Unbelievably frustrated with saddle fit!

Melissa.Van_Doren · August 26, 2020, 1:54am

First, sorry you’re having such trouble!

From the photo of your adorable pony’s topline, an M Toulouse would not have been my choice for fit. Between the tree shape and the gusseted panels, they often bridge on this type of back. Have you checked? Place the saddle on her bare back and hold it in place with one hand. Run your other hand under the panels on both sides and pay attention to how it’s making contact (or not) along the entire length. If you feel a gap, it’s likely to be directly under where you sit. And if you feel a gap, that could be your problem. Bridging places pressure at the withers and on the low back and can quickly make a sensitive horse resistant, even if the width at the shoulders is correct.

ETA: Seat size vs back length can also make it challenging when adults ride ponies. Can you post a pic with you in your current saddle?

GrumpyMare · August 26, 2020, 1:55am

Co![](pletely OT, but your pony looks so much like my pony!

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/bgexotics/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-05/837E292E-958A-4F7C-91BA-95CA4DCD22EB_zpspvvbch9w.jpg)

LittleMissBigTime · August 26, 2020, 1:55am

[QUOTE=Melissa.Van Doren;7768091]
First, sorry you’re having such trouble!

From the photo of your adorable pony’s topline, an M Toulouse would not have been my choice for fit. Between the tree shape and the gusseted panels, they often bridge on this type of back. Have you checked? Place the saddle on her bare back and hold it in place with one hand. Run your other hand under the panels on both sides and pay attention to how it’s making contact (or not) along the entire length. If you feel a gap, it’s likely to be directly under where you sit. And if you feel a gap, that could be your problem. Bridging places pressure at the withers and on the low back and can quickly make a sensitive horse resistant, even if the width at the shoulders is correct.

ETA: Seat size vs back length can also make it challenging when adults ride ponies. Can you post a pic with you in your current saddle?[/QUOTE]

Saddle “fitter” (still sour with her) claims no bridging, and upon check, everything seems to check out and no sign of bridging on her back.

The only picture of me in saddle on her that I have available at work is this one, which was taken before the saddle fitter was out:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10446556_10201673290067930_8586223756133109301_n.jpg?oh=9ddc6180b06de5177864a2b8e9d5fcb2&oe=54CE7C01&gda=1422952215_c5c2a6ff3c97d04e376edd451a6be80b

Ulcers were a discussion but vet doesn’t agree with that and also doesn’t believe in treatment without a definitive diagnosis & doesn’t seem to think her wonky attitude fits ulcer territory enough to suggest scoping. She passed a PPE in May and in subsequent visits out vet doesn’t see issues. She’s on MSM for supportive care to help prevent inflammation and as a nice supplement for coat.

Planning to have chiro out at the beginning of October, hoping for some insight from her.

Still leaning towards heat… going to do some investigating into seeing if she’s showing any other signs of being in heat. And also will be marking this “week of hell with her” on the calendar to see if it lines up with any subsequent issues. It’s like we have a few good weeks and then we go five steps backwards…she’s a rock star and then she’s a bi*ch.

While I don’t think the saddle is a perfect fit, she did go in it all last summer, and also had other saddles which I know were not “fitted” or approved by a fitter, and never had issues at those times. Which leads me to question, that although it might not be a superb fit, that these issues aren’t saddle related.

This mare leaves me scratching my head more than I ever thought she would.

She’s always been tough…the BO (and also her previous owner) had sent her away as a 4 year old for training and she got extensive parelli training (not necessarily my choice to re-back a horse, but Bella was from what I was told, a DANGER because she was SO dominant, and the parelli really helped her figure out her place in the herd-so to speak.

SO maybe she is just an emotional bitch. I really don’t know.

Also seeking trainers, will be bringing a few in over the next few weeks to see what some outside fresh eyes think about the issues and her in general.

I want to think she’s in pain, because it would be logical, but I just can’t get her to say “ouch” to anything when I palpate.

my head is spinning at this point…boy oh boy if this pony wasn’t so stinking cute…

LittleMissBigTime · August 26, 2020, 1:55am

[QUOTE=![](rumpyMare;7768116]
Completely OT, but your pony looks so much like my pony!

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/bgexotics/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-05/837E292E-958A-4F7C-91BA-95CA4DCD22EB_zpspvvbch9w.jpg)[/QUOTE]

OH HOW CUTE!

what breed?

Mine is a mutt of some sort, but really have NO clue what she is!

GrumpyMare · August 26, 2020, 1:55am

She is registered half welsh, I have no idea what the other half is.

