Understanding trainer relationship and protocols

[Scribbler]

@BDubs

Hello all!

Can someone please share a little insight with me around the trainer/client relationship?

I don’t want to draw things out too much, but on two separate occasions, my trainer has said, in response to a decision I have made, that “this is the hit I did not want to take to my reputation.“.

The first time was when we put my dangerous thoroughbred on the market to sell (the first time I owned a horse, I received very bad advice and ended up with the wrong horse). We put her on the market on Tuesday, and on Wednesday, her barn got shut down (she was in the middle of a divorce and her husband owned the barn and kicked her out. I did ask her if this was a possibility before I brought my horse there to board and she assured me that it was not, but it happened anyway). so the next day, she told me she was really having a hard time moving my horse and could I drop the price. I agreed. She got back to me later that day, and said she thought that unless I wanted to move my horse to another barn and start a new boarding contract elsewhere , (mind you this is a horse that, as a beginner, was not safe for me to ride) that I was probably going to have to give her away and she had found someone to give her to who was going to train her, collect her, and sell her. I did some quick research and found a wonderful charity for off the track thoroughbreds that would also take her for free, but guarantee her a place to retire for life. I felt that was the better decision, and when I told her I wanted to explore that she said “then I’m going to get out of the way and let you handle this yourself. I already told that other Barn owner that you would be OK to give the horse to her, and now I’m going to take a hit to my reputation.“ So there was less than a 24 hour period between the time she told this woman she could have the horse for free, and when I canceled. I called the woman myself and told her what I was thinking about, and she was completely cool, not at all upset, and that was the end of it. I felt terrible that I might have compromised my trainer in some way, but it was honestly hard for me to see how that put her in a bad position.

So now I am trying again and want to lease a horse because of this bad experience I had with purchasing. I ride a horse (the first horse I tried in this leasing process. I have not ridden five or six horses, this was the very first one, and owned by a woman that my trainer was leasing one of her horses too, so it was a very arm’s-length, friendly relationship) on Thursday and it goes well, on Friday we discussed moving forward. On Saturday night they sent me the contract (which my trainer told me was a cut and paste of the contract that they used when she leased her horse to the woman who owned the horse I was considering leasing, so it was not like there was time drafting a new contract) and I start tallying up the expenses along with the training packages etc. and I come back and tell her that I think it would be smarter for me to invest my money in lessons, riding a lot of different kinds of horses, instead of committing to just one, and waiting a bit to go into a lease or a purchase. Once again she says “this is the hit I did not want to take to my reputation.“

So my question to you is, am I doing something wrong here? When I rode the horse Thursday And it went well, she said “sleep on it. Take your time.” Everybody was going to a show over the weekend, so there was no option to speak to her about my concerns, just text back-and-forth on Saturday at which time she went from “take your time“ to “you need to decide because I can pick the horse up here at the show and bring it back on Sunday and I need to arrange a stall, the Farrier, etc. etc.“.

So it went from take your time on Thursday night to hurry up on Saturday, so on Sunday when I crunched the numbers and I was feeling incredibly rushed and having nothing but text conversations with my trainer, I told her I thought it would be better not to move forward and take my time, and she basically told me I was ruining her reputation. (Because she had to cancel with the woman who owned the horse, the barn, where I would be boarding, the dentist, and the Farrier.) She said I should have known what this would cost. Keep in mind, because her Barn closed down my boarding fees were going up $300 a month and my training fees were going up $350 a month. My son also rides and when we owned a horse he was riding her with me under the same training package. With this horse that I would be leasing, he would have to take lessons completely separately, so that’s another $500 a month and lessons for him. So I was looking at a monthly increase of, almost $1200 over the course of a year to lease a horse that my trainer told me would not be a horse I should purchase, but just learn for a year.

Honestly, this statement about ruining her reputation felt like a guilt trip, especially where this was now the second occasion where I felt like I was being rushed through a life-changing decision. I want to be respectful of everyone involved. I offered to pay her fee of 10% of the lease price, even though I was not planning to move forward, and I also offered to pay the woman whose horse I was considering for the time I rode her horse.

I don’t want to offend anyone or mis-step in this industry, but I am confused by this and would love to hear some feedback. Thank you!

I think you need a new trainer.

This poor trainer is being destroyed by her divorce proceedings and her husbands lawyers. She has all the pieces of her livelihood flying out from under her. She is no doubt frantic that her professional profile is toast already because she just lost the sweet deal on a nice farm to run things at. She has likely been going frantic trying to rehome or lease out her own horses and clients.

