Update post 51 we weighed the feed Feed help - OTTB needs weight and muscle

[beowulf]

@tabula_rashah

I’m in the mid-Atlantic and free choice hay seems to be the norm, I’ve never worked or boarded anywhere that wasn’t. I currently board 5 on self-care, they have 24/7 access to round bales and pasture. I feel like there are just too many issues that come from lack of forage

“Free choice hay” is just a buzz word with boarding barns, and is rarely provided in reality. You self-care so I believe you about your horse as you’re in control of his feeding.

Every local barn in my area touts “free choice”, but it’s not unfettered access to hay 24/7. There might be hay in front of the horse at some point during operating hours. At turn in they’re usually given a few flakes, expected to last the ~12 hours they’re in a stall.

Boarders believe their horse is getting round the clock hay as peak riding times tend to coincide with feed times, and don’t see the hours at night or mid-afternoon the horses are standing around with no hay. Boarders have no concept of how quickly a flake of hay goes - about 30m. Do the math. That’d be at least 6 flakes of hay during stall time alone. Doesn’t include the other 12 hours a day.

Always look at the contract because many boarding barns specify “hay within reason” and then specify that is “3-5 flakes of hay a day” in their contract.

It is not economically feasible for barns to actually offer that service, unless it’s a roundbale or large (200+lb) square bale out in a field.

In other words, unless your horse[g] is in front of a round-bale 24/7, it’s unlikely he’s getting “free choice hay”.

[candyappy]

@alteredcarbon

BO has WBs and generally thinks the TBs “are all just like that”.

@alteredcarbon

He also gets ~3-4 flakes of grass hay off a 45lb bale,

Sadly if this is the mindset of the BO, I do not think this place will never be a good fit for your horse.

Adequate forage for your horses needs has got to be available or you are going to eventually have issues that come from a high bagged feed/ low forage diet.

@alteredcarbon

I keep some retirees at home but I don’t have riding space,

At the rate you are going it would be cheaper to keep him at home, feed what he needs and trailer in for lessons and some riding ? Do you have a flat place in the pasture to school at home a few days?

[tabula_rashah]

I’ve worked at, boarded at, trained at, etc a lot of barns in MD and PA and yes, real free choice hay (aka if you horse is stalled and there isn’t hay left over that you are tossing in the morning, then you aren’t feeding enough). Plus bedding on straw is the norm so if they did for some reason run out, they can still put something in their stomach. For 5 horses- a round bale lasts me about 5-6 days and is $50-$100 depending on where I get it from. If I have to do small squares I feed 3-4 a day when there’s no pasture at $10-$13 each. It’s not cheap but neither is ulcer meds or colic and I don’t need to feed any grain that way either

[beowulf]

@tabula_rashah

I’ve worked at, boarded at, trained at, etc a lot of barns in MD and PA and yes, real free choice hay (aka if you horse is stalled and there isn’t hay left over that you are tossing in the morning, then you aren’t feeding enough). Plus bedding on straw is the norm so if they did for some reason run out, they can still put something in their stomach. For 5 horses- a round bale lasts me about 5-6 days and is $50-$100 depending on where I get it from. If I have to do small squares I feed 3-4 a day when there’s no pasture at $10-$13 each. It’s not cheap but neither is ulcer meds or colic and I don’t need to feed any grain that way either

Small squares are so much more cost prohibitive to feed. It is too bad more barns can’t take advantage of round bales - but they come with a lot of additional work and most barns aren’t set up to handle round bales or herd turnout. I have five horses out on 600lb round bales and they last about how long yours do. Godsend for me, I couldn’t afford to feed straight squares.

[alteredcarbon]

Keeping riding horses at home is not an option.

To be fair, the horse is out on pasture. The pasture is kept deliberately poor quality, but there is stuff to nibble on. It’s just not quite enough for this horse.

[luvmyhackney]

@beowulf

Boarders believe their horse is getting round the clock hay as peak riding times tend to coincide with feed times, and don’t see the hours at night or mid-afternoon the horses are standing around with no hay. Boarders have no concept of how quickly a flake of hay goes - about 30m. Do the math. That’d be at least 6 flakes of hay during stall time alone. Doesn’t include the other 12 hours a day.

Mid-Atlantic barns really do have/offer all the hay. When I boarded I had to constantly take hay out of my ponies stall. They were giving him 5-6 flakes a night. This was at multiple barns. They skimp on shavings but give plenty of hay.

Many horses can’t have forage 24/7 as they have weight issues. I have 2 with that issue that are in fat camp. I have to carefully portion out their hay in 1” hay nets.

[RooTheDay]

@luvmyhackney

Mid-Atlantic barns really do have/offer all the hay. When I boarded I had to constantly take hay out of my ponies stall. They were giving him 5-6 flakes a night. This was at multiple barns. They skimp on shavings but give plenty of hay.

