Understanding trainer relationship and protocols

First: Thank you on behalf of your first ‘unsuitable’ horse for putting his best welfare before all else. You were his advocate and champion. One horse is better off, because you cared enough to stand up to a manipulative trainer.

Glad that it reads as if you have already gotten some perspective and are seeing this situation more realistically. You are breaking away from the toxic reality of the trainer.

My impression – You have stepped into the middle of a bad situation in someone else’s life, things that have nothing to do with you directly, but are impacting you – the divorce and the impact on her business. And she may be a little sketch anyway – or else she feels more anxious that usual about money.

She’s over-busy and over-stressed and that’s understandable. She’s also manipulative, on top of being distracted. She’s not saying ‘this is not a good time for a new client’ because she’s probably reluctant to admit that to herself. But it’s not. Her life and her problems are not the place for you or any other newcomer to her program, for the time being.

IMO, stop trying to make it up to her, stop with the peace offerings, just let it peace out. That’s easier for her than having you rise up into view yet again, which is a reminder to herself of all the mistakes she is making. (Not your fault!!! But that is how she’s reacting). She isn’t dealing well with her situation, is she – so let her be – for a few years. :wink:

She seems to be more than a little rude and vindictive about things that are her own doing. She is just not a nice person. Maybe she’ll be more grounded when her present misfortunes are in the rearview mirror – and that could take a long time.

Find a more sensible, caring trainer with a program that takes a true interest in you instead of treating you like just the person who writes checks.

What has been going on for you in the last few weeks with this trainer is upsetting, and you are worried at how big it could loom over the future. But very probably in a couple of weeks the other parties won’t even remember these minor incidents. They are not as big a deal to them as the trainer is making them seem. Going forward, more life events that are far more important will happen for everyone, and most memories will fade. Those that don’t, you can avoid. That’s the horse world.

The horse world can have some abrupt stops and sharp edges, sometimes. People in it need to be resilient and heal well. And keep moving forward. Many have been in your shoes and survived. You will, too. :slight_smile: (Maybe kind of like law?)

Red flag. Sometimes cuts & paste contracts work out ok, but sometimes they just don’t. Every situation is different.

Because of manipulative manipulator. See all of the comments about the trainer’s wallet.

Rushing people into decisions is another red flag, as is disparaging them when they try to think for themselves. You obviously know this and know the way she’s behaving is not ok. Good for you to pull up and look around and ask questions.

In or out of the horse industry, your instincts are true for you and worth following. Be your sensible self. Don’t let anyone manipulate you otherwise. Sounds like you are doing well so far! :slight_smile:

True, true, true.

I don’t know if horse people are the most impractical, unrealistic, wishful and fantasist about business or even business-type decisions. But they must be in the top 5%, at least.

This (derail!) thing about refusing to use sales contracts, be transparent about commissions and cuts, and acting offended if a party wants a contract and transparency, is insane and should not be tolerated. But – it is, and by some clients who have the background to know better.

Ironically, for those few (?) trainers that are good with business decisions and money, they can do amazingly well in a business that is supposed to be a dead loser for everyone.

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Or maybe the mare had KS or something else causing her to be in pain, that wasn’t curable? Horses don’t cop an attitude for no real reason - if I had to guess, she was in pain. And it’s possible that a horse in pain might injure you - she’d already been telling you something was wrong.

Your trainer may or may not be in the wrong here, but she also might just possibly be right about the mare’s possibly incurable issues. What did the vet say? Horses with unresolved pain-related bucking issues are Very Hard To Sell, by the way.

You listed three choices, and you didn’t want to wait for the mare to settle into a new home, drive further or pay more. So, you could have sold her yourself, or moved her to a sales barn. or had a second opinion on her health if a new trainer told you she wasn’t rideable.

The trainer put pressure and limited options at your feet - definitely seems like someone to step back from and give yourself space to think about.

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That response was sentient poetry worthy of a mic drop. Big thanks for the wisdom.

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Wow that is like the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me! And so beautifully phrased! Thank you!
:smiling_face_with_three_hearts: :smile:

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Lesson 1 of the horse business. It’s nothing like any other business. I’m not saying it’s right, but it is what it is.

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@BDubs Look at the lease pony. 5ft 3 and 125lbs sounds perfect for around a 14.2. What matters is how they take up the leg i.e. how your legs wraps around their barrel. In most of the world 15.2 is the average size of working horses, ridden by adults to work cattle, drive sheep, trek on riding vacations etc. It is only in the show ring that size is prioritized.

I’m 5’9 and weigh far more than you. I frequently ride Welsh section C ponies who are a maximum of 13.2 hh but appear much larger due to their personality and zip. And Never Ever tell them they are not as big as other people because they won’t believe you. Lovely horses.

