For those of you who use or are familiar with ultrasound machines, which brand or type do you recommend? I am going to learn how to do my own ultra sounding and breeding this year and want to buy a machine but have no idea where to start? I want the best bang for my buck but definitely don’t want to spend a fortune as I only breed 1-3 mare per year as it is.
Thanks!
[QUOTE=Donella;6162591]
For those of you who use or are familiar with ultrasound machines, which brand or type do you recommend? I am going to learn how to do my own ultra sounding and breeding this year and want to buy a machine but have no idea where to start? I want the best bang for my buck but definitely don’t want to spend a fortune as I only breed 1-3 mare per year as it is.
Thanks![/QUOTE]
I think the best thing to do is find some people local to you (if possible) who are using ultrasound and ask if you can take a look at their machines. Everyone likes something a little different. Or if you are taking a course (I’m assuming you are) you can see what they are using or what they recomend. We have always used Aloka brand ultrasounds and love them (currently an Aloka 500 we’ve had forever-it is a human ultrasound modified for equine work), but to each their own.
Another important thing to consider is that with only a few mares to breed each year there will be quite a learning curve. Reading the ultrasound images is the easy part; being proficient at palpating and getting the technique down is the tougher part. It is generally acknowledged that it takes about 100 guided palpations to become proficient. Hopefully you have a way to get lots of practice on very patient mares 
!!
Edited to add that you can find a used Aloka for about $500. The used trans-rectal probes (last time I checked; it has been quite some time) were running about $3000.
Thanks for the info Hillside.
I am a bit worried about not having enough mares to breed to justify the machine, taking the course ect, but I do have quite a few mares here that are performance mares as well and I bought a set of stocks so I am thinking I will be able to practice a bit on those mares as well (even though I am not breeding them)? I know it is not ideal but I REALLY want to learn and am really tired of the whole vet thing.
I am taking Jim Kubiak’s course, a five day ultrasound course that also covers insemination. I also have a friend with lots of mares that does his own frozen and he is going to let me hang out with him this season. Do you find you get “rusty” with time off ie in the spring the following year??
Donella, where are you taking the course? I’d be interested in taking it too!
Sent you a pm Leah
I’m right there with you, Donnella - have wanted to do this for a LONG time. Are you flying down to CA to get his course or is he coming up here?
The biggest risk to us home do-it-yourselfers is the risk of rectal perforation, so you always need to remember to take your time and don’t push it. That’s something that has always made me pause…
[QUOTE=Donella;6162956]
Thanks for the info Hillside.
I am a bit worried about not having enough mares to breed to justify the machine, taking the course ect, but I do have quite a few mares here that are performance mares as well and I bought a set of stocks so I am thinking I will be able to practice a bit on those mares as well (even though I am not breeding them)? I know it is not ideal but I REALLY want to learn and am really tired of the whole vet thing.
I am taking Jim Kubiak’s course, a five day ultrasound course that also covers insemination. I also have a friend with lots of mares that does his own frozen and he is going to let me hang out with him this season. Do you find you get “rusty” with time off ie in the spring the following year??[/QUOTE]
I don’t do many mares myself; only my own and only when my husband isn’t available. That being said, I don’t feel rusty with time off, but I do remember being frustrated when I first started. It isn’t so much interpreting what you see on the ultrasound screen, but the actual palpating that frustrated me at first. Learning to feel the uterus, locate the ovaries, etc. took me some time. I would swear that sometimes the ovaries were hiding, and then my husband would try and they would be right there For me it was also nerve-wracking, b/c I was paranoid about being too rough. I never knew if I should push forward sometimes, or wait, so when I first started I was very, very slow and tentative. I practiced on a LOT of recipient mares befored I even did my “own” mares, as if something was going to go wrong I would rather it be a recipient mare than one of “my” mares. The recips are also all used to being palpated a lot, so they are (for the most part) very patient.
Thanks for that info Hillside. I am sure it will be a real learning curve and I am just going to assume that it will take me a few years of alot of trial and error in terms of getting mares pregnant. But the people I know that do do it say it really isn’t at all complicated and that I will never regret learning to do it myself. Hope they are right! I guess if I just can’t get the hang of it with my small group I will either take another course or sell my machine and go back to the vet lol.
