Update post 51 we weighed the feed Feed help - OTTB needs weight and muscle

[alteredcarbon]

I have a 5 year old OTTB gelding boarded at the trainer’s barn. I’m having problems getting him to the weight and condition I’d like. The training barn feeds Tribute grain and TC30 balancer (no other TC grain), grass hay, and whatever supplements owners provide. My horse lives out most of the day, only in for a few hours until it gets hot. Barn hay was pretty crap up until recently, it seems like finding hay this winter was a huge problem. I had a similar issue (see below).

Currently my horse gets: about 1.5lb TC30, 4lb Kalm N EZ, GUT, Cu/Zn, E, ~2oz Cool Calories 100, ~1/2 cup ground flax, biotin, and a serving of TriAmino. He also gets ~3-4 flakes of grass hay off a 45lb bale, ~2 flakes of alfalfa hay (maybe 5lbs, I provide this and it’s not high quality as it’s the last of last year’s crop), and basically non-existent pasture. He also gets some hay pellets, but no more than a pound or two.

I ran the numbers (not feedxl, but MadBarn’s free tool + some of my own googling) and on paper he shouldn’t be losing weight but he is. He’s supposedly getting about 24,000 calories and “just” enough forage. I’ve treated for ulcers, he’s barely in work (30 minutes of w/t basics and hacking out), and he’s definitely grown in height this spring. He is a bit ribby and generally lacking muscle and condition.

I am wondering what the most cost effective method would be to get his weight up. I was planning to add more Cool Calories (only had him on this a week) and flax, but the powder to grain ratio is getting a bit ridiculous. I could split it all into AM and PM doses and hope barn staff remember to feed the night supplements. A pelleted fat supplement is also possible, or do I pay out of pocket for his hay AND provide a different/more grain? The barn will not feed any more without me paying extra. Thoughts?

[SusanO]

If he is out most of the day - when does he get hay? Especially the alfalfa. He might not be getting enough forage in that scenario unless he is out by himself and gets fed hay then. Also that is not a lot of grain/ balancer for a horse that needs to gain weight. I personally would try to increase his hay and add more alfalfa/ better quality hay if he is going to have time to eat it and not have to share.

[atr]

Can you add an extra meal? Feeding my horse breakfast (in his case 2 quarts Strategy pellets plus a quart of rice bran,) rather than just adding more to his dinner, made a huge difference to my horse. I think it gave him the available calories to build muscle when he needed them, during morning training.

[alteredcarbon]

They throw grass hay in the pastures plus some in the stall at dinner - he’s usually in for at least an hour per meal. That’s why the flake estimate, I can’t tell you exactly how much he is getting outside but I’ve seen the piles and can guess. My alfalfa is in the stall as well at feeding time, and when I go out there to see him I give him some extra while I groom.

I could get more hay once the first cuttings start coming in. Once the heat is here to stay he will be in longer and able to eat more hay, but that may not be until June.

[alteredcarbon]

An extra meal is not impossible but I’d be paying for the service AND the extra food. Not out of the question but it might be less of a hassle and less expensive to just add or switch his grain?

I agree that he’s likely not getting enough forage. He isn’t in long enough to eat a lot of whatever I provide. He looked better a few weeks ago but now the barn staff swears he’s taller again and he’s once again ribby.

In light of that, would switching to a senior grain be a possible help? I could do a higher calorie performance grain but I worry about NSC and am limited to TSC and the Tribute feed store (they might carry a few other options). Or add something like amplify or empower boost? My horse isn’t terribly picky but I also don’t want a huge bucket of food for him to eat in a flash.

[S1969]

@alteredcarbon

1.5lb TC30, 4lb Kalm N EZ, GUT, Cu/Zn, E, ~2oz Cool Calories 100, ~1/2 cup ground flax, biotin, and a serving of TriAmino. He also gets ~3-4 flakes of grass hay off a 45lb bale, ~2 flakes of alfalfa hay (maybe 5lbs, I provide this and it’s not high quality as it’s the last of last year’s crop), and basically non-existent pasture. He also gets some hay pellets, but no more than a pound or two.

Honestly, for a 5 year old TB? That’s not a lot. My retired 29 year TB mare eats more hay than that, and has always been fed a senior grain, even when I got her at 11 (per the vet’s recommendation, as she was severely undernourished and he felt a high fat, low NSC senior diet was the best and most consistent concentrate). Currently she gets about 8-10 lbs/day and unlimited hay. When I was actively putting weight on her, I started her with about 10lbs of alfalfa hay and then unlimited grass hay.

