The person quoted was replying to me about how I used to get a ridiculous amount of hay for my pony but they couldn’t use enough shavings to soak up a pee spot.
It was 5-6 flakes for a 12 hand pony at night. Approx 20ish lbs of hay. Round bale in pasture. Pretty close to all you can eat buffet. Horses got even more.
5-6 flakes is alarming for a pony I agree.
That is even worse since OP was saying their TB was getting 3-4 a day…
Agree that it reflects poorly on BO and trainer. Disagree that they should be leading the charge here. I wish more owners would take the active role in understanding a feed program and advocating for their horse’s needs that the OP has.
I think you missed that the trainer is trying to help the OP with the feeding program. It’s the BO that is telling the OP that she has to pay for extra feed.
Ran the feedxl. Looks like I can actually drop all the supplements if I wanted to with the ultium and K&E. I’m going to finish the flax I have and keep the GUT, E, Cu/Zn and biotin for him, but drop the fat and protein. From what I can tell he’s getting plenty of those from the feed. In fact he doesn’t appear to need the Cu/Zn either, but it’s cheap and the ratio is good.
Sadly this doesn’t really save me a ton of money and he still needs 4lbs or more of additional forage. Once the horse can stay in longer and eat hay I’ll probably do that. Or if he gets fat and hot I’ll reevaluate. It does fix the calorie deficit that is likely the problem. I realize feedxl is an estimate especially without tested hay but it said on the old diet he was getting 5k-9k fewer calories than needed to gain weight.
Yes my trainer is trying to help as best they can. The older horses aren’t struggling, even the couple TBs. I don’t think the BO knows they are TBs, otherwise they wouldn’t have told me his breed is the reason he’s on the thin side. We think he’s a body score of 3-4 depending on who you ask.
Why wouldn’t they be leading the charge? If OP is paying for full board it’s the BO/BM’s responsibility. The BM should have alerted the BO the moment the horse dropped weight. OP said this horse is at a 3/4 on the HBCS, that is something that the staff should have noticed and already had a game plan in place. It’s concerning that the boarder has to push MGMT to feed this horse more.
The owner shouldn’t have to step in and provide additional barring this being a medical event which sounds unlikely.
It does matter what’s in the contract though. Some BOs get around providing actual/adequate feed by having a hard limit enforced in the contract.
Some boarders/owners think a horse with a BSC of 6 is horribly skinny - but there’s also plenty of BOs and BMs that are just fine allowing a skinny horse to lose weight because they don’t want to feed it more. And they’ll cop out and blame the breed as is happening here.
FWIW my TBs are the easiest keepers on the farm. It’s not the breed. It’s the management.
Ok, clearly something got lost in translation here. I was really just trying to commend OP for being an active advocate for their horse in sorting out the feed program. I think many owners are disincentivized from really learning about proper feeding and management because the expectation is that it’s left up to barn owners/managers or trainers.
Yes, in a quality boarding facility this should have been noticed and addressed by management before the owner ever had to sound the alarm. Based on OP’s description of the BO’s attitude, the forage and pasture quality (or lack thereof), it sounds like there’s a lot to be desired on that front.
I disagree with this. “Full board” can mean a lot of things. I wouldn’t expect coming up with a nutrition plan to be included in full care board as standard practice, and I’d be annoyed if my barn made changes without checking with me. Feeding according to the owner’s instructions, yes, but actually deciding what to feed and initiating changes on their own is something I’d only expect in a full training program where the owner has turned over the daily care. In other situations I’d consider it a perk to have someone knowledgeable enough to provide nutrition advice but wouldn’t expect it.
I also don’t think it’s ridiculous for a barn to charge extra for horses that need more than standard amounts of grain, as long as it’s clearly communicated in the contract up front. It’d be unusual in a show barn but not in more casual situations. Whether this barn’s definition of “enough” grain is actually enough for most horses is a different story, but the practice itself isn’t that strange.
Define easy keeper?
I have 1 TB, 1 APHA, and 1 Dutch WB. The TB eats more than the other two put together, she’s always lean to perfect, and they are still fat. They are out as a herd so feeding enough hay to the TB means the others have access to more than they need.
If she gets enough food, she’s a pretty easy keeper in the sense that I don’t have to do much else. But no way would I call my TB an “easy keeper” compared to my two fatties, who should be restricted.
