Understanding trainer relationship and protocols

[BDubs]

Hello all!

Can someone please share a little insight with me around the trainer/client relationship?

I don’t want to draw things out too much, but on two separate occasions, my trainer has said, in response to a decision I have made, that “this is the hit I did not want to take to my reputation.“.

The first time was when we put my dangerous thoroughbred on the market to sell (the first time I owned a horse, I received very bad advice and ended up with the wrong horse). We put her on the market on Tuesday, and on Wednesday, her barn got shut down (she was in the middle of a divorce and her husband owned the barn and kicked her out. I did ask her if this was a possibility before I brought my horse there to board and she assured me that it was not, but it happened anyway). so the next day, she told me she was really having a hard time moving my horse and could I drop the price. I agreed. She got back to me later that day, and said she thought that unless I wanted to move my horse to another barn and start a new boarding contract elsewhere , (mind you this is a horse that, as a beginner, was not safe for me to ride) that I was probably going to have to give her away and she had found someone to give her to who was going to train her, collect her, and sell her. I did some quick research and found a wonderful charity for off the track thoroughbreds that would also take her for free, but guarantee her a place to retire for life. I felt that was the better decision, and when I told her I wanted to explore that she said “then I’m going to get out of the way and let you handle this yourself. I already told that other Barn owner that you would be OK to give the horse to her, and now I’m going to take a hit to my reputation.“ So there was less than a 24 hour period between the time she told this woman she could have the horse for free, and when I canceled. I called the woman myself and told her what I was thinking about, and she was completely cool, not at all upset, and that was the end of it. I felt terrible that I might have compromised my trainer in some way, but it was honestly hard for me to see how that put her in a bad position.

So now I am trying again and want to lease a horse because of this bad experience I had with purchasing. I ride a horse (the first horse I tried in this leasing process. I have not ridden five or six horses, this was the very first one, and owned by a woman that my trainer was leasing one of her horses too, so it was a very arm’s-length, friendly relationship) on Thursday and it goes well, on Friday we discussed moving forward. On Saturday night they sent me the contract (which my trainer told me was a cut and paste of the contract that they used when she leased her horse to the woman who owned the horse I was considering leasing, so it was not like there was time drafting a new contract) and I start tallying up the expenses along with the training packages etc. and I come back and tell her that I think it would be smarter for me to invest my money in lessons, riding a lot of different kinds of horses, instead of committing to just one, and waiting a bit to go into a lease or a purchase. Once again she says “this is the hit I did not want to take to my reputation.“

So my question to you is, am I doing something wrong here? When I rode the horse Thursday And it went well, she said “sleep on it. Take your time.” Everybody was going to a show over the weekend, so there was no option to speak to her about my concerns, just text back-and-forth on Saturday at which time she went from “take your time“ to “you need to decide because I can pick the horse up here at the show and bring it back on Sunday and I need to arrange a stall, the Farrier, etc. etc.“.

So it went from take your time on Thursday night to hurry up on Saturday, so on Sunday when I crunched the numbers and I was feeling incredibly rushed and having nothing but text conversations with my trainer, I told her I thought it would be better not to move forward and take my time, and she basically told me I was ruining her reputation. (Because she had to cancel with the woman who owned the horse, the barn, where I would be boarding, the dentist, and the Farrier.) She said I should have known what this would cost. Keep in mind, because her Barn closed down my boarding fees were going up $300 a month and my training fees were going up $350 a month. My son also rides and when we owned a horse he was riding her with me under the same training package. With this horse that I would be leasing, he would have to take lessons completely separately, so that’s another $500 a month and lessons for him. So I was looking at a monthly increase of, almost $1200 over the course of a year to lease a horse that my trainer told me would not be a horse I should purchase, but just learn for a year.

Honestly, this statement about ruining her reputation felt like a guilt trip, especially where this was now the second occasion where I felt like I was being rushed through a life-changing decision. I want to be respectful of everyone involved. I offered to pay her fee of 10% of the lease price, even though I was not planning to move forward, and I also offered to pay the woman whose horse I was considering for the time I rode her horse.

I don’t want to offend anyone or mis-step in this industry, but I am confused by this and would love to hear some feedback. Thank you!

[xQHDQ]

I don’t think your trainer is in the right but something to consider.
For both scenarios, did you say “yes” and then back track? If you said “maybe” then she’s totally in the wrong (she jumped the gun). If you said “yes” then what you did was back out of a verbal contract and she has a right to be frustrated but not say what she said.

I suggest sitting her down and having that tough talk of what you want and what she can provide. I would pay for a lesson for her time for this conversation. It’s hard to do emotionally but I think you’ll both come out the other side happier.