Getting evicted from your barn can be a career ending moment for a trainer, especially if they had a sweet deal on a nice place and the local rental market is tight. She may never get that back. She essentially owned her own place (via marriage) and then lost it. She will never own her own place again. Unless she gets an insane divorce settlement.

Under stress she is lashing out at you. It’s possible you come across to her as a wifty indecisive newbie. It’s also possible you have been a reliable cash cow for her especially with your sons riding, and under stress she hopes you will continue being Momma ATM.

Both possibilities mean the relationship is damaged and best to move on. You don’t need to be the scapegoat for her life collapsing.

Not sure where son is in all.this. I guess he needs to stay if she has a good children’s program.

Edited to add: ok, I read further and see he isn’t in lessons anymore. You can both move on.

[Alterrain]

This is what happens when a Pro gets a customer to “give” a horse away:

They send the horse to a flipper. They (Pro and the flipper) now own the horse 50/50. Horse sells and they split the proceeds. If it’s junk they sell it the same day for 500 and each get a nice dinner, or maybe it’s nicer and they put a bit of time & money into it and sell for 10k. Whatever the case, the Pro makes money. And you stripped her of that opportunity.

You did the right thing by your horse. Find a new trainer.

[BDubs]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts here! I do feel like she is a good trainer, and I have grown some in a few months she has been coaching me, but my son does not find her particularly warm. I do not think she is the best trainer for a kid, and my son is pretty mature, and can navigate all kinds of personalities. He did take a lesson with a different trainer yesterday and he liked her much better, so leaving this other trainer behind is no loss to him!

On the reputation tip: Although I work in a completely different industry, I am a consultant, and I am often asked to propose an engagement or estimate a project, and I spend time doing that in order to support a client or win new business. In the process, I may contact other professionals who will collaborate with me on a project to check their availability and what it might cost to engage them, and they may spend time estimating as well only to be told down the line that the client decided not to go forward and that’s the end of the discussion. I would never dream of going back to the prospective client and say that they have compromised my reputation with that other professional because I told them we might be winning some business and then had to come back and say it didn’t work out. And in those cases I never get paid a dime for my efforts. But I was offering to pay this woman $900 for finding me this one opportunity to consider a horse for lease, and she turned it down, but then she said that my decision would hurt her reputation. It really left me scratching my head and feeling guilty.
I’m really glad I posted here and I appreciate the input from everyone as I am learning to make my way in this equestrian world. Thanks to you!

[BDubs]

Thanks! Yes, I’m trying to be sensitive to all of that because I too have been divorced and know what an S – show that can be. I knew through the rumor mill that she was going through that divorce when I called to see if she had room at her barn, and I explicitly asked her if she was going to lose the barn to her ex-husband and she said no. And then two months later she did. So I moved my already highstrung thoroughbred to her barn, paid her a few months board, used her Vet and discovered the kissing spines, and dumped a ton of money into that, gave my horse away, cried a lot about it, because I loved her, and then, a month later we are facing this leasing debacle and “reputation“ issue yet again.

I think you are right; I am getting a lot of blowback from something that has nothing to do with me, but it’s probably best to steer clear and find another Barn/trainer/leasing opportunity.

I did buy her a little gift when I was away over the Thanksgiving holiday and intend to stop by the barn this week and give it to her regardless, and wish her well.

[BDubs]

Ha! It is so true. it is very hard to put your foot down when someone is pressing you to make a quick decision on something that is really important, and she definitely wanted me to make a 50K decision between Friday and Sunday. For context, when I first purchased my thoroughbred, I was at a different barn that had a different program And was spending under 25K a year. With this lease I was forced to move to a much fancier barn which required $200 a month more in board, the training package prices had gone up $350 a month, and the horse itself, which she suggested I might be able to lease for 8K ended up being 10.5 K. so all of these little things added up, and when I sat down Sunday morning to look at it, I realized it was not the right decision for us. And I guess in her mind, I should’ve known that is how much it would cost. I did know it was going to be more than what I had paid with my previous horse, but I was not prepared for that number to double. I do want to purchase one day and dumping 50K into a horse that she told me I should only consider to lease and not to buy did not seem to make sense. A horse that I might want to lease to purchase I think would be smarter to spend money like that on, but that was not the horse she was presenting me with.