LittleMissBigTime · August 26, 2020, 1:55am

Her previous owner wanted to call mine a Connemara, but she’s extremely dainty. I had posted about suggestions on her breed here before, and a lot of people said they saw Welsh in her. I guess I’ll probably never know, all I know for certain is she’s pretty stinking unique and gorgeous (that goes for yours as well, they could be twins!)

Melissa.Van_Doren · August 26, 2020, 1:55am

So, my next test is always a clean white saddle pad on a (relatively) dirty back. Sweat marks are not always definitive, but they do tell a story. Also, put your saddle on (again, no pad) girth it as normal, and sit in it. Can you pass a whip down the center of the gullet? In the undersaddle pic, the saddle is sitting very forward, which can make an iffy gullet clearance sit down on the rear of the withers. It also looks, though the angle of the pic may be at fault, like you could use a longer seat size to get you into the center of the saddle where weight distribution is best for this brand.

Squirt · August 26, 2020, 1:57am

You might want to check the set screws on the genesis system. They have been known to come loose and then the tree width can change, usually to too wide.

findeight · August 26, 2020, 1:58am

OP? Mare’s cycle is 21 days. Think back at the interval between witchy day episodes. Mares don’t read the book about symptoms of estrus so there may be nothing to see except annoying behavior, extra sensitivity to touch and surroundings and crankiness/fussiness.

Going forward, she should be in anestrus ( not ovulating) by mid November at the latest so you should be cycle free until around March. Unless she’s one of those that gets " stuck". Unusual but does happen, more often it’s just crappy manners though.

If she stops acting awful every few weeks in the next 6 weeks or so, you’ll know. There’s a couple of threads over on Horse Care you might want to look at and searching will bring up quite a few more.

AdrenalineJunky · August 26, 2020, 1:58am

Has the saddle fitter actually physically been back out recently to look at the fit? If not, then get her back out. If she puts up a fuss, call her boss, call his boss. Obviously saddle needs to be readjusted.

LittleMissBigTime · August 26, 2020, 2:10am

[QUOTE=AdrenalineJunky;7769106]
Has the saddle fitter actually physically been back out recently to look at the fit? If not, then get her back out. If she puts up a fuss, call her boss, call his boss. Obviously saddle needs to be readjusted.[/QUOTE]

I think this was why I was most frustrated with her! She did NOT come back out to evaluate.

I actually just had an email conversation with her, after a week of cooling off (being mad at her). She says that the saddle is falling on her wither because it’s too wide; and it’s set too wide because the angle to clear her shoulders is wrong. So it has to be set wide to clear the shoulders and in turn is crushing her withers. When I kind of blew up and flipped out a little bit about being upset that she told me this was a good fit, took her advice and bought this saddle, she told me I could try a thin line with shims in the front to raise it off her withers, as a band aid until I can afford or find something else that fits her.

SO, new topic! If it indeed is the saddle fit that’s causing all this crap, which Im sure it is, anyone else have any experience with saddles that are medium-ish with a wider angle for shoulder clearance? She did NOT give me brand suggestions, which is annoying. Also, pad options. Thinline with shims in front? set the saddle for the shoulder and pad up front to lift off withers? Ideas?

:no:this is all too complicated!

Jumper_girl221 · August 26, 2020, 2:11am

I had a similar issue with my mare, I ended up getting a black country, Medium wide, to fit the mares shoulders. Then (since they have all sorts of cool options) full front gussets to both help keep it off the wither and to also keep it from sliding forward, and K panels for her wither hollows.

JustJump · August 26, 2020, 2:13am

Second time I have seen a tack thread on COTH this week, with my first thought being…hmmm we don’t have the whole story here. It’s not just the saddle, it’s who sits in it and how. That would be a good picture to form some judgements about. A pony with no saddle on? Nice pony, but it won’t help in determining suggestions.

In your photos, the September pony has more weight, not simply muscle.

She looks good. Shouldn’t be a ‘hard’ saddle fit. People make way too much of saddle fit. If a saddle is extremely narrow or extremely wide, it will cause problems, but an average saddle on an average horse should work even if you have to modify how it sits with a corrective pad.

Saddles are expensive…pads are cheap in comparison. That’s why you can get a lot of use from one saddle on many horses with the right pads.

Many, many horses don’t react well to the saddle if they know they are going to soon have the discomfort of girthing along with it. They aren’t dumb–they recognize the sequence. Some actually HATE the saddling process. Many a pony has deposited its rider on the ground by exhaling after sucking air into its belly at saddling time. It’s an old pony trick. Lots of horses know it too.

The balking does sound like–but if you’ve ruled out ulcers, you must have scoped for them, right? Because if not…your saddle might just fit fine.