This is not my experience, also in the mid-Atlantic. The only way I have ever been able to accomplish this is by stuffing and hanging a Giant Haynet o’ Doom my own self, even at otherwise excellent barns. (With BM permission.)

I believe you that it has happened for you! But it is not universal, even in the mid-Atlantic, because hay is expensive and–frankly–many boarded horses don’t work hard enough to burn off free-choice hay without being fat.

[beowulf]

@luvmyhackney

Mid-Atlantic barns really do have/offer all the hay. When I boarded I had to constantly take hay out of my ponies stall. They were giving him 5-6 flakes a night. This was at multiple barns. They skimp on shavings but give plenty of hay.

Many horses can’t have forage 24/7 as they have weight issues. I have 2 with that issue that are in fat camp. I have to carefully portion out their hay in 1” hay nets.

Five-six flakes sounds appropriate for an average sized horse. I can understand why you’d pull that out for a pony, though.

Ponies present different challenges, being hardier and air ferns as a general rule. They look at hay and get fat.

The horses (assuming horses, not ponies) that “can’t have forage 24/7” would probably benefit from 24/7 turnout and having their grain cut. Horses were designed to eat 24/7. It’s modern practices that have curtailed this.

[punchy]

I’d just keep it simple right now and up his grain a bit.

[alteredcarbon]

I picked up a bag of Ultium Competition (my store didn’t have gastric care) to see if he will eat it. I plan to sub it in for some of his current feed, I need to run numbers. If he likes it, I’ll finish out the supps I have and then not reorder. For now I’ll just add it in to bring him up to a “full serving” of complete feed.

I also plan to buy pellets instead of more hay. When I get to that point, unless they start staying in long enough to let me throw a bunch in his stall.

[alteredcarbon]

Update: I had trainer weigh what he is getting. Turns out daily the feed is:

5-6lb Kalm N EZ
.8lb TC30
~2lb hay pellets

I’m thinking of having them drop the hay pellets and TC30 and add 4lb daily Ultium instead. This would max out the recommended 5lb hard feed/meal but add an extra ~7200kcal. It may make him hot but I plan to drop the Cool Calories. The rest of my supplements I need to run through the numbers.

I’m still looking at the logistics of getting more forage into him.

Oil was a no.

[alteredcarbon]

To add: dropping the hay pellets because I’ll feed him more than that when I’m there (not daily but often) and that bucket was getting pretty high volume. They won’t feed the pellets in a different container.

[SmlHpy1]

What do you use to run numbers?

[Posting_Trot]

A lot of knowledgeable people have weighed in (sorry about the pun!) here, and I just wanted to add a couple of ideas.

One is, buy yourself a weight tape and use it to measure your horse on a weekly basis. The tapes are not particularly accurate in terms of the weight they show, but they will let you know if the horse is gaining or losing weight, and you won’t be dependent on the barn staff swearing the horse has just grown or whatever. You’ll know.

The second point is about ulcers. You may have mentioned it up-thread and I missed it, but it might be worthwhile just treating him with some Gastroguard and seeing if it helps at all.

Good luck!

[alteredcarbon]

We did a month of ulcer treatment when he got there. I really hope I don’t need to do another.

Good idea about the weight tape, thanks!

[alteredcarbon]

Feedxl. I use google and Mad Barn for vague curiosity but feedxl is paid and worth it for this type of stuff where I really need to know

[beowulf]

@alteredcarbon

5-6lb Kalm N EZ
.8lb TC30
~2lb hay pellets

Is this two times a day, or total?

Your trainer and BM should really be spear-heading this, not you. It’s reflected badly on them that there’s an underweight horse in their barn. Since oil was a no and they don’t want to feed in a different bucket, what was their suggestion for gettng weight on your horse?

[alteredcarbon]

Total

Again the trainer doesn’t run the barn but has been trying to help me make it work. BO basically said I could pay for more feed because he’s growing and a TB.

[alteredcarbon]

My hope is that when/if the horses start staying in longer for the summer, I can drop the ultium and provide hay instead. I don’t know when, for how long, or if that will happen but I’ve had a horse here before and they stayed in 6-7 hours most of the summer due to heat and bugs.

I can bring out pellets to feed while I groom, and hopefully some grass will come in.

To me it seems a better deal to buy a higher calorie grain vs buy more K&E. I’ll probably keep the CU/Zn and vitamin E, and maybe the flax too for the omega 3s. And the protein. Unless feedxl shows I’m way over on any of those. It just looks like flat out calorie-wise, it’s cheaper and less hassle to feed some more grain vs add more and more supplements.

[candyappy]

@beowulf

Five-six flakes sounds appropriate for an average sized horse

Per day? Or at 3x a day feeding?

The weight and actual amount of hay per flake varies drastically bale by bale .

Some flake can end up thin, light and loose and some can be quite wide, packed and heavy all depending on the windrow size when it was baled and they type of hay it is and the cutting. I wouldn’t be confident that the average barn worker or the OP’s BO would even notice a difference but it can be a big difference!