[BDubs]

Wow! Thank you for that peek behind the curtain. For context, I will tell you that the first three months I owned that thoroughbred she was awesome. I rode her five or six days a week, and my son took lessons on her, and after two months of ownership, we took her to our very first show. A low level, rinky dink one, but our first show nonetheless . My son took fourth in the cross rails, and third in the prix out of a group of about 16 riders, and I took third in the cross rails and fourth in the prix. We were on cloud nine that we had found this great equine partner, and then over the ensuing months, her behavior changed, she started bucking in the transitions, she became very unpredictable and a little bit scary. We tried everything to figure her out, I spent a ton of money on hock and spine injections to no avail. I had just spent 1500 on spine injections, when, about three or four weeks later, my trainer said she just didn’t think she was the right horse for us and the injections were not going to make a difference and I should sell her. So the person getting the horse for free was getting a talented mare that had the very best in veterinary care and injection maintenance for absolutely nothing. If I had my way, and my trainer had not been kicked out of her barn, I probably would have kept the horse and ridden her for another month with tremendous patience, just doing flat work and rewarding her every day when she gave me a ride without attitude. But I was robbed of that opportunity because the barn shut down, and I had to make a decision: Give her away, or move her, unsettle her, and have to wait for her to calm down again, and move myself to a new barn that was really far from the house, or move to an incredibly expensive barn that was closer. At that point, I didn’t think it was smart to put good money after bad so I decided I should let her go, and this giveaway to the flipper was the only option my trainer offered. I found the charity on my own, and that kind of pissed her off.

[Scribbler]

@BDubs

Thanks! Yes, I’m trying to be sensitive to all of that because I too have been divorced and know what an S – show that can be. I knew through the rumor mill that she was going through that divorce when I called to see if she had room at her barn, and I explicitly asked her if she was going to lose the barn to her ex-husband and she said no. And then two months later she did. So I moved my already highstrung thoroughbred to her barn, paid her a few months board, used her Vet and discovered the kissing spines, and dumped a ton of money into that, gave my horse away, cried a lot about it, because I loved her, and then, a month later we are facing this leasing debacle and “reputation“ issue yet again.

I think you are right; I am getting a lot of blowback from something that has nothing to do with me, but it’s probably best to steer clear and find another Barn/trainer/leasing opportunity.

I did buy her a little gift when I was away over the Thanksgiving holiday and intend to stop by the barn this week and give it to her regardless, and wish her well.

We’ve had other chats on COTH where people have been boarding in situations where the trainer is going through a divorce and losing the jointly owned farm is a real possibility. Even a likelihood. But of course the trainer is discounting the possibility, either through wishful thinking or wanting to keep customers to the last minute. And acting increasingly stressed of course.

Our advice is always to move out now, avoid the mad dash when 25 boarders are on the market at once.

Similar if you think property is up for sale etc.

[Willesdon]

One of the really, really weird things about horses is that normal business practices, sensible everyday behaviours and common sense vanish as soon as the very word “horse” comes into play. Highly educated, capable, mature people with great life skills, well-paid jobs and the effortless ability to run multiple kids simultaneously nonetheless melt into jelly at a single glance from a horse trainer. Odd. Very odd.

In any horse/trainer/barn situation, run it through your mind and replace “horse” with words like “dentist” or “car” or “clothes shopping” or “bank” and see if it then makes any sense what so ever. If your dentist said you were ruining their professional reputation would you even care? Are you best friends with the mechanic who looks after your vehicle and changes the oil? Do you exchange holiday gifts with the person who sold you that charming dress? Would you enter into any financial obligations with the bank without a written contract?

Horses are supposed to be your fun, your together time with your child, your relaxation. The trainer is supposed to be the business person who provides the hassle-free services that you pay them for. If anything else develops, take care. Be ready to walk away.

[findeight]

OP, please remember most professionals in other fields are specifically educated, pass tests to be certified/ licensed plus go through supervised on the job training or some version of an apprenticeship before they can operate as a Pro in their field.

Anybody can call themselves a Horse Trainer or Coach. Anybody can charge to teach lessons. Anybody can sell you a horse and/ or charge you a commission to buy or sell you one. ANYBODY.

There is no “ code of ethics” and no fiduciary relationship.

This trips up many educated professionals from other fields who assume the professional relationship with their trainer is like relationships with professionals in other fields.