That IS standard practice in a quality boarding barn. I pointed out in the post you quoted to check the contract.
Me too. That’s not what I said, though. The BO/BM should have noted the 3/4 BSC and approached OP discussing what they’re doing to improve his condition, not the other way around. It sounds like OP noticed declining condition first.
Yes, but the horse is not getting much grain/hay objectively. He’s getting fed less than the grain bag’s recommended amount. 3-4 flakes a day, 5lb of Kalm N EZ. OP is providing additional alfalfa herself.
According to Kalm N EZ: for a 1,100-1,300 lb horse in light work, the recommended amount to feed daily is twice that.
They need to read the back of the grain bag.
I am all for charging more for a horse who needs extra grain/hay but I am not going to charge a client more for them needing to eat the actual recommended guideline for my grain of choice, or for needing to eat the recommended hay/weight ratio. I would build that into my board price.
Maybe this is my long-term BO/BM mindset showing but I can’t stand BOs/BMs that undercut the client because “it’s a TB, they’re all skinny”. They are not skinny if you actually feed them appropriately. 
One of my TBs doesn’t even need grain at all. He only gets it because we’re in a herd turnout arrangement and he is boss, and it’s just easier to distract him into a stall while the others eat. He’s in moderate-heavy work so burns it off, but he’s pretty fat. The other TBs are seniors, all ex-race horses with mixed jobs - one is an eventer, one is retired.
They get 2lb alfalfa and 2lb Fibremax split between two feedings. That’s less than what this horse gets, and he’s a young horse in work. The difference is they get adequate hay.
Our least easy keeper is a QH with no teeth, who eats about 13lb complete feed (Senior) a day, and about 10lb of timothy cubes, weighed before soaking. Gettin’ old isn’t cheap.
Well standard practice in general and standard practice in a top quality barn are two different things. As I said, having someone that can provide sound feeding advice is great but I would not assume that was the case unless I screened for it ahead of time. Even plenty of good barns have weird opinions on feeding that I may not want to go along with. It sounds like OP is not in a barn with an organized “program” and I don’t think the fact that they are deferring to her to decide what she wants is a red flag in itself.
Yes, which is why I said:
I don’t agree with this barn’s actual feeding program and it’s not somewhere I would keep my horse, but that’s ultimately on OP to either move (which she said isn’t an option) or find a solution (which she is working on). That doesn’t change the fact that the barn’s thought process isn’t that weird.
IMO they should note the BSC and then ASK the OP what SHE would like them to do about it within the options they are willing to support. I wouldn’t want any major changes made until I was given a chance to weigh in. If they wanted to present a solution that would be great, but ultimately it’s the owner’s decision to make in consultation with their vet/nutritionist/the internet/etc.
Oh well, I wouldn’t count elderly or toothless as standard “hard keeper” - of course they are harder to manage. But all things being equal, my TB has always eaten more than my others regardless of whether in work or not. Even as a 29 year old retiree I have to be careful to make sure she gets enough hay; it’s not as easy as throwing a couple flakes/horse.
Reread my posts; the things you’re saying are already mentioned in mine. I did not say anything about doing this behind OP’s back or without OP’s involvement.
Contracts are built around the recommended feeding guidelines for the grain/hay selected for the program. What this horse is getting for his level of work/age/weight is not in line with the grain manufacturer’s recommendation.
Whether or not this is a “quality” boarding barn, IDK, but I bet the BO/BM don’t advertise this as a “sub-par” boarding facility.
That’s why I said “least easy keeper”. 
Every horse is different. Every barn should have a metric for what constitutes as hard keepers in their contract; usually specified by exclusion (i.e “will feed up to 9 lb grain a day”). There’s other considerations to factor in too - like the barn itself. Some things hard keepers require may be untenable in certain barns, like requiring a dry lot 24/7, or more realistically, not being able to eat any hay at all but requiring herd turnout.
My experience with TBs being “hard keepers” is those specific horses come off the track with ulcers and/or undiagnosed pain. Once that’s fixed up they tend to be as easy to keep as any other horse. Again, just my experience having various sport horses in the barn.
