To be clear, the dangerous horse I referenced above was always treated well. I had him since a baby. He was expected to behave on the ground but honestly, he was really good and I never had any trouble with him. He was sent to a super kind, gentle starter. I am 100% sure he didn’t have bad experiences there. It was only when I got him home and started asking him to more consistently do very basic WTC flatwork that he fell apart. In retrospect he could have had the mental problem all along, he just didn’t mind doing baby manners-type things. but he was not a horse that was abused or spoiled rotten. I think it was innate and he was “born that way.”
i actually bought him initially because he was so easy and laid back as a baby, not just his looks and movement. That was a big miss! I do think it is super duper rare…I have worked with hundreds of horses and only seen it the one time. I have seen plenty of horses with issues because of their past handling…that feels very different.
I don’t think you can really parallel horses and dogs on behavior issues. Dogs are predators and see the world as a banquet of possible dinners. Horses are prey and are constantly on guard against “dogs” that want to eat them. We humans use each of these animals for our own purposes and use those traits for our benefit. But I’m not sure you can ever compare them.
True genetic “outlaws” are mercifully rare in horses. The ones I’ve know (and those have been few) were made that way by human activity. Sometimes the activity was intended, sometimes it wasn’t. No matter; the result was the same.
I’ve owned only one “mean” dog. He was a very well bred St. Bernard. He nipped a guest who came up behind him while he was dozing. We wrote that one off as her “surprising” him. He later bit my wife intentionally while I was out of town (she never told me and cleaned up the bloody towel and pillowcase as she knew what my reaction would likely be). He then bit my lawyer (that cost my insurance company $5000). We put him down after that. I have been bitten a couple of times by mean dogs owned by others.
I’ve only owned one truly dangerous horse, a Walker I took in trade. She was a drop dead gorgeous Midnight Sun mare that had a mouth of iron, sides or iron, and a willingness to endanger he rider if she became annoyed. I think we kept her less than a week and then I sold her to a “buyer of last resort.” He offered me an extra $100 for her papers and I said that I wanted her in a can 'cause she was going to hurt somebody. It’s the only horse I ever sold like that.
Serious behavior issues need serious treatment. It might be veterinary and it might be training. Both have the potential to be very expensive and money counts. I’ve not no heartburn with anybody who says, “I can’t do this for personal reasons; I’m going to put them down.” Or sell them to slaughter. That’s the personal decision of the owner. Nor do I have any problems with sale, lease, or gift to somebody who wants to try a “rehab” as long as both parties are honest with each other. That, too, is personal choice.
One thing I’m noticing about your description of the dog and the horse, is that you make no mention of the look in the eyes. That’s the difference.
The mares I reference earlier had been spoiled by a timid owner who apparently, had tried to “get firm” with them and failed miserably. The mares had discovered that they were bigger, faster and stronger than their owner. So when they were faced with cowboys who could handle them, they learned the fight wasn’t worth it. When I first started handling my mare, there was a point where she tried to “out horse” me. If I had been all “kissy wissy, horsey porsey”, I would have been in trouble in a hurry.
When I was young, our family had a Chow/Akita mix who needed to be handled correctly, or he would attempt to move his way up the pack. My then husband and I adopted him from the pound and as soon as he decided the yard was his, he wouldn’t let my mother take out the garbage – stood at the back door and growled at her - so we called a trainer out. He was the one who first taught us about “Never, never hit your dog!” We learned how to deal with his “pack level desires” without causing more trouble. And for the rest of his life, when he started getting uppity (we could tell because he would quit knowing any of the many commands he knew), we put the word out “Time to quit petting Ted!” and he would start remembering them again. We now lovingly remember him as “Ted the Wonder Dog!”
What Fordtraktor and I are talking about is a different thing entirely. I believe this because of how FT described the eyes. If you’ve never seen it, call yourself fortunate, because it is something you WILL NOT FORGET. It’s just eerie. It’s like when you look at him, and “he’s not there”. The animal you thought you knew is not home inside. I think this is where the old idea of demon possession came from, way back when, because whoever IS home, is EVIL.