Rodawn, the course is being held at a friends place here May 1-5. He is also doing an ET course at another place here a few days prior that another friend is taking. The course I am taking is focused on ultrasounding, inseminating with fresh cooled, frozen and then one day of deep horn and flushing. I asked a friend about the risk of rectal perforation and he said he has never heard of anyone doing it and asked Kubiak the same question. He said in all of his years of doing this he has NEVER had it happen or even known someone who has had it happen. So I think if you are mindful and educated the risks are pretty darn low.
Because of the prohibitive cost and the high learning curve vs. the number of mares we breed, I just started using the P&E protocol and just do a vet ultrasound at 16 days to check pregnancy.
[QUOTE=Sonesta;6163809]
Because of the prohibitive cost and the high learning curve vs. the number of mares we breed, I just started using the P&E protocol and just do a vet ultrasound at 16 days to check pregnancy.[/QUOTE]
That works for most horses, but then there are some mares who even despite P&E and the use of an ovulatory stimulator still do not ovulate on time… or there are even some mares that split their heats and ovulate once then ovulate a second time X number of days after that. I have a mare who sometimes will ovulate twice 3 to 5 days apart. P&E is great at inducing a timed estrus, but then you must use ultrasound on her to monitor the second follicle and if necessary breed her again if it appears she is going to ovulate the second time.
Using P&E obviously means you have to know your mares, but as it works well for most mares, seems a small inconvenience to have to use a vet to ultrasound the few that “didn’t read the book.” Certainly those few do not (to me) justify buying an ultrasound machine.
True and agreed! It’s a good and valid point.
[QUOTE=Donella;6163779]
Rodawn, the course is being held at a friends place here May 1-5. He is also doing an ET course at another place here a few days prior that another friend is taking. The course I am taking is focused on ultrasounding, inseminating with fresh cooled, frozen and then one day of deep horn and flushing. I asked a friend about the risk of rectal perforation and he said he has never heard of anyone doing it and asked Kubiak the same question. He said in all of his years of doing this he has NEVER had it happen or even known someone who has had it happen. So I think if you are mindful and educated the risks are pretty darn low.[/QUOTE]
This surprises me a bit. Rectal tears are one of the leading causes of malpractice suits against equine vets, so they most definitely are not uncommon. You can be very educated and very, very careful and still cause a rectal tear. Knock on wood it has never happened to us, but I know some very good therios who have had it happen. It only takes a mare straining at the wrong time, spooking, kicking, etc to have a big problem. Sometimes you can have a tear without anything seeming to go wrong. It is a small risk, but a very real risk none the less. I just don’t want to see anyone downplay the issue, as it is very, very real and potentially fatal.
[QUOTE=Hillside H Ranch;6164235]
This surprises me a bit. Rectal tears are one of the leading causes of malpractice suits against equine vets, so they most definitely are not uncommon. You can be very educated and very, very careful and still cause a rectal tear. Knock on wood it has never happened to us, but I know some very good therios who have had it happen. It only takes a mare straining at the wrong time, spooking, kicking, etc to have a big problem. Sometimes you can have a tear without anything seeming to go wrong. It is a small risk, but a very real risk none the less. I just don’t want to see anyone downplay the issue, as it is very, very real and potentially fatal.[/QUOTE]
^^^
What she said!!
I hope that you (Donella) have misinterpreted or misunderstood what Kubiak said, as the attitude that you suggest he presented is more Cavalier than I feel comfortable with… 
Oh man, you guys are freaking me out now (this is what was holding me back previously)! I am just repeating what I was told but perhaps the friend who took his course misunderstood?? I asked my vet the same question and she also told me it was very uncommon?
Ughhh…
Maybe I am wrong but I would assume that if one is well instructed and aware that it is very unlikely? I mean…if that is not the case then you are risking the mare taking her to the vet too, or ever having them ultrasounded?
I asked a friend about the risk of rectal perforation and he said he has never heard of anyone doing it and asked Kubiak the same question. He said in all of his years of doing this he has NEVER had it happen or even known someone who has had it happen. So I think if you are mindful and educated the risks are pretty darn low.
Whaattt?!!!
I took the class with Dr Kubiak and that this not at all what he told us. He related in great details the few times he had seen it happened and what the outcomes were.