I’ll defer to the feed experts, but wondering if you can convert this:

1.5lb TC30, 4lb Kalm N EZ, GUT, Cu/Zn, E, ~2oz Cool Calories 100, ~1/2 cup ground flax, biotin, and a serving of TriAmino

to something more cost effective but higher in calories/fat. Do you really need all these supplements?

AND, I don’t think there is any way around needing more hay. I don’t think another oz of Cool Calories will do anything at all. That’s like 100 calories.

[Scribbler]

Feed as much hay as the horse will eat before trying to get weight gain from grain.

Can he get a lot more hay in the stall overnight?

The trouble with TB is they can have fast metabolism, ulcers and just be a bit anorexic. Some of them won’t or can’t eat enough hay to keep the weight where you want it. And if the hay is crap it might not do the job.

Nevertheless start with as much hay as horse will eat and then see how that works.

Would also be useful to see photos. He might not be as thin as you think.

[alteredcarbon]

Cost effective would be great. That’s why I’m asking! The grain (RB and K&E) are provided by the barn, hence the supplements trying to balance that out. I’d rather simplify it, but I’m not sure where to start. I will not get a discount for feeding my own grain, and I’m already buying hay. I have to think about these things unfortunately, so I’m wondering what would be the best switch?

Boarding is hard. I can feed the whole pasture more hay on my dime, but that’s not going to happen. He gets as much hay as he can eat when he IS in, but when they’re out it’s whatever the barn throws. Which they are all leaving to go try to rip up the baby grass that’s sorta growing anyway.

[alteredcarbon]

He doesn’t stay in overnight. He is only in for meals (which is about an hour in the AM, and an hour - maybe 3 hours max at night, depending). Staying in isn’t really an option, as he’d be the only one.

He gets as much hay as he can eat when he is in (barn hay is much better now, though it hasn’t been long, and the alfalfa is good in the middle so he’s getting some decent stuff there too).

This is where I’m at - I can keep as much hay in front of him as possible with the barn schedule, but clearly he needs more. “Just feed more hay” is ideal and I agree! but that’s not currently working. So grain or some sort of calorie dense boost needs to happen.

I can’t post pics but the horse is lacking topline (no shock there) and ribs are lightly visible at rest where a few weeks ago they were only visible when he was bent one way or another.

[alteredcarbon]

I could not buy any more cool calories (though I’ll finish the bag), and switch to a rice bran or other higher volume fat supplement.
Or I could replace the barn feed for TC Senior or some other grain. I’d have to crunch the numbers, this may not be financially possible.
Or I could supplement at least part of the barn grain with Senior or something else.

For this situation, would Senior feed be a good idea? Are there higher calorie but NSC conscious options? Or since the bases are presumably covered with the barn balancer, would adding fat calories in a higher volume be good? I don’t want to wait until June when he will stay in longer to see improvement based on having more time to eat hay inside.

[luvmyhackney]

Could you switch to senior or just feed more of the current grain? Add oil or more flax? Feed a third meal?

More forage is the answer, but doesn’t seem possible based on situation. Is he the first in his stall and last to go out so he gets maximum hay eating time?

[beowulf]

Are you certain that is how much he is actually eating? That is what the barn says – but have you seen them measure, feed, provide, and then him consume all of it? Not accusing the barn of anything shady, just wondering if there are herd mates or competition that are taking his food.

Ages four to six are a tough year for an off track TB, especially if they recently came down from racing. They are still growing, used to rocket-fuel feed (high cal, high fat, high quantity), very fit, with high metabolism so they shred right through a “normal” amount of feed for a horse in normal work.

I didn’t think that was a lot of hay, from what you wrote. But you are probably limited by the barn’s hay protocol there. 3-4 flakes off an average bale is not that much, and over a 24 hr period, that means they only have hay in front of them for a few hours a day. Most horses can eat 1 flake in 30 minutes if no dentition issues or distractions.

Regarding the grain, I always put my OTTBs on a high fat/high fiber grain + alfalfa pellets. I think TC Senior would be closest to what I feed in terms of GA. You could also get more into him via alfalfa pellets - 1 qt generally has the same nutritional value as a heavy flake (~10lb). When I boarded my 5 y/o TB at a boarding barn, I was soaking and bringing his alfalfa pellets to the barn every day and letting him eat it while I tacked him up.

The most cost effective, least time-consuming or labor-intensive solution would probably be adding 1 cup of oil to his grain. 1 cup of canola is about ~2000 calories. If you go this route, topdress his grain but start with 1/4c and work your way up. While there are BETTER options out there than oil, from a cost/labor standpoint as a boarder, oil is usually the easiest thing to add to a horse’s grain.