I brought home a very underweight TB last year. I did many of the things that RooTheDay recommends. I fed TC senior (6 quarts/day - 7.5 Lbs) as he wouldn’t eat Strategy (which is what his previous owners fed), I didn’t feed Cool Calories, but did feed Amplify. I have fed oil in the past but it can be tricky getting a horse to eat it and the last thing you want is to have your horse stop eating his grain. Amplify is more expensive but most horses really like it.
I also came and fed him lunch as it does help to break up the feeding into smaller meals.
He got as much hay as he would eat, which was a lot. He vastly prefers hay. My guess is that he was up around 30 lbs per day at the beginning, mostly eating it overnight. We also have all day turn out on grass so that helped.
This discussion about boarding barns and what they should and shouldn’t provide is why I love self-care. I know not everyone has the ability to provide their own feed and hay, but if you do have that ability, there’s nothing better than having 100% control over your horse’s nutrition. Our barn has someone who you can pay to do the actual feeding, but you provide everything yourself. We’re all given adequate space to store feed and hay, and the BM and BO keep the facility well-maintained (pastures dragged/mowed, fences mended, ring dragged, trails cleared, etc).
They explained to me when I moved there that they didn’t want to mess with full-board because you can never please everyone and one of two things will happen if/when feed and hay prices go up: either the barn will have to raise board or they’ll have to feed less. Nobody likes either of those options. And the bottom line is…well, the bottom line…for a boarding business. Of course, that’s why they say there’s no money to be made in boarding. I think the only way you can make money at it is doing it the way my barn does. My BO is a general contractor, so he has all the heavy equipment and literally an entire work force at his disposal that can handle just about anything. From building fences and barns to clearing trails in the woods, rocking driveways, and putting in an arena, etc. he has the resources to do it all (and does). Not a dime is spent on the actual horses themselves, just the facility. It’s not “fancy” but it’s nice, safe, clean, and very horse friendly. For $200/month my horse and his BFF (who I take care of for his owner) have their own brand-new 2-stall barn with fans, lights, overhang and tack/feed room in their own pasture (a little over an acre, so not huge, but enough). I had a shelter that the BO moved out there for me, and that’s where my hay is stored. The pasture is dragged daily and mowed as needed (mostly to knock weeds down since the horses keep it grazed). I have wooded trails, a ring if I choose, or a field if I want to ride there. Hot water in the indoor wash rack, another cold water outdoor wash rack. Bathroom. Even free bottled water in the summer in the fridge in the main barn.
If you want someone else to dish out the vittles (that you provide) to your critter, you have to arrange and pay extra for that. Most boarders do choose this. I’m pretty much the only one that feeds mine (and his roomie) myself every meal.
Anyway. I feel for the OP. I had my own place for 20 years and was used to doing it “my way.” The three years after I sold my place were so frustrating for me and my poor horse. Getting to my current place and gaining control again over the groceries for Mr. Horse has been a god send.
I’ve had a couple of skinny horses over the years. I found that FatCat helps a lot. I’m not a feeding genius, but it worked for me.
Around here, few barns include the purchase of grain in their board costs. You want anything other than hay fed, you provide it yourself all baggied up, complete with any supplements or medications you wish to add. They will feed it for you, but usually charge extra for feeding more than one grain meal a day.
So yes, I pay extra for grain and extra for a breakfast feeding, and I make up baggies for two different feedings. Splitting his feed into two meals a day made a whole lot of difference in how his body uses it.
What a great set up you found @RhythmNCruise. If I ever had to board again that is exactly what I would want.
I think a lot of people probably would, you know? Especially experience horse owners who know enough to have strong feelings about what they feed and how much, etc. Not all barn owners are as educated about nutrition and best practices when it comes to feeding and management. They mean well, but they just don’t know.
Now, I do see how it could go the other way, and an educated, experienced barn owner might have a hard time letting a new horse owner do things that are obviously not in the horse’s best interest. One would hope a newbie owner would seek advice from a knowledgeable BO/BM about what and how much to feed though. Rarely does that work in reverse…BO/BM listening to a knowledgeable boarder. Usually it just becomes a power struggle with hard feelings and the horse being the unfortunate one caught in the middle (like the OP’s situation).
But yeah. Let horse owners have total control over the feed and hay. Everyone comes out happier in the end that way.
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