Two horses dead in four races at Preakness

[caffeinated]

[QUOTE=Sunsets;8675186]
I’m still not sure about this whole “psychological effects of racing” thing. I’m not saying they don’t exist, or that horses can’t be super-badly affected by a traumatic experience, but to assume that every OTTB is a nutcase because of on-the-track handling seems a bit much. I really suspect there’s a lot more owners who don’t understand the thoroughbred mind than there are crazy, race-traumatized TBs. [/QUOTE]

I tend to think that any horse of any type can be traumatized by handling or ill treatment - and I’ve seen just as many pleasure horses (of all breeds) that have “issues” as I have TBs. And in my experience the vast majority of TBs do not have bad psychological effects, though I have seen plenty of people ASSUME that their horse was “abused” because they have unwittingly trained bad behavior into them or they don’t understand how the horse was trained in the first place. When I’ve seen OTTBs with issues that probably do step from bad handling/trauma, most of those aren’t really related to racing specifically and could have happened in any discipline.

[RodeoFTW]

@Sunsets;8675186

I’m still not sure about this whole “psychological effects of racing” thing. I’m not saying they don’t exist, or that horses can’t be super-badly affected by a traumatic experience, but to assume that every OTTB is a nutcase because of on-the-track handling seems a bit much. I really suspect there’s a lot more owners who don’t understand the thoroughbred mind than there are crazy, race-traumatized TBs.

I’m not insinuating all thoroughbreds come out whacked, but I’ve seen a few who did.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=caffeinated;8675198]
I tend to think that any horse of any type can be traumatized by handling or ill treatment - and I’ve seen just as many pleasure horses (of all breeds) that have “issues” as I have TBs. And in my experience the vast majority of TBs do not have bad psychological effects, though I have seen plenty of people ASSUME that their horse was “abused” because they have unwittingly trained bad behavior into them or they don’t understand how the horse was trained in the first place. When I’ve seen OTTBs with issues that probably do step from bad handling/trauma, most of those aren’t really related to racing specifically and could have happened in any discipline.[/QUOTE]

TBs have not been bred for their sweet disposition.
They are handled by professionals most of their lives, that understand them and can train them to run, no matter how nice or rank they may be.

There is more variables in their temperament than in breeds that are supposed to be handled by the general public and need to be more beginner friendly.

[LaurieB]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8675215]
TBs have not been bred for their sweet disposition.
They are handled by professionals most of their lives, that understand them and can train them to run, no matter how nice or rank they may be.

There is more variables in their temperament than in breeds that are supposed to be handled by the general public and need to be more beginner friendly.[/QUOTE]

While it is true that TBs are not purposely bred for a sweet disposition, breeders do shy away from bad temperament for practical reasons. A rank, uncooperative horse is that much harder to train and manage–and the backside of a racetrack is a place where horse care is accomplished as quickly and efficiently as possible. Not only that but when it comes to racing itself, the horse needs to be a willing partner and participant. It is perhaps possible to force a horse to compete in a race. It is most certainly impossible to force a horse to win a race.

That said, the TB temperament isn’t one for beginners. They are a brave, intelligent, sensitive, thinking breed. And they like to do things fast. Owners who don’t understand that–or who can’t keep up–call them crazy. Those who want a horse that comes with its own engine, that will try anything, and that can think on its feet, love them.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=LaurieB;8675260]
While it is true that TBs are not purposely bred for a sweet disposition, breeders do shy away from bad temperament for practical reasons. A rank, uncooperative horse is that much harder to train and manage–and the backside of a racetrack is a place where horse care is accomplished as quickly and efficiently as possible. Not only that but when it comes to racing itself, the horse needs to be a willing partner and participant. It is perhaps possible to force a horse to compete in a race. It is most certainly impossible to force a horse to win a race.

That said, the TB temperament isn’t one for beginners. They are a brave, intelligent, sensitive, thinking breed. And they like to do things fast. Owners who don’t understand that–or who can’t keep up–call them crazy. Those who want a horse that comes with its own engine, that will try anything, and that can think on its feet, love them.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that too.

We retrained those we quit running as ranch horses, some made good general horses, some were for the more experienced cowboys.