[tabula_rashah]

First of all I say good for you for going with your gut and doing what you feel is best on both occasions. A lot of folks would not do that
As far as the trainer, I think it might be time for a switch because it sound like your goals/ plans and hers might not necessarily meet up? And unless you are going around disparaging her or something, I hardly feel like you can be responsible for her reputation. Reading a contract and then deciding something is the not the right step is a completely normal thing to do

[BDubs]

With the giving away of my horse I said yes because she told me it was my only choice besides moving her and starting a new boarding situation. I’d say that was Sunday morning. I reluctantly agreed and before the day was up did my own hard work and found the charity. I offered to pay my trainer for her time in trying to sell my horse (this was at most 3 to 5 days before she suggested I give her away).
With the lease I said that I liked the horse and wanted to see the contract, and that came to me Saturday 7pm. Sunday before noon I said no. She may have told the owner that I wanted the horse Friday midday. If that’s the case, that owner may have felt I was a yes for 48 hrs.
And I did offer to pay the lease finders fee (10% of lease price) and for the owners time as well.

It’s interesting that you mention a verbal agreement/contract, as my trainer never really explained this to me. She never said “if I tell this person (whether that’s the woman taking my horse for free, or the woman leasing the horse) that you want to move forward, we are essentially in contract”. This is something I definitely would have understood, as I have a background in the law. It was my understanding that there were a number of steps before I was committed, one of them being that I feel like the horse was a fit, and then another being was I comfortable with the contract and the fees. I appreciate that clarification.

Regardless, I don’t want to get a bad reputation as someone who is a tire kicker. But I was very badly burned with the purchase of my first horse, I sunk a lot of money into her, and then had to mentally shift from “we’re going to sell her” to, “my Barn is closing, you need to make this decision fast, maybe you should give her away“ in under 72 hours. (Mind you it was all I could do not to say to her,” you promised me that this wouldn’t happen when we were discussing moving my horse to your barn. You said you could not lose the Barn in the divorce, and now it is happening, and it is forcing my hand to give away my horse.“) Adding to all this the admonishment that I was ruining her reputation has left me with an aching heart and super confused.

[BDubs]

Thanks, Tabula. As someone who has worked in a number of different industries, I am very aware that every one of them has its own politics, protocols, and customs. I am new to the world of horse trainers, leasing, buying, etc., and this trainer knew that I had been completely screwed by another trainer into buying the wrong horse. She even said herself that she was aware that because of that it might take me a little more time to make decisions. For her to turn 180 on me, and accuse me of compromising her reputation, when the entire transaction transpired over what was less than a 72 hour period really made my head spin and wonder if I had done something very wrong.

[RideEveryStride]

I may be misunderstanding some things, so please correct me if I am getting it wrong!

It sounds like you enlisted your trainer to help you sell the unsuitable TB, and eventually your trainer suggested giving the horse away to a local capable rider. Someone that she likely has an ongoing professional relationship with. At that point, you decided it would be better to give the horse to the local charity. While your decision to place the horse with the charity was certainly an acceptable choice, I can also see how your trainer might have felt a bit jilted by the situation. If the horse was truly dangerous like you say, your trainer was taking a reputation risk by helping you sell the horse in the first place. It sounds like she likely found a suitable home for the horse, then you back tracked and sent him on to the charity. Sending him to the charity was a fine choice, I can also definitely see why your trainer was put out by that decision since you asked for her help, she found a solution for you, then you ultimately did your own thing anyway.

While I completely understand not wanting to jump into a lease (or horse ownership!) due to financial constraints, you really should have crunched the numbers on the lease before you tried the lease horse. I can certainly see how your trainer thought you were ready to move forward on the lease in a reasonable timeframe if the horse ended up being a good match, which it sounds like the horse was. She has a right to be frustrated, and concerned for her reputation. It sounds like your trainer reached out to someone she has an ongoing professional relationship with, set up a trial ride for you that went really well, then you backed out of moving forward with the lease. It is always the right choice to make a decision that is going to work best for your finances, but you definitely put your trainer in a bad spot by not crunching the numbers first.

I also interpret the “take your time” statement to mean that you did not need to make a decision right then and there. However, I think expecting you to make a move by Saturday evening was totally reasonable. If someone had a great trial ride on a horse I was trying to lease out or sell on Thursday and let me know they are interested in moving forward on Friday, it would be a completely logical next step to get paperwork signed by Saturday evening.

Your plan to focus on lessons and take your time before moving into a lease or horse ownership sounds like a great idea! There are tons of variables to consider with leasing and horse ownership, and we each have different financial limitations. It sounds like you need to crunch the numbers on what you can afford, and think about what situations/types of horses would be comfortable for you before thinking about leasing or purchasing again. That way your trainer can help guide you most appropriately, and everyone is on the same page from the start!

[RideEveryStride]

Also echoing what some others have said- If you backed out of the lease due to something that was written in the contract that you were not comfortable with, that is completely different and acceptable. From what you have written it sounds like you did not move forward with the lease due to financial constraints. However, finding something in a purchase/lease contract that is outside your comfort zone is certainly a fair reason to not move forward in the transaction.

