[QUOTE=Jim R;8673165]
My bet is she was a brood mare because she was broke down from racing and that’s what she was good for.[/QUOTE]
My mare was a racing broodmare and is now a sound, healthy 10yo show horse. She raced from 2 to 4 and had 3 foals, one of whom is a 2x winner.
[QUOTE=riderboy;8673708]
As an Eventer/Barbarian I’m surprised someone from the dressage forums hasn’t slithered over to bash everyone here as barbaric babykillers and that participants in any equine discipline (except dressage) should be sent to re-education camps indefinitely.[/QUOTE]blinks
are you drunk?
[QUOTE=Linny;8674403]
My mare was a racing broodmare and is now a sound, healthy 10yo show horse. She raced from 2 to 4 and had 3 foals, one of whom is a 2x winner.[/QUOTE]
My mare was bred by a Hall of Fame trainer; was unraced at 3, unplaced at 4 and bred 7 times with 6 live foals, by lower and lower quality breeders, until I bought her at 11 (while pregnant) so she wouldn’t be “moved down the line” again - not sure what could be lower than the “breeder” I got her from. She’s lame, has always been lame; not sure if she crashed on the track or in training, or had a pasture or breeding accident.
So…it swing both ways.
But again - I would be more open to discussing this on OT - but not here. My beef is with “bad breeders”. This forum is, from what I can tell, a group of dedicated and educated breeders.
Ho hum. Another dead horse thread where the horse racing naysayers get to rant. Like this ad infinitum issue hasn’t been discussed before. There are some really interesting other threads currently on this forum. What about grab straps? I think giving one to each of the racing naysayers might be nice. We can ask them to wear it personally and when they say something stupid about racing we can grab it to get their attention. Apparently none have heard or read this consrantly archived discussion before.
[QUOTE=Jim R;8674376]
The article was written early in the day. That is where it was at that point in time. But then again you might not have noticed the date and time. Or maybe you did not comprehend. It was written after the fourth race.
I did not write the article and did not give it it’s title.
But thank you for your input, bless your heart.[/QUOTE]
I comprehended just fine. You posted this on Off Course, with an inflammatory title, in an effort to start a $hitstorm. It got moved to where it was appropriate- you know, horse racing.
[QUOTE=RodeoFTW;8674092]
I actually like Arabian racing because horses aren’t breed purely for that sport alone and do go into other competitive careers after they are done on the track. It’s a smaller niche sport and the types of Arabians who do it are hardy and sport-horse bred (Polish/English/ Russian lines).
I also don’t know of any Arabians with psychological or physical issues like I do OTTBs.[/QUOTE]
Your responses come off as being from someone very young and impressionable and somewhat uninformed. TB’s are incredible athletes that go on to numerous careers after the track. There is not one discipline that you won’t find them (except maybe rodeo - thank God) and they excel at any job given to them. They are workaholics that have incredible intelligence, grace and stamina. Just google the Thoroughbred Racehorse Project for one of the many, many areas that they are making a comeback (thankfully).
[QUOTE=MoonWitch;8674584]
Your responses come off as being from someone very young and impressionable and somewhat uninformed. TB’s are incredible athletes that go on to numerous careers after the track. There is not one discipline that you won’t find them (except maybe rodeo - thank God) and they excel at any job given to them. They are workaholics that have incredible intelligence, grace and stamina. Just google the Thoroughbred Racehorse Project for one of the many, many areas that they are making a comeback (thankfully).[/QUOTE]
Here, some of those horses are also used for heading in team roping and some are bucking stock:
https://www.facebook.com/thoroughbredbarrel/
We really should not throw barbs at what others may do with their horses, just because we may not like it.
Great example here with racing, some like it, some don’t.
The same goes for saddlebreds or eventing or any of the many kinds of rodeo events or any other there is out there.
Where abuse is found, if abuse is our concern, fight abuse.
Lets not badmouth everyone wholesale when we don’t like their horses or what they do with them.
That should be one lesson for us to ponder this thread can be.
