What is competitive trail? what does it entail and how did it originate?
The point…
The point, to me…is dressage was a means not an end… a means to make a horse more useful…now, after seeing that many train the horse in dressage, and dressage is the end…well…I understand that riding outside of an arena is scary…honestly, I do. I am not being sarcastic…please don’t take it wrong. It should be acknowledged by any dressage rider, even if dressage is your end…that dressage was NEVER ment to be the end…it was intended to be a means…a training for other uses…like battle, or in Goldsterns case, like being a cop. I am sorry that such a good thread turned into such a muck pile…
Competitive trail =
PI I’m absolutely flabberghasted at your attitude.
Disagreeing on a particular subject is ok.
Having some sort of words with one another while arguing the subject in question goes with the territory. Usually after the argument is over we all either go our separate ways or agree to disagree, no harm done.
BUT, personally attacking one particular poster with vicious insults, calling her psychotic, calling her a killer…THAT is unacceptable in my book.
Aside from the fact that you obviously do not know Sabine (see the comment about finding a man LOL), it appears to me by the obvious anger you display that is you who are the one in need of some serious psychological help. Please do get some as soon as possible.
Well the calvary showed up as expected…
Funny no one say anything about Sabine insulting me or anyone else for that matter.
My diagnosis was probably dead on. Follow her posts she flip flops constantly. I killed my horses no I didnt, I dont tie my horses, yes I do…
KKJ-Please enlighten us. What level do you compete at?
My guess is never past 2nd or 3rd and if so certainly not on a horse you trained. I could be wrong but I doubt it. You follow competitive dressage and watching the Olympics doesnt make you a high level competitor. You tell T2000 that she is probably not good at any one thing…
Exactly what one thing are you good at?
CTR- DRESSGE-LIFE
Better yet, kkj, come ride a CTR or LD with me~;) You might like it!!!
NOT ALL CTR (competitive trail ride) is like NATRC… I, personally have never done a NATRC CTR. The rides I have done are not run/judged that way.
[B]CTR that I have ridden have been 25 miles. Your horse is vetted out and scored before the ride, and must past vet exam for you to be entered in the ride. They check, among other things, pulse, respiration, back soreness, lameness, swelling in joints and for dehydration. You are scored on these things, they also make note of any scraps/scars so that they are noted, and you are not marked down for them later. CTR is not a race, and you are given an ‘ideal’ time, for example, 4 hours 10 minutes…(varies depending on terrain, hard terrain=more time) You must complete within the time window given or be deducted a point for each minute you are in faster or slower from this time. The horse that finishes with the best overall score, for physical condition wins.
Limitied distance is similar, though it is an actual, who finishes first with a healthy horse wins…
I got into distance riding because a woman I sold my gelding to sent a cute little update card, telling me what she and he were up to…I was like, what is Competitive Trail??? A trail class in the woods??? I had odd images of how that was run… She emailed me back and forth and I attended some clinics…volunteered at a ride and entered a 5 mile “TASTE” ride…which is a clinic with a 5 mile ride and a potluck…friendship making time at the end…Well, my horse LOVED IT…absolutely loved it…and green though we were…he won it…and brought home some lovely prizes…
the next ride was a 25 miler…he placed eighth, against some experienced horses…and next time he won sixth… I could see that not only did he love it, so did we…so why not do it???[/B]
Why would you think that a horse & horse person cannot be good at more than one thing??? Does being a good business woman make you a bad mom??? Or does being a great mom make you a bad wife??? NO, it comliments each other…what you are saying, that my horse/ nor I could be good at more than one thing is rediculous…Not only are we good at many things, we are good at other things in life, like loving God, being a good wife, helping others and being acclaimed for being a great Treatment foster mom…some things I have done in Treatment foster care have been made into training resources…
HOW can you say that if you are good at many things you are great at nothing??? THAT is mean, shallow, and taking a pot shot at everyone here,
to me, because I believe we can all be great at many things… in horses and in life…:yes:
Done right, the things in your life, and your horse life compliment each other, and come together like a beautiful tapestry…
Jim & I have a great marriage, beautiful home and are blessed with horses and child rearing knowledge…and have chosen to share those gifts with teen boys that are struggling in life. All these things compliment each other, and all the good things in our life come down from God, We are all created by God, and He excels at much… do you not think He wants His children to, also?