Epilepsy may be very rare in horses, but it does exist. How many horses have been described on these very boards over the years? Probably thousands. And how many have been described in this way? One, which I know of. Evolutionary changes between prey and predator, of course exist, but brains are brains, and on a biochemical level are very similar in more ways than not.
Please don’t discount what Fordtraktor is saying just because it’s about a horse. If you EVER see that look in the animal’s eye, I guarantee, the hackles on the back of your neck will rise…
That is exactly how it was, Sparrowette. I just got goosebumps again thinking about those eyes.
it was also one of the most eerie experiences – the last time I rode him, I had this incredibly compelling feeling he was going to rear up and flip over on me. We hadn’t even been doing anything much…he was fine, just a bit balky. I got off right then, and before I was back at the barn I had called the trainer and asked if they wanted him.
The next morning when they came to get him, he took one look at their trailer (different than mine, it was a step up) – reared up and flipped over so hard he knocked himself out of breath and couldn’t get up for five minutes. when he finally got to his feet, he immediately did it again – in the direction of the closest person. He had never flipped over or even reared more than being a bit light in front once or twice…I just had this strong feeling he was thinking about it the day before.
I can’t help but think my guardian angel told me to get off that horse. If he’d done that with me on him, I don’t think I could have gotten out of the way – it was so fast.
I’ve been on a horse that reared with the intent of scaring his rider. He made it damn clear he would go over if pushed and he really didn’t care if it would hurt. I told his owner he needed to be shot. If it had been blind fear that would have been one thing, but it was mean streak.
I’m so glad your guardian angel was on the job. If mine was trying to say anything, I wasn’t listening, but that happens so much with me.
With the dog, my vet offered me the option of pharmaceuticals, which in my mind essentially condemned the dog to a lifetime of being stoned, continuously. Plus the possibility of something happening if medicinal blood levels fell. I waited a long time, longer than I should have, because I didn’t want to do what I had to do, then one day the shade came over him again, and he lunged at me. I put my arm up and he got that, and I still have the scars from the stitches. Even had to wear an arm brace for a while to keep my wrist from moving too much and tearing them out.
I went to wiki and read about this again, and there was a section about the onset of RS in dogs:
[INDENT]“Dr. Roger A. Mugford, to whom the term is attributed,[1] identified that the problem starts on average at around seven and a half months old in English Springer Spaniels. However some of his research subjects showed signs at as early as three months and as late as two years. He did find however that many dogs displayed their first symptoms on or around one of the five critical learning periods identified in dogs. These occur at six weeks old, 12 weeks old, 24 weeks or six months, one year old and two years old.[1]”[/INDENT]
This researcher found that there was generally a specific time in development where the condition would appear, a “critical learning period”, so it would make sense - and I’m speaking on the basis that the dog and equine versions would be acting in a fairly similar developmental timeline, biochemically - that when you found this horse as a youngster, the condition would not have been evident, so there was no “big miss” in your evaluation of the horse, prior to purchase.
[INDENT]“Although the scientific evidence is limited, rage syndrome has been described as an epileptic disorder affecting the emotion-related parts of the dog’s brain.[9]There is also some evidence that in at least some cases it is an inheritable genetic disorder. In English Springer Spaniels, the appearance of rage syndrome has been traced back to a winner at the Westminster Kennel Club show who went on to become a top stud.[8] (see Popular sire effect)”[/INDENT]
I will suggest that the reason we see this more in dogs is because they are smaller. It is not seen so much in horses, because for as long as humans have controlled equine breeding, we have allowed horses less genetic leeway regarding behavior due to their size. If the horse did not behave correctly, was danagerous, he was most likely killed. With an animal this size, we humans didn’t played games. This condition is scary enough in dogs, a relatively small animal. I can hardly imagine dealing with a horse that has it.
