Update Post 95 Winter misery: am I expecting too much?

[awaywego]

Totally agree - that is why I posted an update. I have learned so much from reading about others’ journeys and struggles! I understand that many people have suggested that I move on from my mare, but unless I get this sorted out, I can’t in good conscience move her on to be someone else’s problem - I know what all-too-often happens to “problem” horses.

At this point, I need to send her away to break the hormonal spell she is under since shipping to the vet with my gelding, who she is in LOVE with now I assumed (incorrectly!) that it would be no different than the many times they have shipped together, gone home and promptly forgotten the other’s existence again. Apparently it’s been a very emotional week for her

[JBCool]

@awaywego

Apparently it’s been a very emotional week for her

[TheHunterKid90]

You say she’s good to lunge until she’s not….that also sounds like how she is when you ride. She’s good until she decides she doesn’t want to be because she’s cold, it’s windy etc.
this is a straight up training issue and learned behavior. Of course she’s better when it’s hot out. I’m a fat slug when it’s hot out too.
If you don’t have a round pen and don’t want to buy one, your options are: be brave and climb on, lunge or sell.
If it were me, I would be getting a round pen set up and pouring my heart and soul into ground work until it was SOLID.

[findeight]

You are lucky you can build a round pen. Not an option for many.

[danhelm441]

OP says (in the original post) she has a bad shoulder, so lunging is out. I get that liberty lunging is an option in a round pen, but in my experience, liberty lunging is a wildly different enterprise. It can really jazz a nervous horse up and you have no contact to reel them back in and keep their focus. It might be helpful for burning excess energy, but it’s not the same training tool as actual, purposeful lunging in a cavesson and side reins.

[NoSuchPerson]

I both agree and disagree. If you don’t know how to use it and all you’re doing is turning a hyped up horse loose in a round pen and standing there in the middle, then yes, it’s nothing but a wild melee.

But, if you know how to use it, a round pen is a great tool, just as useful , if not more so, than your “actual, purposeful lunging in a cavesson and side reins.”

In fact, I would venture to say that there are just as many people who don’t know how to properly use a lunging cavesson and side reins as a useful training tool as there are who don’t know how to use a round pen as a useful training tool.

Finally, just because you’re using a round pen doesn’t mean that the horse has to be at liberty. In fact, if you’ve got a bad shoulder, lunging in a round pen is a great alternative because the walls define the horse’s path and take some of the pressure off your arm/shoulder.

[awaywego]

Yeah, no round pens are happening. I do not know everything but I do know that there is no one thing that works for every horse, including round pens

It is really looking like this winter misery may be related to mare-stuff, as her behavior starts being erratic/less consistent when transitional heats start in late August (when it is still plenty hot out here). I took her off Regumate recently (when it was determined that she was in heat despite non-stop Regumate) and let her cycle normally before restarting Regumate, checked again with another ultrasound to confirm the large follicle she had dropped - and now I have my good girl back, cantering along on a loose rein. My vet and I were discussed that maybe what is happening is that she is blowing through the Regumate in transition periods but then maybe due to the Regumate she ends up hanging on to large (and uncomfortable?) follicles? I’m guessing we will be going for more repro work come August but I don’t know if there is a point right now when she seems to be back to normal.

[MapleBreeze]

There is so much solid advice above.
And god made ace to keep you safe just kidding… maybe some reserpine and a stronger bit for the winter reminders. Really at the end of the day your safety matters the most. Maybe start small with a tube of quietex and some perfect prep. And some lunging and you might have your “summertime horse” back.

[Pico_Banana]

I know you said you had her on chasteberry, but which one? I tried a few and the only one that makes a noticeable difference is Evitex. I successfully use that on my mare that used to be a year-round Regumate girl. Her cycles were so difficult it was like we went backward in our training that week. On the Evitex, she’s good.

The chasteberry might help with the repro issues in a way the Regumate does not.

[awaywego]

That’s interesting - are you using Evitex in addition to Regumate or in lieu of Regumate? I just added the smartpak chasteberry. I can’t say that it has helped.

So much for my lovely loping on a loose rein mare. We are back to demon spawn this week. Someone please send an exorcist Going to do another ultrasound - I’m suspicious that this behavior is related to follicle growth.

[fivestrideline]

Man, if I had a mare like this and it WAS repro related, I’d be looking into spaying her. I do know it doesn’t always work (depends on the issue - it’ll stop a lot of things but puts them into permanent hormonal heat, I think?), but she sounds miserable. It must be such an emotional rollercoaster for you, OP!

[Pico_Banana]

I use the Evitex in lieu of Regumate. I started her on the Evitex and loved the result, tried to switch to the SP because it is cheaper, and it didn’t seem to have the same effect, so I switched her back. Much better.

Definitely do the loading dose for a whole month with severe symptoms like you describe. Then go down to maintenance.

One other thing to consider - you may have heard of putting marbles in mares to keep them out of heat? That’s not a great idea because the marbles can break, but I saw something maybe a year or two ago where there is now something that is basically a marble, but actually designed for use in mares.