Our CTR- & Endurance riding have brought us some of the best memories and joy in our life, camping with your loved ones and your horses is a great joy, great family time and the memories that make life great. Just like our filly being born into my husbands arms…or watching my foster son ride with me yesterday, him on our paint mare, with her filly by our stallion galloping at her side, and me riding the first horse we had ever foaled…on our property…that is fullfillment…that is a picture of things coming together and the picture of being great at many things in life… then I went to the boarding stable and worked my endurance/dressage stallion in flying changes, piaffe, half pass etc… I do everything I do because it brings me joy, because I want to do it, because God gifted me to do it…because I love it- and if Shadrach makes it to the highest level in dressage, and/or Endurance, it will be because we enjoyed it, were gifted by God to do it and because…we found joy in it… besides everything else I do photography too, I don’t want it to be my profession, I want it to be a gift, that I use to bless others, and have in countless ways…COTH’ers…Look out side your own four walls, be a blessing to someone else today, you can only be truly happy when you take your eyes off yourself and be kind to others…so enough bashing please… could we bring a little blessing and kindness to the forumn?? Please…
T2000 I understand what you are saying and I don’t totally disagree with it. I do think it is OK to have your end goal be a competitive dressage horse just as it is OK to have your end goal be a safe trail horse or a winning show jumper or whatever. I don’t like it when some people never get their show horses out of the arena or keep them in a cage with no turnout. I did not say contrary to PI assertion that you are not good at anything just that I doubt if your horse is good at a lot of things that it is exceptional at one. If your stallion is a versatile good all rounder that is awesome. Those are some of the best horses you can find.
PI Oh boy. Well, no I have not competed in FEI yet. I have never until my 4 year old owned a horse with FEI potential. I have started over 30 horses myself and trained them myself to 3rd level. I came from the hunter world. I have trained a horse from weanling to winner at A shows hunters. I have done training level eventing on a horse I trained. I have trained many horses over fences and have jumped 4’9" courses. I can ride. Since switching to strict dressage I now have a horse I can go somewhere with. I have had plenty of nice jumping, good on the trails, good to 3rd level type horses in the past. My end goal is to win at competitive dressage, so fire away if that bothers you. I have had several big trainers and clinicians say that my current horse has grand prix potential and barring injury or something I plan with the help of my FEI winning trainer to get her to FEI.
Yes, Goldstern was a great horse, but I have a sneaking suspicion that Klaus is not tying Kingston, Brentina, Floriano, etc. to the patience pole at their training sessions. lol
ETK
ETK, I am sure that tying is part of any upper level horse’s training, after all, they have to stand tied and quiet for the plane ride, right?
:yes:
I’m sorry…after nearly ten pages…eigther you are going to agree to disagree, or you are going to be rude…how about agree to disagree…
T2000, I was typing my last post and did not see your last one until now. So to respond- Cool I have no problem with you. PI is another matter but you and your horses and all are cool. You may very well be good at a lot of things. The point I keep failing in making is that horses are specialized. The best eventers in the world are not going to win at Grand Prix dressage against the best dressage horses. The best jumpers are not going to win 100 mile endurance races against the arabs etc etc. Horse breeding is becoming more specialized not less. A lot of Grand Prix dressage horses can’t jump well at all, but they are great at what they do. The long distance endurance horses I have seen (and I admit I don’t know much about the sport) have conditioning and muscle development that is nothing like a dressage horse. They often trot around totally hollow and inverted.
There are some stallions out there that do well at both FEI dressage and Jumping -Ferro was one or Argus (both deceased I am sure there are lots of others I don’t know) A lot of times a jumper bred horse will make a fabulous dressage horse ie) Salinero. However, I don’t know of any horses that could win at Grad Prix today in both jumping at dressage or dressage and 100 mile endurance races or Advanced eventing and Grand Prix dressage or whatever. The bar has been raised in all the individual disciplines. If a horse is truly multitalented to the degree that it could excel in more than one discipline at the highest level, the lucky owner will have to choose which one if the horse is truly to excel. Maybe some very rare horses can go to Grand Prix in Jumping and then switch over to dressage, but this would be very rare indeed.
To the person who asked about how to ground tie
The method that was used with my mare and I witnessed being used with yearlings and up at the farm she came from was fairly simple.
When the horses are very small. They are groomed with a halter and long lead rope. The groomer who spends lots of time whith them, keeps his foot on the lead rope so that the baby realizes that he is “confined” to a small area and cant move around - but he is getting lots of grooming/reinforcement for standing still.
When they get older they use what someone here called the patience pole. Basically, while being groomed, they are attached to a pole, or even a lign that runs above their heads so that they have nothing to pull agaisnt and get injured and have some movement availability. In the meantime, they are groomed, pampered and reinforced for being still.
Third phase I have seen is a lot of round pen/ arena work teaching the horse to stay still with a hand command. Putting the lead rope down, giving a stay command and walking from the horse, turning and using a hand command to remind the horse to stay…after a while the horse begins to understand its job.
I will say that my mare who ground ties perfectly cannot be tied to a fixed object as she panicks violently. The solution is to loop the rope over the bar once or twice so she the rope gives when she pulls. Once she feels the give she stops pulling and steps forward. She is safer ground tying.
