Update: Breaking to ride an older horse

[B_and_B]

So, since I hate it when people ask a question and the ‘what happened’ is never resolved. After waiting for the snow, and the ice, and the mud, and the wind…and finding a saddle that fits reasonably well, and several bit changes! The answer is that yes, it seems he will be rideable. He hasn’t blown up after three rides, not that I have asked for much yet aside from some large wobbly circles, figure eights and leisurely tour of the hay field. He has NO impulsion, so I tried carrying a dressage whip today to help reinforce leg aids that are made awkward by the whole ‘riding a barrel’ thing. That got a positive response without a negative, unlike on the ground. He has no clue what an aid for a turn is nor how to bend through his body. The good news is the brakes are still awesome, he will stand all day and halts immediately.
The uneasy feeling of being constantly tested by a dominant animal is far less of an issue, though he still wants to try, and I suspect he will at some point. He is, IMHO, totally green and not broke, but I think there is potential. Forward progress in a new job!

Am I nuts…? Background, 9 or 10 year old Shire gelding, bored stiff. We don’t have enough driving work to keep him happy. But, I could, more easily hop on him, and ride him, in terms of time/area to work in. He is green to riding, probably never ridden. He is scarily dominant on the ground unless you are able to stand your ground: i.e. this is my pile of hay, not yours, I don’t care if you weigh 2000 and I weigh 120, that game…
He is well behaved driving, if you keep on top of him or he is pulling enough weight to make him concentrate, if you don’t all hell breaks loose. He is smart, really smart, and really bored. He likes driving, he likes problem solving. I think he would like any job, and he loves people, he would come into the house if he could. But am I nuts since he is so old? He has one heck of a bronc buck…
Any one done this? If so, how should I proceed? I’ve never started an older horse…all I have read says that the older horse is Hard. Suggestions?

[CHT]

He isn’t that old, and he is already used to training/working, and used to the pressure of the girth/bit, so I am not sure why training him will be that complicated.

Just be aware, that drafts can be hard to teach to canter, particularly if he has never cantered under harness (or been disciplined for cantering).

Another thing to be aware of is that drafts tend to be quite stoic and it can be easy to overwhelm them, which is when they can start to buck or bolt. Be careful to proceed slowly, and not take their typical easy nature for granted.

[furlong47]

I’ve started retired racing Standardbreds under saddle at that age. I think it’s a little different when they already know how to drive and have been working for people in that manner, as opposed to starting an untouched or only halter broke older horse. They are already used to wearing tack and a bit, steering, voice commands, and listening to a handler. It sounds like your big challenge may be keeping him interested enough in the beginning stages so you prevent “all hell breaking loose”. I did lots of walking at first as they needed time to build their strength and balance with somebody up top instead of behind.

[B_and_B]

CHT, good to know on the canter. I’ve never, of course, asked for it on the ground. Crazily, all my other horses have been either warmbloods or OTTBs, so the canter in some form has been there. It seems to me that ‘forward’ is probably the most important thing? He has an awesome halt when driving. I’ve been keeping in mind the idea that if I control his feet, I control him.

[Bluey]

Age really should not matter, but that the horse will be suitable to ride and have a riding job and the ones training knows what they are doing.

We started several dozen feral horses, males still stallions, anywhere from 4 to 8-9 years old, may some have been older.
They were fine to start handling and under saddle, no matter the age.

We had one standardbred mare come to us that had only been a cart horse and we started riding her and went to two endurance rides with her the first one a few months after starting riding her.

Your horse sounds like he may need to be in experienced hands, if he has learned to push people around, no matter if you drive or ride him.

[joiedevie99]

IMHO, there is a big difference between a first career at 10 and a second career at 10. I think horses that make it to 6 or so without ever having to do things they don’t really want to do can be a serious training challenge. Given the choice, I would not do it again.

It sounds like your horse has had a job, and has a work ethic. Given that, I would be much less worried about his age, and more worried about getting his personality quirks under control. I know many standardbreds that start their riding careers late without issue.

[B_and_B]

He doesn’t push me, but he will push less confident people. I’m glad to know that the age isn’t a deal breaker. It seems that keeping him engaged is probably the issue. I’m in CT so miles of trails really aren’t possible, any ideas on how to keep boredom from striking? I’m thinking the good old gymkhana games might not be far off the mark for him. This is the horse that on three legs was trying to figure out a way across the stone wall (ignoring 8 acres of spring grass) because the road in the woods was interesting.

[Tyrus_Mom]

My draft cross started bolting when I was teaching him to canter under saddle because cantering was so foreign to him. I had to back off and do more canter lessons on the lunge line so he was more comfortable with where his feet went when cantering. After several months he is cantering beautifully under saddle and I no longer need to give him lunge line cantering lessons. I highly recommend this process. I wish I had done that before attempting to canter him under saddle.

