Update - WWYD - PPE findings on young OTTB

[beowulf]

@millerra

your claim that all KS horses are symptomatic - lame - implies that those of us w/ KS horses can’t tell our horses are hurting - nor can our vets or our coaches and trainers, some who have vastly more experience than I ever will.

It’s my experience with the KS horses I’ve personally seen. We’ve all witnessed people say “my horse is sound and the set up is perfect” and they show a video of a lame horse or inappropriate set-up. People from the outside looking in might see things differently. Just because someone is not your personal trainer doesn’t mean they can’t see an unsound horse. Trainers have fiscal motive to work a borderline horse. I wouldn’t use them as a metric. YMMV as always.

Yes, many of KS horses are rideable. I fully agree and in most cases advocate for fitness work for these horses. I am only cautioning you not to conflate “rideable” with asymptomatic. Being mindful of the disease and how it affects the horse helps manage it better and sets the horse up for future success.

[millerra]

Wow. Has it ever occurred to you that there are KS horses around competing that you don’t know are KS and you can’t tell they are KS.

[AAHunterGal]

FWIW - my horse recently had a full lameness exam by my excellent vet (who is also a certified chiro) just so we could see where he was at in full work, and he passed beautifully. I truly don’t think he’s symptomatic, and neither does my vet or trainer or any of the other pros who ride him 1x a week. He enjoys working, enjoys jumping, enjoys walking around the farm, and is just a general goofball of a baby horse who does not have any symptoms of pain or distress.

[Bluey]

@AAHunterGal

FWIW - my horse recently had a full lameness exam by my excellent vet (who is also a certified chiro) just so we could see where he was at in full work, and he passed beautifully. I truly don’t think he’s symptomatic, and neither does my vet or trainer or any of the other pros who ride him 1x a week. He enjoys working, enjoys jumping, enjoys walking around the farm, and is just a general goofball of a baby horse who does not have any symptoms of pain or distress.

Lovely horse, glad he is doing fine now.

I seem to understand some thought those first head bobs were horse not quite right?
I think that is called “rein lameness”, horse’s head bobbing as rider is working on getting contact a bit more even, not other source as a sore horse somewhere else?
When evaluating a horse’s way of going, we can see all kinds of things that, in context, are not as they seem on first thought.

Thanks for the update and video, helps all learn more, as does all comments.

[LilRanger]

@millerra

Has it ever occurred to you that there are KS horses around competing that you don’t know are KS and you can’t tell they are KS.

@beowulf

Yes, many of KS horses are rideable. I fully agree and in most cases advocate for fitness work for these horses.

There, see? Consensus reached!

[Tha_Ridge]

@Bluey

I seem to understand some thought those first head bobs were horse not quite right?
I think that is called “rein lameness”, horse’s head bobbing as rider is working on getting contact a bit more even, not other source as a sore horse somewhere else?

Yes. And as someone who has brought along a number of young TBs, I find it to be something that goes away in time. Of course, it can also be caused by issues within the mouth itself — a bad tooth, a low palate, etc. — but I do think it’s the former here. From seeing other videos of the OP’s horse, he likes to travel very light upfront (super trait!) and can be quite quiet, so I think being pushed into a bit of contact out of the contact is going to manifest as a head-bob until he grows and gets fitter. How anyone can interpret that as KS symptoms in a horse that’s been signed off on by a vet is insane to me.

[Lunabear1988]

Once I was lunging my horse (who happens to have mild KS) in front of my trainer and he took a few really funky steps up front. He did seem to work out of it but we decided to give him the day off. Never seen him move like that again, honestly I think he just did something that would be comparable to myself rolling an ankle.

Sometimes funky things just happen.

[Lunabear1988]

I do think a happy horse says a lot too.

My horse has mild kissing spine and stifle issues but he seems pretty happy in work. I can always “see” things but I try not to over worry too much as long as he seems happy and his muscling is always improving which I take as a good sign. My expectations aren’t high though, I’m happy with wherever we end up.

Honestly he goes around with happier ears then most of the horses at the barn who don’t have a KS diagnosis lol.

OP, I hope you have many years with your horse. I think a horse with a good attitude it’s worth its weight in gold. If later on he needs some more maintenance I’m sure you will be there to help him. Luckily there is SO much we can do to help them.

[Aussie_2020]

For a minute I thought the old SLC was back with her long descriptions of ailments.

My first ottb that I bought as an adult would be labeled with KS or something. When I got him he was unfit and thin. He dragged the toes of his hind feet, bobbed his head in the corners at a canter, and was stiff to bend on either side. Within two years he was jumping small courses and completing 60 mile endurance rides. I bought him at 6yo and rode the shoes off of him until he was 18, and then we just did trails. The more he worked the better he felt and looked. And never lame, never. (and that’s not because we’re dumbsh*ts that can’t tell if a horse is lame; meaning myself, my trainer and the barn vet, and the multiple ride vets)

[Tha_Ridge]

@Aussie_2020

For a minute I thought the old SLC was back with her long descriptions of ailments.