He was quite open and frank about it actually.
I hope that you (Donella) have misinterpreted or misunderstood what Kubiak said, as the attitude that you suggest he presented is more Cavalier than I feel comfortable with…
I assure you that he was not cavalier about it when I took the class with him. He was honest and straight forward.
Well my stallion died from intestinal perforation. Whether a tear is due to mucosal torsion as in colic, or due to the insertion of a foreign object, i.e. your hand or u/s probe, a perforation is a perforation is a perforation. The results are devastating and usually fatal.
Due to the anatomy of a horse, it is extremely difficult to get the horse into emergency surgery, repair the colorectal tear, flush out the enormous abdominal cavity with antibiotic solution, and then place the horse on recovery with massive doses of intravenous antibiotics. More than likely, the horse would suffer a catastrophic inflammatory storm due to massive infection of the abdominal cavity and result in multi-system organ failure.
The vagina is a bit tougher than the rectum only because it’s cells are more elastic and stretchy, but it can tear and perforate just as easily if the hand/arm is inserted roughly, or the insemination tubing is not inserted correctly. A foal can easily perforate and shred the vagina just due to malposition.
The difference is, a vet has INSURANCE. If he/she damages the mare, it would be expected the vet assume the care of the mare and his/her insurer pays out the liability to the horse owner.
[QUOTE=Donella;6164405]
Oh man, you guys are freaking me out now (this is what was holding me back previously)! I am just repeating what I was told but perhaps the friend who took his course misunderstood?? I asked my vet the same question and she also told me it was very uncommon?
Ughhh…
Maybe I am wrong but I would assume that if one is well instructed and aware that it is very unlikely? I mean…if that is not the case then you are risking the mare taking her to the vet too, or ever having them ultrasounded?[/QUOTE]
YES!!! Everytime a vet palpates a mare, you are taking a risk. Everytime a vet palpates a colicky horse, there is a risk of rectal tear. Everytime. It’s just that most breeder’s don’t think about the risk, as palpating is so common.
Interestingly enough (touching on something Rodawn stated) a vet’s malpractice insurance often WON’T cover a rectal tear. If the vet meets the standard of care (meaning the mare was properly restrained, they provided appropriate first-aid after the tear was recognized, etc) then it isn’t considered malpractice. Rectal tears are considered a recognized risk of the procedure (palpation of any sort) and as such are not (in and of themselves) considered malpractice. In other words, stuff happens
I took Dr. Kubiak’s course and it was super. I did the ultrasound portion last year and went back for the AI and deep horn/lavage classes this past year. Don’t stress about buying a machine yet, and just wait til you take the class. He spends time talking about the pros and cons of the different ultrasounds and we got to use different ones.
I ended up buying mine from Buschkn…who bought it off ebay - its one of the Chinese knockoffs. The machine and I get along just fine and it can do more than I’ll ever need. Ultrasounding does have quite the learning curve to get competent at but it is not rocket science.
The interesting thing is Dr. Kubiak said most of his classes used to be stock horse people. The trend has been changing. The courses I attended last year was 3 warmblood breeders, and 2 Arab breeders. This year it was all warmblood breeders. I also know of several other warmblood breeders doing their own breeding after taking his class. None of the people that I know who took the class are doing it because they have large mare herds. On the contrary, most are small breeders, breeding between 3-6 mares per year. Have fun, you will enjoy the class and the knowledge you gain!
Whaattt?!!!
I took the class with Dr Kubiak and that this not at all what he told us. He related in great details the few times he had seen it happened and what the outcomes were.
He was quite open and frank about it actually.
Wow, ok, well clearly the person I got the information from misunderstood. Yikes.
Do you do your own ultrasounding? What did you think of the course?
Rodawn I am not unaware of the consequences of a rectal perforation…I can imagine (and a I have a degree in zoology and am familiar with the anatomy and physiology of the horse) how awful it would be.
Obviously I was given misinformation and there is a more significant risk than I had recently thought. But as many people I know (as well as many of you) do it generally without issue (and with much success) I am fairly sure the risk is still very small assuming one is very careful and educated.
Krallen, thank you for the encouragement and information! I am really excited! I will heed your advice and wait on the ultrasound until after the course…
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