I am sure there are other methods, but these are the ones I have seen personally.
Also seen a friend letting her two mustangs go in a small field with tall grass and branches down with a halter and long rope so they learn to stays still when they get entangled. With her overseeing.
Ground tying
Thanks, Karoline, I have never taught a horse to ground tie, so I wondered how it was done
You brought up a good point about the turning loose with a halter/lead rope. At some point in their life, we do this with all of our horses,
they learn to not panic when they are stepping on the rope…a little controlled training can go a long way…
I still don’t understand what everyone is fighting over and being so darned unpleasant for!
We have similar to your CTR’s here, there are professional categories, more time/speed orientated categories and endurance all with their own rules. It is not my interest but i appreciate the riding skill and horse management that goes into it. I would imagine that Arab/ arab crosses would be particularly well suited to this sport, i can also see that dressage training would be beneficial.
Personally i think FEI especially GP is a big ask i don’t expect the horses to have 2nd and 3rd careers - to me it would be greedy and entail unnecessary risk and mileage on their joints but that is just my personal opinion. Other people may have a different rationale and different interests which i can respect.
PI Well the cavalry showed up as expected …
My diagnosis was probably dead on. Follow her posts she flip flops constantly…KKJ-Please enlighten us. What level do you compete at?..My guess is never past 2nd or 3rd and if so certainly not on a horse you trained. I could be wrong but I doubt it…Exactly what one thing are you good at?
PI are you qualified to make a diagnosis in regard of an individuals mental health status? It is incredibly unkind to diminish and demean as traumatic condition as Bi Polar disorder, i’m not sure the term Schizophrenia is in use any more, it’s not used in the UK but it’s a serious condition.
I would defend anyone that i noticed being insulted unreasonably so don’t take it out of context when you are criticised but you are bang out of order! I tend to skip your posts as i find them difficult to comprehend but a mean streak sure stands out.
clarifications…
first I said…“I lost 2 horses to tying accidents” - I did not kill them- they were for a period of 18 months not usable for the purpose intended- because they were injured.
second- I don’t appreciate personal attacks- I don’t need a man- I am very blessed in that department- actually with someone who professionally trains all the historical dressage movements on Andalusians that are presented in a large establishment…
finally- all those that find PI in need of medical care, I agree and suggest Prozac to start…
MSpeeps- Fiona and all the others- thank you for your support…
You’re welcome.
KKJ
Oh I got your point about specialized horses…My point was and is you are not competing at any levels that specialized training would hold any merit.
Your riding training level and worried about specialized training???
I started 30 horses in the last three years. Was called in to help school Piaffe and passage for a trainer that competes (all be it at the lower levels until now) and I get the calls from trainers to help with their problem horses. I will still be the first person to tell you I am not a trainer nor do I have any real knowledge about training a horse. I just like to play with them.
Third Level? What is that? IF you mean basic training, lateral movements, canter departs and lead changes well thats the basic requirement of any good trail horse.
I think its great you jumped 4’9 on a course. Two weeks ago when returning from our “trail ride”, I cleared a four fence on my non competitive (as you put it) Arab because I didnt feel like opening the gate. Didnt think of it as an accomplishment of any kind. Just being lazy…
I want to tell you a story. Try to keep an open mind here, and maybe you will see where I am coming from…
I played soccer for years. All the way to Semi-Pro division (which is about like lower level dressage, nice sounding term meaning I wasnt good enough to play pro).
When I was a kid we had a coach for a few years who was great. We loved practice. It was so much fun becuase we never really “practiced” like the other teams did…but we were undefeated in our league for the entire time he coached us.
While everyone else was running laps and doing cario.
Our coach would throw the soccer ball up and say Rugby!. We would go to bed at night exhausted from running so much but it never seemed like work.
While everyone else was practicing ball handling and moving it down the field.
He would have us play 3 on 2 keep away. If you got your ball taken you had to be the person we kept it away from till you got it back and so on…trying to score a goal as we kept it away.
While the other teams were doing accuracy/shooting drills our coach would put up a target or better yet make us try to hit the goalie with the ball.
We loved practice. It was always fun.
I was older and talking to an old timer cowboy who said sneak the work in on your horse. Dont bore him to death. Immediately I thought about my old soccer coach.
That sneaky coach had us working harder in practice than any other team worked… We spent more time on ball handling skills than any other team, and we spent more time on accuracy than any other team and because it was fun we were enthusiastic about doing it…
Some fools will have you believe you can not ride accurately on the trail. Fillis himself did almost all of his training out on hacks. You dont have to be in an arena to be mindful of your posture and aids…
When you show up at the barn your horse knows the drill, you could probably cut him loose and he will do it on his own. Some circles in the sand, then some of this then some of that and then a bath then back to the stall.
The next time you see a “trail rider” dont assume they are just yahooing around. Why do our horses learn so much faster than those in an arena?