I mean, sometimes I think people on here who have had a particularly bad experience with a lameness or illness just want others to HAVE to share their misery.

[CanteringCarrot]

I’m not sure why someone sharing their personal experiences and offering observations needs to be responded to with nastiness? Just take it or leave it.

I do agree that many people, whether they’re vets, trainers, average horse owners, etc. can’t always see the different forms of lameness or subtle signs of changes or discomfort in a horses body. Some vets will even admit that is not their strong suit. As for trainers, well, anyone can call themselves a trainer, so that’s a toss up. An experienced, educated, and dedicated professional should have good eyes and a feeling for things, but at the end of the day, they’re still human.

Do I believe that all KS horses are uncomfortable and/or symptomatic? No.

It’s not outlandish to say that there are some common themes with many KS horses though. You can pick up subtle signs in their movement that shows a compensation or adjustment in their way of going. As with many “conditions” keeping them properly fit and paying attention to their body is usually the most beneficial option. This includes fitness from their back and from the ground (posture work, in-hand work, stretches & flexes).

I had a symptomatic KS horse, and his x-rays weren’t as severe as others I’ve seen, but that’s the thing, treat/work with the individual horse. I don’t think that all horses are like him. Some are, some aren’t.

[clburnham11]

@beowulf any thoughts on a horse demonstrating these clinical signs but no ks?

[beowulf]

@clburnham11

@beowulf any thoughts on a horse demonstrating these clinical signs but no ks?

SI or suspensory injury (or PSD) would be my first guess without seeing the horse. KS symptoms share overlap with other diseases making it a challenge to diagnose. ECVM or early DSLD/ESPA will impact neck and back. Might be worth blocking the suspensories to start and see what you get. Check heel pain and shape of hoof while looking, PSD handshakes with NPA sometimes. Hope you can get to the bottom of it.

[clburnham11]

Great info to consider, thank you!

[Lusoluv]

I’ve had more than 1 occasion where I’ve had a vet come out to check my horse for lameness, only to be told that they didn’t see anything. One time I knew the hind left didn’t feel “right” in my horse. In that case I got a 3rd opinion vet, who saw within a half lap trotting on the lungeline that there was an issue. The vet was new to me, so I didn’t even tell him where I suspected the lameness to be, I just said, “My horse doesn’t feel 100%, can you check him out”?

So don’t take the word of any vet (or even human med professional) as gospel. Some are not good at spotting subtle lamess or can just miss something. No, you don’t want to go looking for trouble that isn’t there, but you also have to be your horse’s advocate if you think something is wrong.

[fivestrideline]

@CanteringCarrot

I’m not sure why someone sharing their personal experiences and offering observations needs to be responded to with nastiness? Just take it or leave it.

I do agree that many people, whether they’re vets, trainers, average horse owners, etc. can’t always see the different forms of lameness or subtle signs of changes or discomfort in a horses body. Some vets will even admit that is not their strong suit. As for trainers, well, anyone can call themselves a trainer, so that’s a toss up. An experienced, educated, and dedicated professional should have good eyes and a feeling for things, but at the end of the day, they’re still human.

Do I believe that all KS horses are uncomfortable and/or symptomatic? No.

It’s not outlandish to say that there are some common themes with many KS horses though.

Agree with your whole post but especially this. The nastiness is uncalled for!

No one is saying this horse is dead lame and should be retired/treated/etc. Discussing (in general) KS and the warning signs of back pain is relevant and I think helpful - note that it was acknowledged that many issues present similar symptoms to KS, it’s the sum of the whole that raises the red flags for back issues. It was said that plenty of horses can be managed successfully. It was also acknowledged that the horse is question looks currently happy in work and hopefully will stay that way for years to come.

I will concur that spine issues, SI, suspensory, and NPA all can have similar presentations and more importantly all feed into each other. My KS horse has always been a balancing act - one thing goes and the rest falls apart. I will also concur that I have had vets dismiss horses that actually ARE NQR, and have had horses that took extensive blocking, a really honed eye for sporthorse lameness, and a gyroscope to pinpoint an issue that only the rider could feel. Suggesting that an owner keep an eye on it and compare videos over time with an issue like this is not antagonistic or out of line.

[vxf111]

Something about KS makes everyone lose their minds. It should be studied.

[Aussie_2020]

You’re the second person to use the phrase “the nastiness is uncalled for”. What is so nasty to you? Because a couple of us are not buying the vet-type diagnosis from a short video?

[fivestrideline]

Some posters, yourself included, have been downright nasty to someone who shared their OPINION, personal experience, and insight in a way that was in NO WAY trying to be a vet or suggesting the owner do anything other than keep an eye on it. I will not quote these instances because I don’t want to turn this into an argument thread.

Everyone is welcome to their own opinions and to share their experiences, even to politely disagree. OP can take what’s helpful and leave the rest , but it would be nice to have a discussion without getting into dramatics and snark.

That’s all I’ll say on the matter.

[Rel6]

I mean, one of those posters was literally just asked to provide, and did provide, potential diagnoses.

I think it’s fair to push back on some of the armchair vetwork that goes on here.