Based on what you have shared, would recommend seeking another trainer. Visit a few other barns, watch other trainers teach, bring your boy to watch too. IME, trainers like your current one, going through major life changes put clients smack in the middle of their personal, often emotional drama. Not to mention the whole barn possibly being sold and drastic changes in barn management, most a surprise. It gets ugly.

Don’t stay here or with this trainer. You don’t have a horse, your son doesn’t like her and shes dumped on you-the reputation remark was out there as was her reaction to your objection to additional, undiscussed expenses on the lease Go.

Nothing here is going to get any better, make a clean break.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@BDubs

. I worked with her to try to find out what was going on and even spent $1500 on injections for a kissing spine that was discovered. Then just two weeks later she told me she did not think things were going to get better and we should try to sell her. She tried to market her for less than a week before telling mw that she found someone that she could give her away to (the horse flipper). I was super sad, but accepting of this, and because I had also been posting trying to find a buyer, someone reached out to me and told me about this charity that would take her, find a suitable rider for her, and use the proceeds to support retired thoroughbreds. And that she could retire to that farm at the end of her life

Not trying to start drama here myself, but it sounds like she has an interest–perhaps even an undisclosed financial one–in this horse going to her friend the “flipper.” Also, if the horse has soundness issues, a low-key situation followed by a good retirement home is certainly a better option than being ridden and resold by someone who won’t take the horse back after it’s no longer rideable. Horses with kissing spine with with issues, with a history of an owner who has already tried multiple things to make the horse “work” are usually not ethically marketable anyway. (I’m not saying there isn’t a market for riding horses who are marginally serviceably sound, but this does not sound like the situation your former horse was being sent into with the flipper.)

With the lease, would your trainer have been getting a finder’s fee or commission on the lease? Either way, she likely has a financial incentive for you to lease, since a rider with a horse usually needs more training rides/support than someone just taking lesson, resulting in more income for the trainer.

This isn’t saying it’s bad for a trainer to want to make money, but it sounds like she’s making you feel guilty and trying to push you into decisions you’re not 100% sold on.

[BDubs]

WISDOM!! Thanks.

[BDubs]

Well said and valuable insight, Willesdon. Thx!

[BDubs]

Yes, of course she was going to get a 10% finders fee on the lease. And now the plot thickens: when I asked her last week if they were any other horses to look at to lease because I recalled she had mentioned other options, she told me that the trainer she spoke to misunderstood and that other horse was not big enough for me.

Jump cut, I am taking some lessons with that other trainer, and she knows (because the community is small) that I walked away from leasing that other horse. I asked her if she had anything to lease and she said yes, that she had two horses coming up for half lease in January. Turns out, one of them is that horse that is “too small”. I am going to be riding that horse this week, and she is 14.2. I am just 5 foot three and 125 pounds and this new trainer says that the horse would not be too small for me. And guess what? All in, it looks like that horse is going to cost me 17K a year less than the horse I just walked away from, and I will get to ride four days a week.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

UGHHHHHHH

I’m so sorry you invested so much into a relationship with this trainer who did not have your interests at heart. It’s always so violating to learn about this sort of thing.

And actually, it sounds like the smaller horse is an ideal size. Too many tiny people are over-horsed as it is on massive mounts.

[Janet]

@mmeqcenter

Sounds like trainer is ruining their own reputation by making promises to other trainers they can’t keep.

This

[BDubs]

I am actually really interested to see how it feels to ride a smaller horse. I feel like, where I am as I am learning aids, communicating through contact, etc. it might be a bit easier to “feel my way around her”, as it were.

By comparison, I once rode a massive Percheron, and I felt like a tiny pilot fish clinging to a whale.

Also, as I am learning to take bigger jumps, it’s less far to fall.

[jvanrens]

I’ve never found it to be the size of the horse that matters my most painful falls have been off shorter equines. My safest ride was 17hh. A good horse and trainer is what is important.

[NaturallyHappy]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

Not trying to start drama here myself, but it sounds like she has an interest–perhaps even an undisclosed financial one–in this horse going to her friend the “flipper.”

This was exactly my thought, as well. “I’ll get her to give you the horse, you ride it, and we will sell it and split the profit”.

[BDubs]

GOD I hope that’s not true. I’m starting to think finding a trustworthy trainer is like finding a good mechanic. Few and far between.

[Scribbler]

@BDubs

GOD I hope that’s not true. I’m starting to think finding a trustworthy trainer is like finding a good mechanic. Few and far between.

Well before there were automobiles, a “horse trader” had the same reputation as a “used car salesman”!