My horse was used as a wagon horse before I got him and only had a few months of riding training when I got him. It took him about 3 months of riding him every day before he felt somewhat balanced with a rider on his back.

[Bluey]

@Tyrus' Mom

My draft cross started bolting when I was teaching him to canter under saddle because cantering was so foreign to him. I had to back off and do more canter lessons on the lunge line so he was more comfortable with where his feet went when cantering. After several months he is cantering beautifully under saddle and I no longer need to give him lunge line cantering lessons. I highly recommend this process. I wish I had done that before attempting to canter him under saddle.

My horse was used as a wagon horse before I got him and only had a few months of riding training when I got him. It took him about 3 months of riding him every day before he felt somewhat balanced with a rider on his back.

Right, the standardbred mare we started under saddle, the first time trying to canter her, we were in the indoor, she took three huge strides and was on the short end corner and careening around, legs going every which way, before I could try to gather her back before we crashed.
I think it even scared the instructor.
I was the test pilot, just doing what I was told.

I think we both learned that day not to just try to canter such a horse like that, to have them better balanced first.
She was one of the sweetest horses I ever worked with, absolutely lovely disposition all around and no quit to her trying to please.

[AppaloosaDressage]

I did it! But my horse didn’t have a previous job. A teenage girl bred her mare to an appy stallion, kept the colt til he was three and a half (never broke or rode him but he did learn to ride in a trailer, lead and cross tie) and sold him to an old man as a pasture pet on the condition he would never sell him. And he didn’t. The horse got fat and lived with his cows, the old man fed him cookies and had the farrier come out every so often. he was admired and given pats over the fence and that was his life. Until the old man died.
so I came upon the 13 year old unbroke horse with no human and soon to be no home (house was sold after his owner passed) and after about two weeks of caring for and getting to know him at the property, I had my trainer hold him and give me a leg up bareback. She led him a few wobbly steps and I slid down and took him home. Backing him was a non issue. Maybe just lucked out on his personality but the nervous pushy spooky appy that had to be sedated for vet and farrier work was a total puppy dog undersaddle and his ground manners improved as he learned more about what life was about. we were w/t/c in a few weeks and we’re getting ready to move up to compete second level this summer, 2 1/2 years later.
In my experience, no discernible difference between starting a good minded 2 1/2 or 3 year old. Have fun and let us know how it goes!

[pluvinel]

A bold, brave horse sounds like a fabulous leader (vs a wheeler). Ever try to do tandem? You need a really confident, forward horse that is comfortable out there in front by himself.

I know a mounted police unit that uses Shires because the are LARGE horses and good for crowd control.

If you have a bold horse with an active mind, then give him problems to solve like pushing a big ball, going thru obstacles…all the stuff police horses have to do.

Rick Pelicano gives clinics in the east coast.
http://www.rickpelicano.com/

[enjoytheride]

I have to question a horse hitched to a cart that you have to stay vigilant with before “all hell breaks loose” he does not sound safe to drive and combined with your description of him on the ground I certainly wouldn’t want to get on him. I have a friend with driving horses and they are DEAD SAFE before she even hitches them.

[Alex_and_Bodie_s_Mom]

I started one at 11 - basically a pasture pet until that time. There were never any issues with starting him that late vs. starting one younger - in fact, I think it was easier, because he didn’t spook as easily, didn’t challenge me, and took it mostly in stride.

In terms of keeping him ‘busy’ - I started a half-Arab, half-Percheron for a friend who had to be kept constantly busy (mentally, he was literally there one second, gone the next, no matter what you were doing!). We did tons of shoulder-in, half-pass, serpentines, spiraling in and out on the circle, cavaletti - anything we could think of to keep him engaged at the walk and trot while we built up his muscle enough to try canter work.

[2DogsFarm]

I have to mostly agree with @enjoytheride depending on exactly what Hell breaks loose when you’re driving.
A friend has 2 she claims to have trained to drive but after several years both will still rear in harness.
These 2 are rideable, but the U/S came first & she did none of that training.
To my mind, neither of these horses is truly safe to drive & far from finished.

If you have someone to be on the ground when you try your Shire U/S might be worth it as he is broke to bridle.
Leg pressure in place of whip cue may be an issue.
Wishing you Luck. :encouragement:

[enjoytheride]

@2DogsFarm

I have to mostly agree with @enjoytheride depending on exactly what Hell breaks loose when you’re driving.
A friend has 2 she claims to have trained to drive but after several years both will still rear in harness.
These 2 are rideable, but the U/S came first & she did none of that training.
To my mind, neither of these horses is truly safe to drive & far from finished.