LittleMissBigTime · August 26, 2020, 2:20am

[QUOTE=JustJump;7772582]
Second time I have seen a tack thread on COTH this week, with my first thought being…hmmm we don’t have the whole story here. It’s not just the saddle, it’s who sits in it and how. That would be a good picture to form some judgements about. A pony with no saddle on? Nice pony, but it won’t help in determining suggestions.

In your photos, the September pony has more weight, not simply muscle.

She looks good. Shouldn’t be a ‘hard’ saddle fit. People make way too much of saddle fit. If a saddle is extremely narrow or extremely wide, it will cause problems, but an average saddle on an average horse should work even if you have to modify how it sits with a corrective pad.

Saddles are expensive…pads are cheap in comparison. That’s why you can get a lot of use from one saddle on many horses with the right pads.

Many, many horses don’t react well to the saddle if they know they are going to soon have the discomfort of girthing along with it. They aren’t dumb–they recognize the sequence. Some actually HATE the saddling process. Many a pony has deposited its rider on the ground by exhaling after sucking air into its belly at saddling time. It’s an old pony trick. Lots of horses know it too.

The balking does sound like–but if you’ve ruled out ulcers, you must have scoped for them, right? Because if not…your saddle might just fit fine.[/QUOTE]

somewhere lost in this thread I posted under saddle pictures with me in the tack.

She doesn’t react to the girth area alone, also doesn’t oppose to the surcingle going on her and being tightened. I go gradual, slow, and as nicely as I can.

Upon a discussion with the original fitter, she says the saddle is adjusted wide for shoulder relief, and is now sitting on her withers. Told me to get a different saddle or try padding with shims in front to raise off withers.

As I stated before, no, she was not scoped for ulcers. Vet doesn’t buy into the ulcer hype, especially with her lack of symptoms aside from this behavior. While I can’t say whether I agree or not, I will get a second opinion on ulcers/scoping when another vet is out for two special case horses on the farm.

CHT · August 26, 2020, 2:23am

I agree with JustJump. Healthy horses seem to have pretty good tolerance for a poor fitting saddle, although they may not work to their potential, and may show subtle signs of displeasure (not stand still to be mounted, bloating, moving less freely). It has been my experience, that horses that are difficult/picky about saddle fit have an underlying issue that makes them less tolerant.

The pain doesn’t even have to be related to the saddle area, just was it is with people with chronic pain, they become more sensitized to ANY pain.

Could your horse have damaged her back? Could she have sore muscles from her new work load?

If it were my horse, I would STOP putting the saddle on her for now (you are just reinforcing her bad behaviour at best, and at worst doing damage to her back) and do longing or ground work to see if her “Attitude” carries over to other types of training. Trying bareback isn’t a bad idea either. I would have a vet out though.

goodmorning · August 26, 2020, 2:23am

I’d suggest hormones & ulcer meds. Easy & cheap…it’s a tough time of year for mares. I too think ulcers are the first suggestion too often, however, in a mare that’s gotten herself worried? Who is to say that ulcers are flaring up or bothering her? I can tell you without Regumate at this time of year, my mare is not her normal self. Bent out of shape over things she’s too snobby to look at normally. That additional self-induced stress could surely lead to ulcers.

LittleMissBigTime · August 26, 2020, 2:25am

Going to have a second opinion exam when surgicare comes for the two “special” horses at the farm. Have them check her back, and any other areas, as well as discuss ulcers. Also having an acupuncture/chiro out second week of October to do some work on her.

I took my mare on a “walk” yesterday.

We’ve had a lot of rain, and I couldn’t ride even if I wanted to, and am giving her some time off her 4X a week workload.

I lunged her in the huge dry field next to the barn. She was naked aside from her rope halter. (it’s a parelli halter and when she has it on, she minds her manners very well in new environments)

Then we walked. And walked. And walked. We walked to every corner of that 7 acre field, we walked under trees, through branches, up and down ditches, through mud, up and down small hills, stepped on scary sounding palm fronds, up the paved driveway to fetch her flymask that she removed and deposited on the other side of the paddock fence, stopped at my car, walked around it, opened the door to throw something inside, up and down, all around…

she was super quiet, interested, but spook-less the entire time.

It was so good for her mind, and my mind, and for our relationship. I think she really enjoyed it.

My ankles however, despite having muck boots on, are crying, with mosquito and various other bites all over.

I think on Thursday we will do the same thing, or I’ll see what other scary ground work type of things I can dredge up to keep her mind and body working without her realizing it’s work.

JustJump · August 26, 2020, 2:25am

[QUOTE=LittleMissBigTime;7768145]
Saddle “fitter” (still sour with her) claims no bridging, and upon check, everything seems to check out and no sign of bridging on her back.