Unbelievably frustrated with saddle fit!

[LittleMissBigTime]

So i’ve started to become a regular here at COTH forums. I lurk more than I post, but questions and issues keep coming up that I decide I want random unknown peoples’ opinions and advice on.

Some of you other regulars I’m sure will recognize me by my super cute dappled up pony that I ask about regularly.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10592750_10202041014060800_7765229208424606884_n.jpg?oh=de1c06bf121a2b870c1ff86cc9884ef8&oe=5485D0DB&gda=1418127158_ee25199947ce1bb8fd2ec6846c42aa9e

Anyways. I am AT MY WITS END when it comes to saddle fitting issues. They aren’t extreme, there are no rubs, bumps, or anything super crazy going on. BUT I know my horse and I know when something isn’t right with her. When I first got her, I did the good mommy deed and had her evaluated and fitted for a saddle. $160 well spent, right?

So I thought.

Came out of it with an M. Toulouse Annice w/ Genesis adjustment system for $600. (NOT sold by the fitter or anyone she knew, because I could see where my problem might stem from that right there).

She did tweaks and adjustments with the Genesis and evaluated it as a great fit for Bella. Fast forward a month and a half (not enough time to see a significant change in her muscle structure) and we’re having issues. Bella gets SUPER pissy during tack up. (Not ulcers or other issue. This is totally a saddle issue) She sees the saddle pad coming and she just goes grumpy. She knows pain is on the way. Once the girth has pressure on it even to the first hole on the billet, she pins her ears back and swings around, and bites the girth.

Under saddle she works well for about 5 minutes, and then lately she flat out REFUSES to move past a walk, which is EXTREMELY unlike her, as she is a forward forward forward moving horse.

Head tossing and lots of fuss…

She’s uncomfortable.

When I first got her, she would pick up both leads at the canter. Suddenly it’s nearly impossible to get the right lead canter unless we’re on a straight away, and even then she really prefers her left in most situations.

The lady who fit her had told me in conversation about saddle fitting overall, that if the withers didn’t have enough clearance (something to wide for instance) that pressure on the withers can cause a horse to stop moving forward. Sure enough after a frustrating ride on Saturday, on our walk back to the barn, still mounted, I stuck my hand between her withers and the saddle and with every step it squished my hand, hard.

I guess what i am getting at, is that this saddle can be opened up wider or closed down more narrow. I feel like she’s always been wither sensitive. She used to go in this very saddle with a fleeceworks half pad with wither relief cut out. Fitter told me to absolutely NOT use this pad. I disagree. I need a new pad, because this one is more fitted for a 16" saddle and mine is a 17.5".

Suggestions on padding options with wither relief but padding in the general area?

SO confused and so frustrated and almost would believe the general consensus of horse people around the country (world) than this saddle fitter who ate my money and now told me “oh you’re out of luck her muscle changed and this saddle won’t work anymore”…
I’m a single 25 year old who just bought a house, I can’t go out and blow money on new saddles because she changed her opinion of the fit (without coming back down to take a look at it, at that!)

:mad::mad::mad::no::no::no:

half pad suggestions? You can see by her picture that she should NOT be an overly difficult to fit horse… ugh!

[soloudinhere]

Well, it is a bit of a saddle fitting reality that horses do change over time.

That being said, you have an adjustable saddle. What I’m curious about is why you would think that adding more padding to a horse that is sensitive in the withers, would help. That would add MORE pressure there, not less.

Without pics I can’t really tell you exactly what is going on. It could be that you need to make the saddle narrower in front, it could be that your saddle fitter’s an idiot and the saddle doesn’t fit in the shoulders-- impossible to tell.

That said, I have a sensitive pony and he is very picky about what girth is used with what saddles. I had put him in a leather anatomic girth because I thought it was the 'right thing" for him and his big shoulders, but in fact he hated it and got much, much girthier. When I went back to a plain neoprene vented girth, he was fine again. I went back to the coolmax one that we used to use with no issues and he hated that one too. I’ve since learned that he really prefers a very stretchy girth and have made that change with both my saddles for a happier horse.

[LittleMissBigTime]

I know she made the correlation that putting a half pad on a properly fitted saddle is like putting a thick sock on and wearing a perfectly fitted shoe. I get that, I do.