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of course a 14.2 Horse would work well for you, my daughter is 5 foot ten and her dressage horse is 14.1 (It is consider a Horse as its a Morgan and all Morgans are considered horses by the association), They make a nice paring having won multiple dressage classes, a national and a world championships. A scribe’s note on one of the recent tests to help them denote the riders was “teenager in white”… daughter is 38 yeas old… she accepted that comment as the real win of the competition,

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Thinking about this very common boarding/training challenge, going to be blunt here generalize a bit based on my decades of personal experience and observations.

Many trainers depend on income sources outside of their training business to support themselves financially. Search on here and learn how difficult it is to break even with a horse business let alone live off of one. Most long time successful trainers have spousal support, family/parental financial support and/or developed boarding/training property backing up their business. Some have investors, clients or partners contributing to operating costs.

When any of a number of upheavals strike and the additional income vanishes? The business will eventually implode trying to keep up business as usual without income as usual. They cannot afford to maintain the standard of care for their clients and, usually, have to downsize both business and their personal living expenses. Matter of time.

Be it divorce, losing the barn facilities due to property owners death, illness, bankruptcy, suffocating property taxes and development? Boarders get caught up as the business circles the bowl.

Clients have a choice, go down with it or go elsewhere. Trust me, it can get really ugly for you and your horse(s) on the way down…as I said, once it starts it never gets better.

Oh, almost forgot trainers and BO/BMs trying run a failing business often turn to self medication and substance abuse which, IME, explains some of the mood swings and odd remarks. Fun.

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Another thought – Just because the horse business is “different” does not mean that anyone has to conform to the craziness. You can and should set your own standards for how you spend your money, and how you work with people.

That may mean that you are unable to work with the more corrupt people in the business. That’s OK! :smirk: Create that organic filter for yourself.

There are good and reasonable people in the business. And by standing your ground you can help yourself find a less complicated transaction, no matter which people you are working with.

Stand your ground with a pleasant attitude and an eye on everyone’s best interests. And the horse’s best interests as well. You’ll be much happier with the experience, even if you may have to search around a bit to find that happy spot, whatever it is you are transacting.

When you see a more dramatic overall situation, it’s better to steer clear. There is no controlling all of the random factors. And how things will turn out.

From the time I was first aware of some of the behind-the-scenes of horses, I thought that there are two kinds of people involved. The best people in the world, and the worst. It’s a fair choice to stick with the best.
:slightly_smiling_face:

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Sometimes I think the insanity is the addictive quality of horses. I have to say, as someone who did both CrossFit and studio yoga, I saw some of the same manipulative and dishonest dealings with various “coaches” and teachers who had a big following, and people doing INSANE things I couldn’t believe to help the coach’s flailing business to stay afloat. Exercise is also addictive.

The difference with horses though, is you can, as an adult not gunning for the Olympics in other sports, just walk away. And it’s so satisfying! But if you have a horse, it can be much harder. Plus, part of the manipulation is often “you aren’t doing right by your own horse.” And, honestly, even shitty trainers often have at least more basic horse knowledge than lots of first-time owners, or timid amateurs, so that gives them extra psychological leverage. Usually one thing bad trainers hate the most is when they have an actually knowledgeable horse person start boarding because the facility is convenient or cheap.

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Sports coaching generally is a magnet for some very manipulative people who may or may not be good at what they do. Add a layer of horses, horse care, the facilities and management necessary to do what we do – it can become complicated.

It is also much harder to manipulate someone who actually rides well and understands their own skill level.

Never be surprised if a trainer seems to be actually negative towards a good student. Does not provide them with much verbal support, tends to diminish what they are doing.

If you don’t think your trainer is fair with you, you might be right. You might get some outside input to validate that feeling. But trust your instincts and be willing to take an objective view of trainer feedback.

Don’t just default that a trainer is always right in every situation. No one is. Keep control of your own opinion and your own approach to the world.

And bring your questions to COTH … :grin: … honestly COTH is a great education. :+1:

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Right, COTH is a place where you learn things you didn’t even know you didn’t know. :star_struck:

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Wow, mind blown. And it all makes 100% sense. It is incredibly sad, considering their stock in trade are creatures that are sentient and bring so much joy and selflessness to humans.

If ever there were an industry that is right for disruption. It seems like this is one.

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I’m amazed at the insight and support. And incredibly grateful! So glad I brought my concerns here.

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This is a great resource. Be aware that we do not agree on many things, some posters can come off a bit negative and we have some pretty spirited…discussions. Knowledge is not always sugar coated but its still worth listening to and filing away in your head for future reference. Never take anything personally, most mean well.

That said, almost all the advice on here is you need a different trainer. We generally don’t agree on much so you need to consider that in deciding what to do.