Your situation highlights what is problematic about most boarding barns - they rarely feed enough hay and it’s often difficult to truly cater to an individual horse’s needs without sacrificing the bottom line. It’s not cost effective or efficient, and it’s more labor intensive. One of the many reasons I keep my horses at home on a 24/7 round bale.

One more thing I thought of - make sure he is not pacing the fence line during turnout. They do that for a variety of reasons (lack of free choice food or grass, lack of herd safety, herd insecurity, etc), but nothing melts off weight faster than a horse that paces the fence line.

[alteredcarbon]

I could do oil, up the flax, or add grain. I’ll be paying out of pocket for more grain, so I figured a “better” grain might be good. I just wasn’t sure what to look for

[SmlHpy1]

I don’t have much advice. But I’m in a similar situation with a 29 year old OTTB and made a similar post. Also Tribute grain. I don’t wanna switch his grain totally and pay for it all as I’m already paying for hay. So I got nothing to add, but good luck.

[alteredcarbon]

It isn’t much hay, that’s true. But he doesn’t pace, or really do any running around despite having multiple acres and friends. They say he mostly stands with his buddies by the gate which is all they do.

Would using oil for a while (say a year) to get him over the hump be bad for him long term? I’ve always shied away from it due to omega issues. Flax or EO3 oil isn’t cheap. Alternatively, I could add TC Senior, or if you have another suggestion? I may be able to get something else.

Interesting about the pellets - that would be easier than sourcing and storing hay. I hate soaking pellets and cubes, but it is worse in winter since they don’t have hot water easily available and won’t soak anything for long. I can take him some when I go see him though, they can soak in a lidded bucket in my truck while I’m at work on those days.

[alteredcarbon]

On paper, the Tribute looks fine but I had another young OTTB not do well on it, and ended up switching him to a balancer, alfalfa pellets, and a ton of empower boost. It worked, but it wasn’t fun or easy (boarding, again, so I was working within certain constraints). I hate this. I keep some retirees at home but I don’t have riding space, so the horses that need “real” training have to be boarded out if I want to make progress.

[beowulf]

There are some concerns with feeding vegetable or canola oil; its Omega 3/6 ratio is not ideal, and there are links to increased inflammation on oil. If you need to get calories in cheap though, it’s one of the most commercially available and cost effective ways to get calories into a horse.

I don’t worry about the increased inflammation concerns. My horses are out 24/7, so they move around so much it’s not an issue.

[S1969]

I couldn’t get a cup of oil into my TB for anything. So, if you can, it could be useful. But there was absolutely no way for me.

I agree that “supposedly getting 24K calories” might not be the same as what he’s actually getting - especially if being fed hay in a herd. There is no way to guarantee that he’s getting enough, and if he’s not the boss and they are all TBs - he’s probably getting much less because the others need his share to get their needs met.

How committed are you to this boarding situation? What does the trainer think about his weight - the trainer should also want to be sure he’s getting enough for lots of different reasons.

[alteredcarbon]

There is no moving him, except home to retirement. Trainer is great for the riding portion but doesn’t control the barn. BO has WBs and generally thinks the TBs “are all just like that”. Trainer thinks the horse is growing which is why his weight fluctuates so wildly on the same diet (trainer also wasn’t happy with the barn hay over winter and helped me source my alfalfa. Even gave me space to store it with their personal horses’ hay). Rock, meet hard place. I’ve explored options but when it comes to safety of facilities and practical distance and training, this is it.

I agree that the google calorie count is likely higher than reality, else his metabolism is still higher than normal. He raced until last year.

[RooTheDay]

Generally agree that hay is the way, but also understand the constraints of boarding, and while oil is cheapest (and, while of course the fatty acid ratio is not ideal, I don’t worry about that too much when using it in the context of weight gain), it is not always palatable and the staff generally hate to deal with it.

Unfortunately, hard keepers is something I have a bit of experience with. Things that have worked for me:

• straight alfalfa when possible
• a lot of Cool Calories
• Triple Crown Senior and Purina Ultium (both decent NSC around ~2K kcal/lb)
• Purina Amplify as a fat supplement (this worked even on an older TB who was very picky and already getting the other options; it seems super palatable)

If this were my horse, this is what I’d do given the fiscal and environmental constraints:

• cut the TC30 (if you’re feeding the Kalm N EZ at recommended rates, you don’t need it for balancing purposes and you don’t need him to get a double dose of the RDAs of things; not knocking TC30, my current mare eats it!)
• up the Kalm N EZ to 5 lb per meal, 10 lb total, per the recommended feeding ranges (slowly! not all at once)
• keep as much alfalfa as possible
• cut the rest of the supps to save money
• add Amplify if you’re still not happy with how he looks after upping the Kalm N EZ as much as you can (cutting everything else will likely pay for the Amplify)