The saddle in my opinion is too wide for the withers as it was adjusted by her, but fits her in the shoulder well. I tweaked it on my own after our terrible ride Saturday, and opened it up two turns and popped the half pad on with it. it filled out the width in the wither area, and kept the shoulder clearance by widening it a bit to accommodate the half pad. She didn’t react nearly as fouly to being saddled with the half pad on. I did not ride in it to confirm, but the process of tacking up went much smoother.

I don’t know what my master plan is with the pad, aside from the fact that it lifted the saddle off her withers and created a buffer between the withers and the saddle, and opening it up a tad more allowed for the shoulder to still move freely with the pad on. I was thinking of also perhaps trying a wither relief foam pad with a front lift, to maybe lift the saddle off her withers but still allow clearance for her shoulders at the width that it was originally set?

I am NO good judge of saddle fit, I will be the first to admit that, which is why I brought someone in to do that for me, who took the time to chalk out her muscles and where this and that and the next thing go and how it works etc etc etc, leading me to believe she really was highly trained and knew what she was doing. But to just say, Oh WELL, it’s been a month and a half and her muscle has changed so much now that this saddle just won’t work, without SEEING it, OR my horse, makes me think she just either doesn’t want to deal with it or is at a loss.

I’ll see if I can dig up any decent enough pictures of her with the saddle on and post if I find.

Like I said, I’m saddle fit idiot, which is why I paid for someone to help me do this…and I think I am just NOT calm cool and collected to start to deal with this yet. :mad:

she goes in a fuzzy girth with double elastic, same one she has had for over a year, never has had it changed to anything different, so I can always venture down that road, but I still am not convinced that that’s what’s pissing her off/making her hurt?

Edit: I don’t think these pictures tell much, as the angles are wrong. It’s all i’ve got until I go out next and take more.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10606329_10201916083217607_59870299925472371_n.jpg?oh=813afaf8d0a1a47947faa942ba4cd736&oe=54979B78&gda=1418341312_d994d40edb39a4f44f8c43f9002e86c9

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[Stormers85]

I’ve just gone through saddle fitting hell as well. My boy is a 4 year old OTTB who has shark fin withers, dips below his withers and large shoulders. I’ve tried about 25+ saddles on him- County, Black Country, Pessoa, M. Toulouse, CWD, etc. I was pleasantly surprised that my HDR dressage saddle fit him because it’s a MW and both the saddle fitter and County rep pegged him for a narrow. I rode him in my dressage saddle with a regular square dressage pad and a Mattes half pad and he has done really well. After a few months, I finally revisited the jump saddle and found that the Dover Circuit with RTF fit the best. It’s on a MW setting as well and I use an AP pad with an Equine Comfort Products half pad that has the foam inserts in the front and back.

He’s so good natured that he’s never shown any grumpiness when tacking up or even riding, but when I’ve ridden in saddles that didn’t fit, I could tell because he would just STOP and refuse to go forward. When I ride in either of these saddles, he’s his happy, forward self.

So I suggest a shimmable pad so you can adjust the pressure. Also, certain saddles have the pommel cut back in different ways- the further cut back the pommel is, the less pressure on the withers.

Good luck!

[cswoodlandfairy]

I would definitely recommend an Oglivy pad. I have a horse with a high wither and had a saddle that just didn’t fit him right. I wasn’t in a position that I could buy a new saddle so I needed to find a way to make my current one fit the best it could. The Oglivy made all the difference in the world. Its made out of a memory foam material so gives away under pressure but molds to the saddle and horse to fill in gaps. I do know that you can even get risers (front and back) for the pads, though I do not have them. It was a night and day difference.

I have found that while its always better to have less, that since I have had my OTTB who is very back sensitive he cant do a saddle without a half pad. This was a great compromise. It will also absorb shock.

The pads I have used to date that I never had luck with were the Mattes pad, and dover circuit pad. I do have a thinline, not a half pad but just the shock absorption pad and that definitely worked but have found the Oglivy to work much better.

[findeight]

Well, if what you were doing before did not bother her? I’d go back to it and not worry about theoretical issues from those who don’t ride her.

Sometimes I think it’s good horses can’t read, keeps them simple.
Usually you have to actually try things to see if they will work or not.

And don’t forget it’s time for transitional estrus, some mares have a terrible time with it. Mine stood on her hind legs and screamed for almost a week, under saddle she grew roots. We didn’t even try most years, she’d show right thru the Regumate or Depo. Week later she was fine.