Remember we are not speaking from a position of superiority. We speak from experience to help others from making the same dam mistakes we did. We missed the signs, made excuses and blamed ourselves. Don’t do it.

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I feel like horses are one of the few expensive sports that recieved no municipal or nonprofit support and function entirely in the small business private sector. All the other capital intensive sports like golf, skiing, swimming, skating, basketball, even skateboarding, get facilities built that make the sport accessible. Where I live community rec centers even imported the concept of yoga and fitness classes before there were private studios.

But horses is entirely in the small business self employed world and being squeezed out.

My self board barn is a nonprofit club in a city park. I don’t know of any other places like it in my city or indeed country

I understand Germany puts recreation money into horse centers.

If we didn’t have municipal pools, golf courses, and skating rinks we would be back in country club days when only the elite exercised ( indeed parts of the USA are still like this).

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I know, this tactic reminds me of our local tack shop (which I avoid now for reasons that will become obvious). As soon as you walk in, a salesperson intercepts you and helps you find whatever it is you are looking for. They whisk it away behind the register, ring it up, and swipe your credit card—all without disclosing the price. You’d have to deliberately stop them and say, “Um, excuse me, how much is that brush/bit/saddle pad?” And for some reason, based on their whole approach and the cadence of the transaction, it feels like it would seem cheap to do that. Besides, I was just dropping in to buy shampoo, and so I thought, “how much could shampoo cost anyway?” I’ll tell you how much. $75!!! For one bottle of shampoo!! Didn’t even realize it until I got home and saw the email receipt. I would have chalked it up to one weird interaction except that I recalled the same thing happening the year before when I dropped in to buy an “emergency” bottle of durasole. It’s like their whole approach is predicated on kind of pressuring you not to question the price until it’s too late, the item is already behind the register, and they’re about to swipe your card. OP’s trainer feels like she’s done that with something much bigger than a $75 shampoo purchase, and it’s just as manipulative!

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A friend recommended, when I was looking for a pair of Brook tennis shoes, try The Good Feet store, they sell them.
Entering, I wondered why a shoe store had you wait for a salesman and booth, didn’t have many shoes on display.
After a long time trying to sell me some magic insoles that didn’t fit me at all, felt like walking with a big rock on your shoe salesman brought some tennis shoes, but would never answer to how much are they?

Finally asked plainly, how much is that shoe and he wrote down on his card a total of $1789.–., I think.
I thought he made a mistake, but no, that was for the insoles that didn’t fit and one pair of shoes and was throwing in a pair of cheap wool horseshoes.

What a waste of time that was.
Scammers got to scam. :frowning_face:

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First, I agree that it’s time to move on, for a variety of reasons.

However, I’m not sure that posters are accurate when they describe the training business like any other business (doctor, lawyer, dentist). It’s not. Maybe it should be, but it’s not. The horse world is very small and very insular. As a professional in it (heck, even as an amateur in it), your reputation DOES mean everything. Opportunities happen because of your reputation. People buy horses from you based on your reputation. Even the amounts they buy them for depend on your reputation. A $3k horse in my not-fancy little boarding barn is a $50k horse in another barn. Same horse. Same capabilities. And margins are generally SO small that it really matters.

It’s also the gossipiest darned community ever. My farrier loves to come and regale me with tales about what’s happening in other barns, particularly in one barn whose owner just loves to stir up drama. Everyone is connected. Kevin Bacon has nothing on horse communities.

So, to sum up, your trainer is tremendously vulnerable given her divorce status, and she’s got to make new connections that likely don’t revolve around her current spouse. Depending on the nature of the divorce, and whether spouse is also in the horse world or not, this can be a very very dangerous time for her business, which means her ability to put food on the table.

Does NOT make her reaction right, but I can understand it.

I stumbled a lot early in my horse career because I didn’t understand how it was and I accidentally burned some bridges I didn’t mean to by just opening my mouth when I shouldn’t. So I’m sharing just because I don’t want you to go through that same thing. I’m a pretty straightforward, chatty, person and that has totally worked against me.

There are some plausible scenarios for some of the other pieces too - the “too small” comment makes no sense in dressage or for trail riding, but for hunters it totally makes sense (not having the stride to get down the line is a problem for smaller horses). It’s discipline specific.

But again - trainer shouldn’t have said those things. You’re new. You had a bad experience with the first horse. It’s a confusing time for you. Totally get that.

Good luck to you - I hope you find the perfect lease horse and a barn that you’re comfortable in. You’re not wrong for leaving, again - I hope my explanations don’t read “wrong”. I just want to help you navigate a foreign land.

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And when we all agree. It’s like the heavens parting, angels singing, rainbows shine with all of their glory while butterflies and unicorns descend from the sky to tell the OP to RUN LIKE HELL!

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