I found it interesting that after the latest deaths in Eventing, the same people who thoroughly bashed it on Facebook said not a peep about these two horses deaths at Pimlico. And they are in the business so they are very aware of them.
I saw everything from eventers “might as well join Isis” (due to the suicide factor) to the fact that no eventers truly care for their horses, “SOMETHING” needs to change (without knowing changes that have already been made or were being researched) etc.
But none of these vocalists said a peep about two horses dying in a business they were involved with.
Painting with the broad brush that has been done here by the OP and some who posted after is a dangerous, slippery slope. No matter how much you love, how well you care for, how “safe” your chosen discipline or hobby may seem… there are other people out there who won’t see it that way.
[QUOTE=Bluey;8674603]
Here, some of those horses are also used for heading in team roping and some are bucking stock:
https://www.facebook.com/thoroughbredbarrel/
We really should not throw barbs at what others may do with their horses, just because we may not like it.
Great example here with racing, some like it, some don’t.
The same goes for saddlebreds or eventing or any of the many kinds of rodeo events or any other there is out there.
[B]Where abuse is found, if abuse is our concern, fight abuse.
Lets not badmouth everyone wholesale when we don’t like their horses or what they do with them.
That should be one lesson for us to ponder this thread can be[/B].[/QUOTE]
Thanks Bluey, I didn’t know that they were being used for those sports as well and I agree with your bolded comments above.
[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8674566]
I comprehended just fine. You posted this on Off Course, with an inflammatory title, in an effort to start a $hitstorm. It got moved to where it was appropriate- you know, horse racing.[/QUOTE]
Like I said, reading comp 101, I did not post it in Off Course.
The title was the name off the article.
So why was a thread about a “horse” at a wedding not moved to Off Course, where a thread about horses that does not fit anywhere else.
I am trying to stay on subject but you and others do not want to debate racing, just attack those that don’t agree with you.
Seems like you must not have something positive to say about racing, but then again how could you.
[QUOTE=MoonWitch;8674619]
Thanks Bluey, I didn’t know that they were being used for those sports as well and I agree with your bolded comments above.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I always considered those gaited horses with the absurd goose-steps, big wood blocks attached with iron bands to their hooves, cut tails in harnesses, that the first time I saw them in their Nationals in Madison Square Garden was wondering if they were even horses, seemed something that was bordering on insane if not cruel.
Thought that for many years, but finally, after reading about them more on COTH, from all places, realized there is way more to that than I knew, from real abuses in Big Lick, to using rubber bands to exercise horses, for whatever purpose, who would have thought that.
I still don’t know anything about that, also not my thing, but will give them the benefit of the doubt, since I realized I come to my opinion there from a base of complete ignorance, even if I know horses, they are so foreign to what I know.
I expect many feel the same about any other, eventing, rodeo, racing, you name it, unless that is your discipline, well, you may know some about it, have heard other’s opinions, but maybe we ought to hold off a bit on being too sanguine about expressing our opinions, when we really are forming and expressing them, as someone said, “with the arrogance of ignorance”.
Others may disagree, they see or hear or imagine enough to condemn all without needing more to go by.
Still, I would consider that maybe we should also think that others also don’t like what we do, from being critical of our discipline, to outright, as animal rights extremists do, critical of us having horses to use at all.
[QUOTE=Jim R;8674628]
Like I said, reading comp 101, I did not post it in Off Course.
The title was the name off the article.
So why was a thread about a “horse” at a wedding not moved to Off Course, where a thread about horses that does not fit anywhere else.
I am trying to stay on subject but you and others do not want to debate racing, just attack those that don’t agree with you.
Seems like you must not have something positive to say about racing, but then again how could you.[/QUOTE]
Why is not enough that some like racing in itself, the breeding and raising and training and competing horses thru racing them?
I don’t know what you like to do with your horses, assuming you do something with horses, being on a horse forum and does that matter, if I like it or not?
There are all kinds of ways people enjoy horses and for now, we still may for a while longer, at least until someone just decides we should not any more, no more animals in human hands, who can defend any we do with them?