Do what makes the most sense and produces the best results for you and your nice Pony.

[LittleMissBigTime]

Thanks guys

The BO mentioned that maybe she was in or coming into heat, but I’m just not sure. I’ve been drooling over Oglivy pads even before this issue
Also debated on the thinline, though seeing one in person wasn’t as impressive as I thought it should be…

I guess it’s going to be a trial and error on tweaking the saddle to figure out what she feels “comfortable” in. Last year when she had no muscle whatsoever, she went in the same saddle, with a fleeceworks and a baby pad. I got her May of this year, with a little bit of muscle, and rode her in the same setup until August when she started getting fussy. Had the fitter out, who said yay to the saddle and neigh to the fleeceworks & baby pad. Ditched the fleeceworks and got a “normal” saddle pad with more “curve” for the wither. Went okay for a few weeks and now here we are.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10468686_10202051036511355_6394102435953751723_n.jpg?oh=a1886a9b77ab43724fc41f000616b8a2&oe=54CA51C1&gda=1418244260_46d2e55120c93e66eb672956de597222
decently accurate minus the distance to camera depiction of muscle gained from May to September. Mind you she wasn’t fitted until August, so really she hasn’t changed a whole lot, IMO from August to the bottom picture.

There are just too many padding options/saddle options/conflicting ideas of the two.

Anyone ever just want to pitch the pads and the saddle and stomp your feet and have a tantrum? That’s me right now :yes:
I want to spoil her and have her feel the best she can. The “saddle fitter”'s suggestion to this “new” problem was to sell the Toulouse and get a custom made saddle.

except, UM, no.

Maybe when she’s fully developed her muscle and I’m confident I’m keeping this pony (see other posts about her :lol: ) but now? Absolutely NOT an option. And I feel like in the $600 range that I paid for this saddle, I’m not going to find many other options that would work any differently for her…

Perhaps the thinline is worth a look as far as allowing clearance for the shoulder, but protecting the wither? How thick are the Oglivy pads? Never actually seen one in person.

[IPEsq]

I’ve used these pads for many years:

http://www.equusnow.com/products/wilkers-wither-relief-half-pad.html

I get mine from my local tack shop. Dover also makes a house brand one that is a little cheaper if you live close to a Dover store (because their shipping probably wouldn’t make it cheaper).

[jaybird660]

The first photo suggests that the saddle is slightly pommel high and a bit forward. The second looks low. Many times a horse needs a particular panel configuration, not just tree width to clear the wither and still provide shoulder freedom. Too many people think only to clear the wither and size far too narrow and then restrict the shoulder.

Seeing a naked photo may help. If the lateral shape of the tree is wrong it may be pinching or putting pressure on areas that bother the horse. Did you check to see how the saddle fits laterally from the back?

[cswoodlandfairy]

The Oglivy pads are about an inch thick but don’t feel that way when seated in the saddle. Its definitely a different feel, but never felt I was “far away” from my horse. The difference I felt was that I felt more suspension in his trot and canter. I think it helps with his sensitivity that he feels more confident that he can use his back without a negative feeling.

I actually for the first time since I purchased the pad in June, rode in my saddle without the pad. I was just doing a quick light hack and I hated it and pretty sure he hated it too. His head was raised and he just wasn’t as comfortable as he is with the pad. We didn’t do much as we both felt “off” (and no not lame). So today our pad will be back on.

From my personal experience, it just seemed a cheaper alternative than buying the saddle I had been drooling over at the time. Of course 2 months after getting the pad I bit the bullet and bought the saddle anyways (my cc is not happy with me at the moment) but the pad definitely makes a big difference.

[findeight]

There are good saddle fitters and bad and no uniform training or certification. Not dissing the good ones here…but we have had a few train wreck threads involving the mediocre to bad ones or those pushing saddle brands they rep.

Proof is in the performance and behavior of the horse. Right now you have some minor issues to be expected with a new horse. Keep an open but skeptical mind and keep trying stuff then use what works best for you and this individual horse.

[keatssu]

I’m definitely not an expert, but I’ve just gone through the same thing with my (gray, dappled,) pony mare. She’s a 5 1/2 yr old Connemara who has changed considerably from 4-5. Part muscle development, part normal growth. I won’t go into all of the specifics, but her main issues are being built quite uphill and having gotten too wide for my medium tree saddle. My current saddle is fine on my husband’s Connemara mare who is also wide but not uphill. I struggle with my leg position on my mare but not his. My trainer’s saddle fits my mare better and I notice a big difference in my ability to get my leg where it should be when I ride in her saddle. Anyway, I feel your pain - I never would have believed how much difference saddle fit makes.