Becuase they dont know they are being trained. Its a fun outing for them.
Keep your horses interested, sneak the training in on them and they will move along much faster in their training…
Sabine
someone who professionally trains all the historical dressage movements on Andalusians that are presented in a large establishment…
And what establishment would that be??
Funny no one say anything about Sabine insulting me or anyone else for that matter.
LOL we’re used to a somewhat snotty attitude from some posters:D Besides, you seem perfectly capable to take care of yourself.
My diagnosis was probably dead on. Follow her posts she flip flops constantly. I killed my horses no I didnt, I dont tie my horses, yes I do…
That doesn’t mean the woman is psychotic. Confused perhaps. Trying to appease the lynch mob perhaps. Don’t know, don’t care. Whatever her motives or lack thereof it is pretty ridiculous to say the least to give an instant cyber-diagnosis.
CTR that I have ridden have been 25 miles. Your horse is vetted out and scored before the ride, and must past vet exam for you to be entered in the ride. They check, among other things, pulse, respiration, back soreness, lameness, swelling in joints and for dehydration. You are scored on these things, they also make note of any scraps/scars so that they are noted, and you are not marked down for them later. CTR is not a race, and you are given an ‘ideal’ time, for example, 4 hours 10 minutes…(varies depending on terrain, hard terrain=more time) You must complete within the time window given or be deducted a point for each minute you are in faster or slower from this time. The horse that finishes with the best overall score, for physical condition wins
that sounds like a blast. Like an endurance ride without the racing. I must look into that.
Isn’t that what sedatives are for? lol
KKJ, my stallion just turned six a month ago…we too, are at the beginning of the journey…
KKJ I see your point about many top endurance horses, and many, if not all of the top endurance riders are cross training in dressage to battle the effects that you mentioned. Arabian Horse magazine carried an article in 2003 or 2004 about the similar quailities in dressage and endurance…many people are catching onto it…it is VERY common for endurance riders to be in dressage lessons…because they do compliment one another.
Distance riding builds confidence, endurance, strength (especially in joints/ligaments) and creates the opportunity for the development of an indescribable bond between horse and rider. Those are all quailities that any dressage horse can benefit from.
Is all this friction because a few people are living outside of the ‘norm’ of the dressage world?
If I died today, I would not ever regret swimming with my horses, distance riding with my horses, feeling that joy of seeing our horses foaled, being able to ask my horse to lay down, to sit, to bow, to piaffe, to passage…I will most likely smile to myself as I feel the joy of living in the moment, and doing what brought me joy…the minutes you spend in the show ring are momentary compared to the moments you spend in life…and I would never regret leaving my horse have his long flowing mane when the ‘norm’ is to pull it out…the same way, I do not regret living a free and happy life…that lasts longer than any time in a show arena…though that is just me, I’m about the journey, the ride…realization of the destination is fleeting…the journey is your life. I am sure you are living out your journey with joy too, it just doesn’t mean that mine has to be the same as yours…I for one will not rip my horse’s mane out, just because it is the norm…It is useful as it is beautiful…just one other way, I might be a little out side of the norm…
http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/6102621/166354750.jpg
It looks good up, so why rip it out???
http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/6102621/166354742.jpg
If he excels and masters one or more disciplines…great…if not, I have still lived the life I’ve longed to live…I would not trade this horse for any other…
BTW-
Some of the most amazing athletes in the world cross train. I am sure that Lance Armstrong cross trains…and Michael Jordan did…being excellent often creates a desire to do more than others might do.
I’m glad there is much we can agree on…I learned so much by getting into distance riding…your pre concieved ideas about it maybe wrong…as mine were…I found out horses love it…that endurance horses have very long careers, healthy ones, on my first distance ride, I found that towards the end, one horse was doing particularly well, and commented, because I was surprised, as she was what looked to me to be a very overweight, little (pony sized) Arab…she was a little tank…and we were nearly back, and she barely looked like this was any effort for her…when I asked about the little mare…everyone laughed and said that mare probably had more miles on her than the collective group of six that we were, and in that group were lifelong distance riders…by the way, that fat, healthy little mare was 20 years old…and looked like she was 10 or 12…wow…:eek: :yes: This theme has been repeated as I meet new horses and riders from this ‘arena’ of distance riders…maybe some of you would be interested in that many if not most or all of the OLDEST riders in the world compete in endurance!!! Check out Julie Suhr, her book, Ten Feet Tall, still, and you will be inspired to be riding into your eighties like Julie, she didn’t even start really riding until she was 41 and has become a legend… When I grow old, God Bless me like Julie Suhr and let me ride forever!!!:yes:
Julie has been competitive & a legend in Distance riding well into her eighties…GOD BLESS YA JULIE!!! Your are an inspiration!!!