[QUOTE=Bluey;8673684]
The studies I read where of horses started as twos or threes.
The ones started as twos, their body loaded for the coming physical work, grew right into it as the athletes that were going to be later, so well fit for the task.
The ones started as threes were more mature physically, but without having been trained for the task at hand, were more apt to have more injuries, small that the numbers of those with injuries were related to the numbers trained.
Just as a gymnast that starts at 5 training will at 12 be a top gymnast, but the same kid, if started at 10, will rarely get to be as good as the one that has those years to prepare for that activity with the right training for it, the mind an body primed for that as it grows and matures brings it up to it’s inherited potential.
The studies were following with physical parameters as the horses were training, you can measure the differences, more bone density, better overall fitness, which makes for a better prepared individual.[/QUOTE]
And something I like to mention when these studies come up is that we wouldn’t have this knowledge without the racing industry - I don’t know any other equine industries supporting this kind of research. Much of what we know about equine health is known because the racing industry helps fund the research. Advances in care of ulcers, breathing issues, injury rehab, etc, largely comes out of the racing industry. I know that doesn’t placate a lot of people but I think it’s pretty important.
I’ll also say the racing industry has done more, and put their money where their mouth is more, than any other equine industry in regards to horse slaughter and changing the mindset of everyone involved about retirement and post-career options.
There’s a lot of stuff being thrown around on this thread I just can’t bring myself to address… but I will say that a lot of the commonly held ideas about breeding and substance and conformation aren’t necessarily representative of the actual facts.
Mostly I feel bad for the owners involved in what happened on Saturday. For the Jacksons to lose another, ten years after Barbaro (wearing the same # too, for heavens sake) has to be just devastating to them. And I don’t know of anyone, in ANY horse industry or sport, who have done more for horse welfare and taken better care of the animals in their charge.
[QUOTE=caffeinated;8674738]
And something I like to mention when these studies come up is that we wouldn’t have this knowledge without the racing industry - I don’t know any other equine industries supporting this kind of research. Much of what we know about equine health is known because the racing industry helps fund the research. Advances in care of ulcers, breathing issues, injury rehab, etc, largely comes out of the racing industry. I know that doesn’t placate a lot of people but I think it’s pretty important.
I’ll also say the racing industry has done more, and put their money where their mouth is more, than any other equine industry in regards to horse slaughter and changing the mindset of everyone involved about retirement and post-career options.
There’s a lot of stuff being thrown around on this thread I just can’t bring myself to address… but I will say that a lot of the commonly held ideas about breeding and substance and conformation aren’t necessarily representative of the actual facts.
Mostly I feel bad for the owners involved in what happened on Saturday. For the Jacksons to lose another, ten years after Barbaro (wearing the same # too, for heavens sake) has to be just devastating to them. And I don’t know of anyone, in ANY horse industry or sport, who have done more for horse welfare and taken better care of the animals in their charge.[/QUOTE]
Well said on all levels.
[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8673830]
Good topic, but link the studies you are referring to. Has there been a conclusion that using Lasix places horses at a greater risk if they run within 30 days of having been administered Lasix? How much of a “disruption” is significant? What is a “disruption” anyway?[/QUOTE]
I read a story or two on The Bloodhorse website. You could try googling there.
I just went back and read the 2013 story. It wasn’t a formal peer-reviewed study at an academic institution. It was a study by a racing insider who wants to formulate either a supplement or a feed, and it only applied to 7 horses. The fellow doing the ''study" has a Ph.D. in something, but I don’t think the story said.
I remembered the finding wrong. Guy told Bloodhorse that both blood sodium and calcium were lost in excess of normal for 24 hours after a Lasix shot followed by exercise. At the end of 24 hours, sodium was back at normal normal levels but calcium took three days to come back to normal. So I apparently misremembered the time involved; I remembered the 3 and stuck a O on it.
