills, even asking what other breed races.
Perhaps I should just ignore his posts. So many of his statements in his arguments make no sense.
[QUOTE=Jim R;8673615]
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/05/the-kentucky-derby-and-the-slow-death-of-horse-racing/256621/
Older article but some good points.
At least I will get to see this sport go down the toilet in my lifetime.
The casinos are making racing irrelevant, and soon they will not have to subsidize racing.[/QUOTE]
So your point is? You know more about reading articles? I don’t think so…
Regarding 2 year olds breaking down less often than 3 year olds (as previously discussed), examinations done on the broken bones almost always show a pre-existing, slight stress fracture in the area. The breakdown is the result of the final stress that the bone couldn’t tolerate. The breakdown that doesn’t show some kind of pre-existing fracture is less common.
It makes sense that 3 year olds, who have had a longer career than the 2 year olds, would have already developed the wear and tear that could predispose them to breaking down.
[QUOTE=Mardi;8673668]
Regarding 2 year olds breaking down less often than 3 year olds (as previously discussed), examinations done on the broken bones almost always show a pre-existing, slight stress fracture in the area. The breakdown is the result of the final stress that the bone couldn’t tolerate. The breakdown that doesn’t show some kind of pre-existing fracture is less common.
It makes sense that 3 year olds, who have had a longer career than the 2 year olds, would have already developed the wear and tear that could predispose them to breaking down.[/QUOTE]
The studies I read where of horses started as twos or threes.
The ones started as twos, their body loaded for the coming physical work, grew right into it as the athletes that were going to be later, so well fit for the task.
The ones started as threes were more mature physically, but without having been trained for the task at hand, were more apt to have more injuries, small that the numbers of those with injuries were related to the numbers trained.
Just as a gymnast that starts at 5 training will at 12 be a top gymnast, but the same kid, if started at 10, will rarely get to be as good as the one that has those years to prepare for that activity with the right training for it, the mind an body primed for that as it grows and matures brings it up to it’s inherited potential.
The studies were following with physical parameters as the horses were training, you can measure the differences, more bone density, better overall fitness, which makes for a better prepared individual.
[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;8673635]
All the studies I’ve ever read on TB development/growth have said that their legs have not fused (maybe wrong term for joint development?) at age 2. And breeding horses with spindly legs like Barbaro’s legs does not help. Doping and running doesn’t help either. Eight Belles, 2 broken fetlocks? Barbara’s multiple fractures?
Here I am agreeing with Jim R on something. Hell has frozen over. But Jim R is right. The TB 2 yr old runners are analogous to the situation with warmbloods and the krazy Kother who wanted to over jump Cloudy when he was a young WB. They mature even more slowly than TBs, so I was fortunate to find that out before he was ruined. Thanks to an Irish sports horse breeder and my vet. (KKother thought Cloudy was going to be her ticket to the A circuit. 1/2 TB, 20% Arab, didn’t mature till he was 7 or 8 yoa.)[/QUOTE]
So link your studies. And no, 2 yo race horses are not fully mature. Duh.
[QUOTE=RodeoFTW;8673612]
It’s not a contest. >_>
You can have a valid opinion on something without having a freaking PhD on the subject. I’ve never been on a forum so aggressive about “proving your expertise”, especially since it’s the Internet and anyone can make up any kind of background if they wished to.
I have not enjoyed racing since Eight Belles.
Breed =/= sport
There are tb that aren’t even breed for racing, they just aren’t as frequent to see.[/QUOTE]
Your opinion is only valid if it is backed up by facts. Your enjoyment has nothing to do with it.
As an Eventer/Barbarian I’m surprised someone from the dressage forums hasn’t slithered over to bash everyone here as barbaric babykillers and that participants in any equine discipline (except dressage) should be sent to re-education camps indefinitely.
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