[trubandloki]

Is this the same trainer that found you the first horse that you had to give away? Or was this trainer just dealing with a horse that came into their program and was later determined to not be suitable?

To me, this trainer is not a good fit for you (or me). I could not work with a trainer who turns everything into a rush decision. Big decisions take some time to figure out.

I do not see how a person can figure out how much a lease will cost ahead of time. I suppose the base board and such is able to be calculated but the actual cost of the lease can be quite variable and it is not unusual for a person to determine that what they thought was doable was not doable when all the new expenses are added on.

[2DogsFarm]

@tabula_rashah

unless you are going around disparaging her or something, I hardly feel like you can be responsible for her reputation.

THIS X1,000,000
Time for a different trainer.

I paid my dues with a Pro who I rode with as she was just starting her business.
Helped her get clients’ horse’s shipped to shows, taking time off work to do so.
Showed horses I shareboarded with her listed as Trainer on entries (horses not leased through her).
Bought my 1st horse through her & showed him as a Hunter to a Reserve EOY our 1st season. With all riding done by me.
Including the unacknowledged “Pro” divisions: PreGreen, Low & later (& not with her as trainer) 2nd Year Green.
Boarded him at her first barn as BO/Pro.
All of the above contributing to her reputation.
I was repaid with .
DH shareboarded a client’s horse at that barn.
He did a LOT of work at reduced prices for her.
Installed a phone system, alarm system, PA system for shows…
We were told in return she’d cover his show fees.
1st show he went to, when we went to settle with the office, no such arrangement had been made. She denied making the promise.
When I failed to show as frequently as other clients on her “Show Team”, she moved my horse from the elite 12-stall barn to the general population. A snub I failed to be humbled by

Final straw was the at-home regional show where I had to work Saturday, so could only show Sunday.
I entered Training Jumpers as a warm up for Medals as the courses were similar.
She told me I would “ruin your horse”
I told her I wasn’t going for time.
Placed 2nd in Medals.
DH had won his Low class Saturday
We moved my horse shortly after, DH found a new horse to shareboard.

I learned Pros can be friends, but can also be snakes posing as friends.
That was nearly 40yrs ago.
My current Dressage trainer is a casual friend.
She respects my goals, I respect her knowledge.

[BDubs]

Thanks so much for sharing your perspective! As for the giving away of my horse, no, she was not giving my horse to a more suitable rider. She was giving my horse to a woman who owns a barn that buys and sells thoroughbreds, who was going to take my horse (who needed a more advanced rider And someone who could deal with her idiosyncrasies) and get her more collected and then turn around and sell her for a profit. This was not an individual rider who had ridden my horse and was looking forward to it. This was a dealer who was looking to do a “flip” if you will. My trainer had no relationship with the woman who owned this barn. It was her first interaction with her.

As for the numbers, I definitely had an epiphany as I was crunching numbers Sunday morning, that not only was leasing this horse going to cost me about 15 K more per year than what I had previously spent when I owned my horse, but also that because my son could not ride this horse at all, I was going to have to pay completely separately for his lessons. So I honestly did not realize until Sunday morning that I was looking at what was in the neighborhood of $1500 a month increase in expenses. For me, that is pretty substantial. it was my trainers suggestion that I look for a horse more suited to my skill level than my son’s, when, at the outset, I have always wanted to lease or purchase a horse that would be suitable for both of us to ride. It is true, I did not track how much my expenses were going to go up until Sunday morning when I reviewed the lease and sharpened my pencil. I also think the fact that both she and the owner of the leased horse were at a show over the weekend made it difficult to have prolonged conversations, and also Drove her to rush me, because she wanted to bring the horse home with her on Sunday, the very same day that I was reviewing the lease. With everything I have gone through, it all just moved way too fast, and now I fear I have burned some bridges

[trubandloki]

@BDubs

now I fear I have burned some bridges

If this burned bridges, they were bridges that were not worth having to start with.

[BDubs]

No, I arrived at her barn with my horse, who had seemed really great in the first few months, and then started to develop issues the more we worked with her. Bucking in the transitions, and being generally unsafe. I worked with her to try to find out what was going on and even spent $1500 on injections for a kissing spine that was discovered. Then just two weeks later she told me she did not think things were going to get better and we should try to sell her. She tried to market her for less than a week before telling mw that she found someone that she could give her away to (the horse flipper). I was super sad, but accepting of this, and because I had also been posting trying to find a buyer, someone reached out to me and told me about this charity that would take her, find a suitable rider for her, and use the proceeds to support retired thoroughbreds. And that she could retire to that farm at the end of her life. It seemed like so much of a better choice, but my trainer told me that I was compromising her reputation because on Saturday, she told the horse flipper she could have my horse for free, and then, on Sunday she had to turn around and say no. This woman had not arranged shipping, nothing was in motion. They had no pre existing relationship.