[QUOTE=Jim R;8674072]
Ok, go ahead and attack me. I said there was maybe 10% that do care about the horses. If you think that a majority of the people in the business care about horse then we can disagree on that. But I guess you just want to attack me for my opinion than prove me wrong. Horse racing is in big trouble and part of the reason is how horses are being run. Just the way they are drugged, and no significant penalty at all. If a trainer does loose their license then just have another just be their beard.
Every year it goes down the tubes a little more. Once the casinos pay off the right people and don’t have to subsidize it the party will be over.
I have a friend that breeds, is a trainer and I get along with her just fine. Other trainers I deal with are the lowest of the low. I did not paint you with a broad brush, you just took it that way. Tell me how you start your horses and how you don’t just patch them up to get in a race, but are looking at the long term health.
Tell me how you care more about the horse than trying to keep the owner happy with their horse running when it should have a little more time off.
Or just keep going with the personal attacks. I am a big boy and can take it.[/QUOTE]
Where did you get the 10% that you quote? Knowing, as I do hundreds of owners/breeders/trainers/grooms/riders etc, I would venture that about 5% really DON’T care. Being as horses are tested for drugs after every race, it appears that wholesale “drugging” is not taking place.
Is it true that sometimes horses race when another week off might be better, yes. But in most cases, the horse is fine. What area of the horse world do you inhabit? Harness racing? Is that much different? (To say nothing of the horror of Amish rehoming…) The QH world, don’t throw stones, please. Show hunters? Please. Gaited horses? I’d rather be a TB racehorse than a gaited horse!
There are bad horsemen in every endeavor. Otherwise healthy horses get hurt or die in all fields.
Because of the speed involved in racing (and eventing) injuries there are typically more catastrophic. A running horse who suffers a mild fracture at 38mph, can’t just STOP. At very best he can pull up quickly before much further damage is done. The faster they pull up the better chance of being OK.
Having spent decades in and around racing, I have NEVER met a person who was not devastated by any horse breaking down, NEVER.
Effects of furosemide on renal calcium handling.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17652376
https://ker.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/KER_RaceRecovery-report.pdf
[QUOTE=MoonWitch;8674584]
Your responses come off as being from someone very young and impressionable and somewhat uninformed. TB’s are incredible athletes that go on to numerous careers after the track. There is not one discipline that you won’t find them (except maybe rodeo - thank God) and they excel at any job given to them. They are workaholics that have incredible intelligence, grace and stamina. Just google the Thoroughbred Racehorse Project for one of the many, many areas that they are making a comeback (thankfully).[/QUOTE]
This is nothing I didn’t know already. I’ve been to New Vocations and CANTER. I’ve ridden OTTBS and worked around them in many stables. My own BO/trainer used to work at a TB farm and was an exercise riser.
However, I still don’t like TB racing. I don’t like the track injuries I’ve seen on horses or the psychological effects.
Many horses do get second chance careers, but a lot don’t and it is still a major concern to me.
[QUOTE=RodeoFTW;8674957]
However, I still don’t like TB racing. I don’t like the track injuries I’ve seen on horses or the psychological effects.
Many horses do get second chance careers, but a lot don’t and it is still a major concern to me.[/QUOTE]
I’m still not sure about this whole “psychological effects of racing” thing. I’m not saying they don’t exist, or that horses can’t be super-badly affected by a traumatic experience, but to assume that every OTTB is a nutcase because of on-the-track handling seems a bit much. I really suspect there’s a lot more owners who don’t understand the thoroughbred mind than there are crazy, race-traumatized TBs.
I heard about the tragedies at Pimlico from a friend of mine that evening - we were discussing how we hadn’t seen the race, but I told her I read Exaggerator won. And then she informed me of the fatalities, and said she heard on NPR that “The first horse (presumably Homeboykris) died of exhaustion”. And I was all :eek:, and very politely said that that was extremely unlikely as racehorses are pretty well-conditioned and I thought it was more likely to be cardiovascular. She clearly thought I was lying to her. :mad:
How bad is it when a somewhat well-informed member of the public (the woman had been to a polo match with me the previous weekend - AFAIK those horses run way farther in a chukker than a mile on a flat track) accepts that “death from exhaustion” is a likely outcome???
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