We have one who does the blind panic thing. He is not TRYING to hurt you or himself- but he absolutely is a danger to himself and everyone around him when in that state. Agree that it is in the eyes- there just isn’t anyone in there when he panics.
For him, it is restraint- he has reared and he has flipped over, both on the ground and with a rider, but his main issue is being trapped or tied. He bent a priefert stall panel about 4" when he got his halter stuck.-
With a LOT of work, he has not reared in several years, and can be “tied” with a blocker ring. He has 1-2 incidents a year usually, and he has actually come back to me during , although it took a bit- it’s like he doesn’t even see anyone and it took a lot of yelling his name and he blinked and let me help him.
He is SUCH a good boy though- he tries so very hard. I think he was in a trailer wreck- his history is unknown, but he came with wicked scars that look like either sheet metal or wire- and trailering was very very hard to teach him to accept. We live around these issues, and we don’t let anyone ride or handle him who can’t deal with an episode, just in case.
Known two that checked out, had that bank stare and started flipping over in 45+ years. One, well bred, fancy paint show mare had killed a rider and later itself. It was about 8, started getting that checked out blank stare then behaving erratically, not all the time though, including going up. Went up and over killing one rider. They hauled it to auction (…???..), somebody thought they got lucky with a potential brood mare, not realizing its nickname on the circuit was The Black Widow or not caring because it didn’t do it all he time, they weren’t going to ride it and it was cheap… Couple months later mare was found dead in the stall. There was a broken rafter and some cracked sideboards., pretty clear what happened.
Years later there was another in he barn I was boarding at that suddenly started having periods of that blank stare accompanied by violent behavior. Never got the whole story, wasn’t mine, wasn’t there the day the worst one happened. Apparently it checked out, reared, went over then got up and ran headlong into the side of the barn, knocked itself out. Rider felt it going up and bailed unhurt. Their vet was affiliated with a nearby vet school, recommended they haul it there and donate it for euthanasia and necropsy as part of a study. It had an apparently rapidly enlarging brain tumor in a location that would effect control and behavior.
Often wonder if that Back Widow mare who showed the same characteristic blank stare before intermittent episodes of violent behavior had one too…but that was long ago and necropsies were very rare, as was insurance.
I live across the street from a H/J barn. There was a boarder there that owned a vicious Morgen gelding. Apparently, she had worked at a high profile Morgan breeding/show barn. This particular horse was out of a line known to have temperament issues and the story was that the farm was going to euthanize him. She talked them into giving him to her. This horse was nuts. The only person who was allowed to handle him was the owner. It got to the point that vets and farriers refused to work on him. I don’t know if the owner was ever able to ride him. Eventually he was euthanized, I think because the barn wanted him OUT and there was no other place that she could take him.
For the most part, I don’t care what other people do with their horses, in their own time, in their own space. That’s your risk. However, I do not agree with selling a horse that you know has handling issues and is a danger to others. I also would not want a horse like that at a boarding facility where he could be a threat to others.
Part of my “agreement” as a boarder, IMO, is ensuring that my horse can be safely handled by others. You never know what could happen. If I were unable to make it to the barn, horses got loose, there was another emergency, etc.
Others that don’t do their due diligence are just rude. Again, IMO. I would never purposely endanger others (crap still happens, because horses), and consider it disrespectful to the BO/BM/barn staff to leave them with my known dangerous horse.
Some horses are also perfectly fine until you really ask them something. My WB could jog around all day with a beginner. Head low, ears forward, no protests. Ask him to really do something and let the protests begin! Not a health issue, just an attitude issue. Therefore, he’s with a pro now because while I can handle it, I choose not to. I found a greener, yet more willing mount. However, I was upfront about why I sold him.
I’m chiming in late but if he is as dangerous as he sounds, you should put him down. That is the most humane thing you could do for this animal rather than having him end up in a worse situation aka back to slaughter or with someone who will abuse him or get themselves killed. With animals like this, euthanasia is a gift, not a punishment. Do what is best for him and put him down, please.