As for the lease, my trainer had another horse of her own in lease with this woman, so they were friends. Or at least professional colleagues. I rode the horse Thursday, said that I liked him Friday and wanted to see the lease, got the lease Saturday night, and backed out Sunday morning. And for the second time, my trainer said I was compromising her reputation.

All of this is made me feel super bad about myself, like people feel like I am using them.

[2DogsFarm]

@BDubs

at the outset, I have always wanted to lease or purchase a horse that would be suitable for both of us to ride.

DingDingDing!

When I bought my horse from trainer I told her I wanted one both I & then-novice DH could ride & show.
She agreed, but:
1-Horse was at her barn for sale through a racetrack trainer. I asked to try him after watching him in turnout, not U/S.
2-Her M.O. was for clients to buy a Move Up horse as soon as possible.
Reason: more commi$$ion for her
I not only chewed down her commission on the sale (by sticking to my budget & knowing she got 15% of price), but failed to agree to sell the next year.
Even when she told me she’d been offered 3X what I paid by another Pro.
The following year that got upped to 10X (from local BNT). I said NTY.
That was when horse was downgraded from the Show Barn

I fail to see anywhere you’ve acted to harm this Pro.
OTOH…

[mmeqcenter]

Sounds like trainer is ruining their own reputation by making promises to other trainers they can’t keep. Likely, your trainer arranged some kind of kick-back in both situations and got pissed they missed out on some money when both fell through.
Even if not - definitely time to find a new trainer.

[Night_Flight]

I suspect your trainer is experiencing stress from their divorce/personal life that they’re taking out on you.

[fivestrideline]

I think it’s time for a new trainer.

From what I can tell, your goals and desires do not match with this trainer’s, you are being ignored in those goals and desires, and you’re being rushed into things without full disclosure or education. If the trainer is promising things to other people without a FIRM DEFINITE “Yes, I want to do XYZ with horse A” from you, that’s on them.

Asking to see the contract before deciding, crunching numbers and then saying “sorry this isn’t for me” is 100% acceptable - and a savvy trainer would LEAD with $ numbers.

I think you’re being taken for a ride, and trainer is hoping for lease commissions from you and maybe your son too, plus all the training and lessons for BOTH of you. It sounds like you’ve been remarkably understanding and smart about all this. You need a new pro.

[MunchingonHay]

@mmeqcenter

Sounds like trainer is ruining their own reputation by making promises to other trainers they can’t keep. Likely, your trainer arranged some kind of kick-back in both situations and got pissed they missed out on some money when both fell through.
Even if not - definitely time to find a new trainer.

I bolded money. This.

It has nothing to do with you not moving forward with your trainers suggestions either the TB or the lease horse or her reputation being drug through the mud by you.

This has to do with the trainer’s wallet.

I would be more worried about you making quick decisions that are not right for you and your son’s riding capablities and then regretting them than taking a moment to read (the lease) and realize what is important for you and your son when decisions are made.

I agree that the only person jumping the gun is the trainer. She is scrambling due to the move, her divorce, and her money walking away from her. So should you (walk away from her).

[BDubs]

Thanks, honestly it is really heartbreaking and unsettling, how hard it is to find someone who you can completely trust in this environment.

In order to ensure her that it was not about money, I offered to pay the finders fee for the lease whether I moved forward or not. That would’ve been around $900, for what could not have been more than two weeks worth of text messages and phone conversations as this was the first and only horse I rode. I also was going to pay the woman who was leasing the horse for two lessons, because I rode the horse two times to try to see if he was a fit.

She declined to take the finders fee, which I thought was generous, but unnecessary, and then turned around and told me I was risking her reputation. WTF? I am trying really hard here to be a good person, and respectful of everyone’s needs, and am being made to feel like I am not allowed to change my mind.

[RideEveryStride]

That all makes sense! I definitely understand not wanting to send your horse on to a dealer. I do think all the decisions you have made have ultimately been the right choices, I just wanted to add a bit of color on why your trainer might be acting/feeling weird.

The added context that you offered to pay your trainer for her time in both deals and both times she declined, but then complained about the choices you made definitely leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I also agree that your trainer definitely had a responsibility to get with you on budget and cost expectations before you tried the lease horse. If she did not do that, then the fault is definitely more than partly hers.

Other than these two situations, do you and your son otherwise enjoy your lessons with this trainer?

[NaturallyHappy]

To me, it sounds like you’ve been very fair and have opted to compensate for time. I’d probably consider a new trainer as others have recommended. If you don’t want to do that, I’d answer everything with “let me think about it” if it’s not immediately a “no” going forward. It took me years to learn to do that; it’s a great skill😀.