It appears to me that your saddle is too far forward and probably does restrict her shoulder movement. Her back looks a bit short, and the girth is right up under her armpits. Mine had the same issues. While I’m waiting for my new saddle I’m having to use a bigger girth and place the saddle farther back which is helping somewhat.

I tried the Ogilvy pad which I did not find helpful in my case. I just felt perched on her back. It squishes down when you are in the saddle. You have to tighten your girth once in the saddle, and I still felt like my saddle shifted from side to side too much. I know people who love them and I’m sure they help in some cases. I sold mine online and had people lined up to buy it within 1/2 hour of posting it on a tack trader site on Facebook, so I’d say they are hard to come by used, but if you do get your hands on one you could easily sell it.

I’m 20 yrs older than you and in a better position to buy a custom saddle, though I hate to have to do it! There are lots of used saddles online and many people offer a trial period. If you decide to sell your mare you could always sell the saddle too.
I advise getting some references on a good saddle fitter, but the only way to be sure of fit is to ride in it.

[FindersKeepers]

Just went through this with my TB mare and do not envy you at all. In my case, she is built like a Quart Horse with no withers and wide shoulders. I had to sell my saddle of 17 years, then bought something else that fit better than my original but not better enough, and finally after many trials, found that a cheap HDR fits her best of anything… My entire issue was finding a saddle wide enough for her shoulders that doesn’t crush her withers.

I got lucky finding an off-the-shelf solution that she and I are both happy with.

One more note to mention, is because of her wide shoulders, I do have to sit the saddle back about an inch further than where I “think” it should be. That tiny movement made a HUGE difference. It now sits in the natural spot that it would work it’s way to during our ride anyway… I just start it there and avoid the 15 minutes of angry mare.

[rhymeswithfizz]

It’s hard to tell from the photos, but since I have been dealing with back soreness a lot lately (for different reasons), I am hypersensitive to wither and spine clearance.

It’s possible that even though it looks like your saddle is clearing her withers, that it’s still not working – how clear is it when you put weight in it? The back of the saddle looks curvier than her back does, which might mean there is some subtle rocking going on as well. When you sit with your full weight in the saddle, ideally you still want three fingers clearance. If you aren’t getting it right now due to muscle atrophy, pad the atrophied areas so you can lift the saddle above the withers. But be careful, you still want that space above withers, so pad it so that you are lifting, not just adding to the pinch.

The other thing that my horses have always been sensitive to is gullet width. One reason I dislike “adjustable” saddles is that changing the tree width also changes the gullet width. If your girl has long withers, even if they are not particularly high, she may need a more generous and roomier gullet than a typical horse. I like County and Albion for this reason. That can’t really be helped with padding though.

My older horse just came back from a lease gone bad with significant weight and muscle loss, and his old saddle no longer fit. He was also VERY back sore, I think partly because the lessee was riding in a saddle that did not fit (which got worse as he got thinner) and really sat on his ginormous withers. I couldn’t get him to build any muscle because he didn’t want to use his back, and he didn’t want to use his back because it hurt, and it hurt because he didn’t have any muscle. Vicious circle. So there has been much creative padding, and I’ve been constantly adjusting saddle padding as he is filling back in. He had lost so much substance and I kept striking out with my usually pad options (sheepskin, thin lines, etc) that I finally got a huge, thick western pad that bridged the sore spots and distributed weight across more of his back, then added my Toklat Woolback half pad on top of that. Then finally he was comfortable. We’ve finally put the western pad away in exchange for a Thinline pad, but he’s still got a ways to go.

But then, it might not be the saddle at all. Another story: a few months ago I was having an issue with my young OTTB starting to buck at the canter depart. Not just silly baby horse buck, but definite “ouch” bucks. Vet found some residual back soreness, not caused directly by the saddle, but muscle weakness across the loin, horse just not able to support the squeeze of a sitting canter aid and telling me ouch. This is with a saddle that fit very well. Vet told me to get off his back for a while (no sitting at the canter ever) and prescribed that same big giant thick western pad, again to support and distribute the weight across the weak spot while he built up the strength, and to let him forget that it hurt. It totally worked!