At the track, we knew some lines that generally may result in harder to handle horses and, as you say, it was hard to be as consistent with them because of that.

We always looked for disposition first in our broodmares, because in our rough country, the flightier ones tended to be self destructing.

[CVPeg]

[QUOTE=RodeoFTW;8675210]
I’m not insinuating all thoroughbreds come out whacked, but I’ve seen a few who did.[/QUOTE]

Well, and of the 100’s of TBs I’ve known over the years, my default opinion isn’t that they come out whacked - but I sure think that of some Appys and Arabs I’ve known in my life! No - (ducking) - I don’t judge all that way - but for me - TBs are not at the top of the “whacked” list - and this is based on the experience I had riding dozens of them when they were “accepted”.

What has added to this negative connotation are the changes over the years - the stupid negative systemic dismissal once they fell out of favor being replaced by WBs and weekend warriors when Susie or Johnny or Mommy only want to ride once a week. Like all else, everyone wants easy right away.

True, as stated above - they are often not for beginners - and everyone wants to be seen immediately with the best - or doing the best with no training whatsoever or just the basics. I’m sorry - but that’s pretty evidenced by some of the classes held these days. So if you have been showing, and want to naysay TBs, because now we’re all rescuing them and giving them their own classes - I’m not surprised you think that way.

If I wanted a horse that will give 1000% every day - that is perhaps impatient if they don’t have a job to do - because they want to work every day - I’ll grab a TB. And once you can communicate with them, when you really understand them, instead of judging them, you may find you’ll change your mind, too. I have had my share of incidents, but also my greatest degree of trust in a horse has been in TBS. You just need someone who knows what they’re doing - who knows how to move them from the track to under saddle correctly and with time well spent - if that’s your purpose in riding. And someone who sees that you are also willing.

But if they’re not your cup-of-tea, then choose something else.

[RodeoFTW]

Wow, where did you see me diss tbs or say I didn’t like them? Assuming much? Calm down, sweetheart.

[RhythmNCruise]

[QUOTE=tuppysmom;8673239]
Last figures that I saw had AQHA horses as the highest numbers in kill pens. They breed, and register, many more AQHA every year than they do TBs.[/QUOTE]

Yep. And they start the pleasure and hunter futurity babies at 18 months old. They have western saddles slapped on their backs, their heads tied down/around, and then a grown man climbs aboard with legs he can wrap around the horse and “rock grinder” spurs on, and he forces the horse to “crip” around the arena at an unnatural gait.

Because AQHA can do AI and TBs can only do live cover, there are definitely WAY more AQHAs born every year. They crank out tons of babies. Which is why most of the big time AQHA breeders I know of are also very pro-slaughter. They see it as a “necessary evil” because they need a place to send their excess product.

It’s a world I’ve been too close to for many, many years. Racing really isn’t any worse.

[Moderator_1]

This thread was actually originally posted in Off Topic, not Off Course. It’s a thread about a racing issue, so we moved it to the Racing forum.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[beaujolais]

“It’s a world I’ve been too close to for many, many years. Racing really isn’t any worse.”

Agreed. What it is, is that because people don’t “SEE” the casualties/deaths in some of the other disciplines on television, it’s harder to start threads about.

What about all those used up school horses that get shipped off to a horrible death? You don’t SEE that on television. You SEE a kid feeding the cute schoolies carrots, when you SEE it in the media. So, therefore all is good, right? :no:

[MoonWitch]

[QUOTE=beaujolais;8675986]
“It’s a world I’ve been too close to for many, many years. Racing really isn’t any worse.”

Agreed. What it is, is that because people don’t “SEE” the casualties/deaths in some of the other disciplines on television, it’s harder to start threads about.