If you have someone to be on the ground when you try your Shire U/S might be worth it as he is broke to bridle.
Leg pressure in place of whip cue may be an issue.
Wishing you Luck. :encouragement:

Honestly it sounds like a wreck waiting to happen. A horse who’s dangerous to handle on the ground and dangerous under harness sounds like a trip to the ER if you get on him. I’m surprised someone hasn’t gotten seriously hurt if this horse behaves in such a manner in harness.

[PNWjumper]

I was given a tiny (15.1h and petite) TB who had been started on the track, but bowed a tendon before ever racing and sat feral from age 2 until 11. A lady who did pony parties owned him and he lived in a field with 20 ponies. I think she was scared of him because he was “so big.”

He had obviously been ridden when being trained to race, but it had been a long time. He wasn’t particularly hard to re-break, but was a huge chicken. I remember thinking at least once a day, “what a shame no one worked with this horse.” It took him a lot longer than a younger horse to figure things out. Though he did retain things really well once he learned them. I started him over jumps and thought that was where his age really showed. It reminded me a lot of what it must be like to try to teach a 40-year old person to run hurdles. But in that same vein, I felt like he was mature enough to refrain from tantrums and though he had a decent buck when turned loose, never tried it with a rider on board. He’s now 25(ish) and owned by the love of his life, a little dressage lady.

So much depends on the individual horse. But with one who’s wicked smart and a bit bored, sounds like it might be a really good avenue for him.

[Posting_Trot]

Somehow I got the sense that the OP has a clue about what she’s doing in terms of handling this horse, and her comments were that as a handler, she has to keep on her toes with him just to remind him of who pays the bills.

I’d agree that since he already has been trained to drive, he’ll probably be just fine about learning to be ridden under saddle. Just make sure your saddle and bridle really fit him–I can imagine that finding a saddle wide enough for him might be a challenge, and a too-narrow saddle can cause enough pain that he could bronc.

Have fun.

[M_al]

We have taught a LOT of driving (big) drafts to ride secondarily to being moved into second career as vaulting horses. You describe exactly how they are, lol. Firstly, he needs to not be pushy with you on the ground. They are too big and it gets dangerous in a hurry. It’s all well and good to be sweet and cuddly with the drafts but it gets dangerous if they walk over you or get pushy. Wrath of god in those situations!!!

Mostly, the driving drafts are pretty ‘meh’ about being sat on … no big deal, they’ve had stuff all over them for years. There is no ‘go’ from your legs initially - it really helps to use verbal cues to help them put it together as well as a helper on the ground to lead them forward. And steering is just plow-reining at first, again, they are usually willing but a bit clueless so keep giving ‘attaboys’ like with any green horse.

Re: cantering. Stick to walk and trot until you have steering and whoa. Usually they are pretty unbalanced and little arenas don’t help. If you have access to a STURDY round pen to introduce the concept while you’re still on the ground (and also introduce a circle right away) it helps. Otherwise, they can be really unbalanced and if you get down the long side drop a gait as they will probably not maintain canter through the corner initially so just expect it.

Places we’ve found ‘gotchas’ …

• dismounting (horse spooks on being ‘slid’ down)
• have someone hold the horse while mounting. It’s not unusual to see a tall mounting block with an even taller barstool next to it to climb up on to reach the horse. It takes a while.
• don’t freak out if the horse has BIG and UNBALANCED gaits.

Have you tried climbing on his back and being led around like a pony ride? (Or finding a bold teenager to do the sitting on, lol) - this will tell you a LOT about how he will react to stuff.

Good luck! After you ride a bunch of the 18-handers, everything else seems so little.

Proud member of the ‘my riding horse would joust better than yours’ club.

[findeight]

Ones I worked with that had never been finished and sat for years never were particularly difficult to restart. Biggest issue was lack of work ethic, not bucking or theatrics. This draft has been working so guessing that’s not going to be a issue.

But, please, get rid of the bad manners first. He’s too big to get pushy with you and you will be a whole lot closer to him then driving.

[M_al]

Adding on … wait to canter under saddle for a good long time. Just keep working it on the ground in a round pen.

There was a comment about lunging - does your horse already lunge? If not, that’s a whole 'nother skill to teach if you don’t have a round pen and this is where the (big) drafts differ - they WILL drag you. 2000 lbs of ‘lean into pressure’ is nothing 120 lbs can control without teaching the concept of circling first. Walk is pretty controllable. Anything faster can go downhill in a hurry - so start slow and work up!

Sounds like you already know this, but the big drafts have some quirks. Yes, they are mellow (relatively) … but … omg powerful.