Okay, had to see if I could find it. Here is the website: https://www.iupod.org/

If you do try that, please report back!

[awaywego]

Spring has sprung and I think I may finally have cracked the nut that is my mare

The breakthrough really started when I took her for yet another exam by my sports med vet (Post #80), where we (again) could not find anything to explain her behavior. I have always kinda wondered about repro-related issues, so that day kinda lead me down that rabbit hole, with a series of ultrasounds and behavior tracking. I began to suspect is that unlike most “problem” mares, mine is not having a problem with bad heats, but something with follicles once they get to a certain size. This theory has basically been confirmed by a protocol of shots of progesterone & estradiol (“P&E”), which, if I understand correctly, effectively keep the ovaries and follicles very small. The change has been really astounding. It has been unusually cold this past week and I have had zero issues riding her. Two days before I had started the P&E protocol, it was hot day and she felt so explosive that I called it a day when we were able to trot two circles without incident. Two days into the P&E shots, we were cantering small jumps without drama.

Finally one of the many vets I have talked with has given the best explanation as to why my mare’s behavior is “good” in the summer. It is not because it’s hot and she’s “lazy” in the hot weather, but that the cycles are very short at that time of year, so more likely what is happening is that the follicles get large very quickly and regress very quickly, so she has a much shorter period of discomfort. (I hope I am explaining this correctly - I am learning as I go too.) This checks out in my experience with her - and was always easily dismissed as just a “bad day” because horses are not robots Unfortunately she is likely one of the mares who cycles year round and the cycles are much longer the rest of the year, and therefore she ends up uncomfortable for much longer periods the rest of the year.

I know I am just an anonymous nobody on the internet so no one knows my competence, but I never really believed it was my riding or lack of groundwork that was the whole problem here. I really always believed there was something physical going on but nothing really has ever added up right.

As promised, this update is to help anyone else who may be struggling similarly. I have spoken to many vets and still feel like the only thing I’ve really feel that I’ve done right is to not sell her to someone else to deal with or send her to some cowboy to “fix.” Next steps are to see if progesterone alone will be enough to keep her comfortable, or if I should consider an ovariectomy, which would have its own potential risks/downsides. But that will be a story for another day

[endlessclimb]

Can she stay on those shots all winter? How is this managed going forward?

[awaywego]

@endlessclimb

Can she stay on those shots all winter? How is this managed going forward?

In short, the P&E shots wouldn’t work indefinitely - they are typically used to sync up mares for breeding purposes because it is well documented/understood the timeline of the cycle. All of the vets I have talked with have slightly different theories, but they are generally in agreement that we need to see when in the next 2 weeks the “bad behavior” returns to make a plan for the future. So I need to test riding every day to see when the drama returns - which is kinda tough for a bunch of reasons, but not least of which is the constant mind game of “is this in the normal range of being fresh or is this the wheels coming off…?”

One vet thinks it may be possible to maintain her on weekly progesterone shots. That sounds great because it is less risky than a permanent bad call on surgery, but I would have to get over my residual fear from deaths by Depo. Another vet has voiced the concern that since we don’t know for sure, surgery could risk creating a permanent “winter scenario” for her, which is of course nightmare fuel. But everyone that it is almost impossible to really know anything 100% for sure with ovariectomies! The only vet who I spoke with who projected a high level of confidence about surgery was a surgeon - so I take that with a grain of salt.

That being said, I’m so tired of the whole thing that it’s very hard to fight the urge to just go for it with surgery and hope for the best. From what we have learned so far, all vets are in agreement that this is an unusual and difficult kind of case. Dontcha love being special!

[RedHorses]

If it’s the follicle size that’s bothering her, wouldn’t removing her ovaries prevent any follicle formation?

[awaywego]

@RedHorses

If it’s the follicle size that’s bothering her, wouldn’t removing her ovaries prevent any follicle formation?

That was my thought too - I thought the dramatic change when her ovaries & follicles were shrunken on the P&E shots was the smoking gun that would point with a high level of certainty to ovariectomy, but maybe there are reasons that it’s quite as clear cut as I am understanding it. I believe all the vets I’ve spoken with support surgery given the info we now have, but they all have different opinions on further testing if I want to keep trying other options. I thought I was up for experimenting a bit more but I may be just too tired of the whole thing to keep riding through another cycle. The whole point of this thread was how miserable all of this makes me! I am no longer confident that I can separate pain-induced behavior from potentially learned behavior from previous pain. I can objectively say she was not biting while being groomed last week, and today she was like a shark again. Maybe that’s enough to go on - or maybe not.

I think I have read every thread on the forum about spaying experiences. Some success stories, and some less than desirable outcomes. Sadly, it would not be the first time in the past few years that I could spend $$$ on surgery and not have a horse at the end of it - so that is probably informing some of my caution as well. (Not that I think she would not make it out of surgery, but that we could have a less desirable outcome.)