What about all those used up school horses that get shipped off to a horrible death? You don’t SEE that on television. You SEE a kid feeding the cute schoolies carrots, when you SEE it in the media. So, therefore all is good, right? :no:[/QUOTE]

^^NAILED IT

[MoonWitch]

[QUOTE=Sunsets;8675186]
How bad is it when a somewhat well-informed member of the public (the woman had been to a polo match with me the previous weekend - AFAIK those horses run way farther in a chukker than a mile on a flat track) accepts that “death from exhaustion” is a likely outcome???[/QUOTE]

I have a first time horse owner/boarder with an old track pony (22yo TB saint of a horse). She went on FB with the race fatalities exclaiming that pony had “taught horses to race” and she couldn’t imagine how there must have desensitized in order to be able to race… :uhoh:

[Where_sMyWhite]

IMO, it does not help that the media grabs on to something like this and blows it out of proportion and the public doesn’t know any better.

CNN has this (2 horses dead in 4 races) as a headline right under Exaggerator upsetting Nyquist in the Preakness. Same as the title here… yeah, the “truth” but not the whole, big picture truth.

Today they’re leading with the fact (which is true) that people weren’t meant to survive Mt Everest’s altitude (really? no kidding? its summit is much higher than when you would be required to use supplemental oxygen in a plane).

And another story from yesterday, I think it was. 4 people dead in 4 days. One has to read the story to discover how they died and how freakin’ dangerous it is to climb that mountain. But for mainstream general public, who knows what they are thinking…

I used to work with someone who made an Everest summit attempt. Listening to him talking about how destructive that altitude is on a body was downright scary… He ended up having to abandon his attempt because he was having some type of tooth problem (don’t remember what it was now) and couldn’t get it to heal or feel better. Meds don’t even work well or properly at that altitude.

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=LaurieB;8675260]
While it is true that TBs are not purposely bred for a sweet disposition, breeders do shy away from bad temperament for practical reasons. A rank, uncooperative horse is that much harder to train and manage–and the backside of a racetrack is a place where horse care is accomplished as quickly and efficiently as possible. Not only that but when it comes to racing itself, the horse needs to be a willing partner and participant. It is perhaps possible to force a horse to compete in a race. It is most certainly impossible to force a horse to win a race.

That said, the TB temperament isn’t one for beginners. They are a brave, intelligent, sensitive, thinking breed. And they like to do things fast. Owners who don’t understand that–or who can’t keep up–call them crazy. Those who want a horse that comes with its own engine, that will try anything, and that can think on its feet, love them.[/QUOTE]

Well, Tapits are known to be tempermental. So were Northern Dancers.

[LaurieB]

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8676604]
Well, Tapits are known to be tempermental. So were Northern Dancers.[/QUOTE]

Temperamental is one thing. It can be dealt with and worked around.

Previous posters were talking about crazy and “whacked out” which is something else entirely.

[Linny]

[QUOTE=RodeoFTW;8675210]
I’m not insinuating all thoroughbreds come out whacked, but I’ve seen a few who did.[/QUOTE]

I’ve ridden plenty of brain fried horses out of “jumper” barns and dressage barns. Racing is no more likely to fry a horse’s mind than any other high level activity.

[Sparrowette]

[QUOTE=Mardi;8674353]
Why would you want to hunt dogs ?

(sorry, couldn’t resist) :)[/QUOTE]

Chinese food? (sorry, couldn’t resist)

[RodeoFTW]

[QUOTE=Linny;8676753]
I’ve ridden plenty of brain fried horses out of “jumper” barns and dressage barns. Racing is no more likely to fry a horse’s mind than any other high level activity.[/QUOTE]

That was your experience. I was stating mine.

[Denali6298]

What’s temperamental for people used to working with these horses might be “whacked out” for someone who doesn’t have much experience with that sort of horse The woman I bought my mare from said she was hot, spooky, and I should put her on regumate. She is anything but those things. My old guy is hotter than hades even at 28 and quirky as they come too. Lani reminds me of him. I still wouldn’t call him wacked out. Just particular.

[wireweiners]

For those of you who don’t venture on to the other topics very often, RodeoFTW is, by her own admission, a college student. But by her own admission, she knows everything from proper care of cattle to horse racing. Frankly I think the closest she has come to a horse or any livestock, is the pony ride or petting zoo. She should go back under her bridge and stick to harassing billy goats.

JimR, usually hangs out in Off Topic where he originally posted this thread. His normal topics are bashing Pres. Obama or Hillary Clinton. I’m surprised he posted on a horse related topic.