Anyways, I can empathize, it’s tough figuring these things out. I would start by figuring out where exactly she hurts (palpate), and then seeing how you can dissipate that pressure or support a weak spot. And adjust as you go. Sheepskin or real wool fleece should be used right on the horse’s back (not on top of another pad), it will help dissipate heat and let the saddle move against her hide more freely. (Drives me crazy when I see people use those nice fleeceworks pads on top of a square pad. I know it looks pretty but it sort of ruins the point …)

[Limerick]

In my opinion (learned from my trainer) you have the saddle too far forward. Try putting back behind the shoulders. I usually make sure there is an inch between front of saddle and shoulders. Imagine the shoulder moving back and having more freedom. Also, put your hand under the flap as you walk and see if it is pinching her shoulders.

Just my humble opinion…

[LittleMissBigTime]

Hey everyone…a quick update…

I have tried a couple of different padding options. I tried fleeceworks half pad with square pad underneath, and she was an absolute Bit** to girth up. Bloated out and was extremely rude. When I check all areas I think might be causing discomfort, I get no reaction from her. I run down her entire spine with no issue. Tomorrow I’m going to try her in my roma pad which is more plush and has ample wither relief to see if that might make any kind of difference.

We had a terrible ride yesterday.

Started out fine, got about 3 minutes of trot work in and took a quick breather. could not get her to trot after… took me a good 10 minutes doing a combination of kick, squeeze, swear under my breath, smack on the butt, etc…Got a trot again, asked for canter, finished canter and went back to walk…Same thing, couldn’t get her to go past a walk…I could have kicked and squeezed until her sides were black and blue and that mare was not moving past a walk. I did some turns and asked other things of her, so as not to end the ride on her “winning”…

I had the barn owner hop on her to see whether or not it was ME, or her. She had the same issue getting her going, but eventually got her to move off at the trot.

When she has these tiffs shes chewing on the bit, turning her head side to side, looking at your feet in the stirrups, just acting out of sorts. When you ask “forcefully” for her to move faster, she doesn’t respond negatively, but just keeps walking around.

BO suggested again, being in heat, or possibly being sour to the fact that the horses were in turn out, and maybe she wasn’t happy about that. Will be riding her in the morning tomorrow so maybe I can determine if that’s the case, when all the horses are in.

Sunday I think I’ll hop on her bareback and see if she reacts the same way. (this will be a first on her…wish me luck)

I’m just getting so frustrated because it seems we have some great weeks, and then have drawbacks. I know when I am getting increasingly frustrated with her that it’s not doing me or her any good, so I try to keep it lighthearted, but seriously?! She’s a super forward horse, so when she does this, it just makes me SOOOO mad!

I did notice she was a little out of sorts yesterday when I was picking her feet. She never ever gives me any sass with that, and for some reason when I did one of her back feet she thought that attempting to strike out and kick constantly was a neat idea. Thankfully she’s a pony so holding her leg while doing this was easily do-able. I gave her a real big “QUIT” and she stopped. Very very unlike her. she typically has great ground manners.

Could it be a bad heat? Are some heats worse than others? Because her antics don’t line up with being in like with the frequency of the average mare’s heat. I’ve always done the gelding thing, so this whole “she’s a bitch because she’s in heat” is hard for me to wrap my head around…

[Dewey]

I haven’t read the whole thread, but it sounds as if if her pain and crabbiness may have to do with her heat cycle. You might try some of the common treatments first (Regumate, etc.) to see if those help. If not, she may be a candidate for spaying.

[Jealoushe]

Ulcers??

[Jumper_girl221]

My mare out of the blue started refusing to move forward and popping her front end or almost running backwards. Bute test, nothing helped. Not back sore.

Finally remembered this started 5 days after she got a new fly sheet…took the fly sheet off, 2 days later w/t/c and jumping like normal.

Something about the sheet must have been enough to bother her…I mean she was shutting down backing up, at one point backed through a ditch, another into the gate of the riding ring so hard she cut her haunches.

If she’s refusing to move and its a new behavior I would put money on something bothering her, be it her cycle, ulcers, saddle, feet, etc.

[rhymeswithfizz]

Sounds like it’s getting extreme enough that you should get the vet out to find the root cause. Stop riding until you can figure out what hurts.