UPDATED: Thoughts on this stallion's pedigree for breeding performance horses?

[somanyhorses]

What are your opinions on this stallion’s pedigree? http://www.pedigreequery.com/classic+endeavor

I’m in the Southern Hemisphere and this stallion was bred and imported from the USA, so I’m appealing to your knowledge base! He belongs to a friend of mine, and was a real warhorse on the track and looks to be a classy type. http://www.ilalastud.net/#!classic-endeavor/cq4e I like his shoulder, powerful back end, good length of rein. I haven’t seen him in the flesh, but plan to, the photo is OK but not the greatest. He seems to have not produced much by way of successful racehorses, but I like his type for producing eventers.

In Australia we really don’t have many horses with Buckpasser, so whilst I know he was a superstar TB stallion, I’d love to hear whether his lines turn up much in sporthorse pedigrees. I know it’s pretty rare to see him up so close in a pedigree. I’m a little more familiar with the names in the dam line, however welcome any further insight there.

I’m considering him for a mare who I have had trouble getting in foal with AI this season, so a live cover option here is appealing, and the stallion is located only a few hours away. This is her pedigree, rather fancy: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/kibah+torch . If I were to pull her apart I would say she’s a little short in the leg and not as uphill or elegant as I would like, but has a big powerful back end and is a great mover, good straight legs, big bone. She has had 3 foals, 1 for me and 2 for her owner, all have great temperaments and whilst too young to really know just what they’re capable of, seem to have plenty of jump!

Look forward to hearing your thoughts, thanks in advance.

[vineyridge]

Lovely, lovely old style pedigree with much sport success from his lines. Having Buckpasser so close is pretty darned amazing. Silver Buck was the damsire of a Bromont CCI 3* winner named Downtown Harrison. Horse has all three of the foundation sire lines within five generations which is very promising for breeding and performance success–Buckpasser’s dam comes from the Matchem line by way of War Admiral. and Ambiorix and Tornado come from the Herod line by way of Tourbillon. There is a good bit more Matchem through Discovery mares. Most of the rest are Eclipse line.

Buckpasser is one of the lines that is loved here for his conformation, brain, manners, and sports talent . He’s got about 30 different get who are found in sport horse lines. IMO, he is THE exemplary thoroughbred–and race horse. He had one of the longest strides ever seen on the track.

John Alden traces to Princequillo and through him to St. Simon. And you have Nashua and Bold Ruler by Nasrullah. Back about 1995 or thereabouts, Dr. Peter Birdsall, a Canadian breeding success investigator, wrote an article about the most successful hunter/jumper lines in the US. The three with the most success were Man O’War, sire of War Admiral, Nasrullah, and Princequillo. The Nasrullah/Princequillo cross was one of best nicks in American TB history.

Silver Buck’s dam was by Hail To Reason, by Turn-To, and both are famous here for their jumpers. John Alden was the sire of Alden’s Image who ran Rolex 3 times in the early 1990s when it was a 3*; he also ran the Fair Hill 3* at the same time.

In terms of line breeding, the lines that will be doubled are all excellent for sport. You’ll be adding two more lines to Nasrullah, a line to his 3/4 sibling Royal Charger, another line to Prince Rose, etc. In the mare, the double to Precipitation (Matchem line) will be reinforced by the sire’s Matchem lines.

I’d also add that there is a tremendous amount of Lady Josephine in both pedigrees, which is good.

For dressage, your mare already has a couple of Bay Ronald lines. He’ll add at least another line to Hyperion, and more than a few lines to Teddy.

I love your mare’s pedigree for a sport horse, starting with Brilliant Invader, who may have been the best TB sire for sport of the past 20 or so years. If the horse is good looking and you can see some of his get since he is not young and like them, I wouldn’t be at all hesitant to use him based on his paper.

[somanyhorses]

Thank you so much Viney for that detailed insight and analysis. My interest in this stallion has now increased! It is also great to hear how he will complement my mare on paper. I have a few months before breeding season starts to go and have a look at him in the flesh, and some of his offspring, so I can see whether I think he’ll complement her well on type too. I think he will.

I did some internet searching and found images/footage of Downtown Harrison and Alden’s image, lovely horses.

The fact that this stallion raced 61 times and retired sound at 9 is also impressive and a definite draw card.

I’ll let you know what I decide later in the year!

[vineyridge]

Another thing about Buckpasser–he won at distances from a mile to 2 miles in Grade I races as a 4 yo. FWIW, he is the damsire of Hand In Glove, whose sire was a son of Turn-To (Best Turn). Over here, Buckpasser in racing is considered to have been a great damsire, but in sport, his sons have produced.

Buckaroo was the sire of the Olympic eventer Anderoo and the 4* horse Buckingham Place and damsire of Exponential, a 4*, WEG, and Olympic horse for Jessica Phoenix.

His son Buckfinder is in the damsire line of a current 3* event horse in the US who finished in the top ten at the Fair Hill CIC this spring.

His son Gallipiat was the sire of Shiraz, who completed all 5 Northern Hemisphere 4s with Colleen Rutledge. Dressage was his downfall, and he was a mediocre show jumper, but he was a XC machine–in 17 fei events, he only had one xc penalty, and he never failed to finish. He competed from 2008 to 2015 and was a 4 horse from 2011 to 2015.

His son Franc Coeur was the tail male grandsire of three of Diana Burnett’s eventers, one a two time 4* completer, and the others 3* horses. Two of them definitely had different dams, but I can’t find the dam of the third.

His son, Ask Clarence, was the sire of Ask Away, a 3* horse who also went to the European Championships in 1995 and was second at Rolex in 1994 with Wash Bishop.

His son Pass The Glass was the damsire of Beautiful Crown who seems to have ended up in Australia where he produced a couple of 2* event horses-- Remlap’s Choice had Vain as damsire; Brooklands Brew had Zoffany as damsire. Beautiful Crown’s dam also produced the sire of Thomas Edison, a recent thoroughbred Grand Prix (1.60) jumper with Charlie Jayne in the US.

Another son is the damsire of an FEI PSG dressage horse. BTW, Hand In Glove also competed in dressage AND show jumping before being exported to Brunemail Stud.

His grandson Groovy is damsire to three FEI 1 and 2* event horses. His grandson, Bucksum is damsire of a 2* event horse. His grandson by a different son is in the damline of a 2* event horse.

His son Man in The Moon was exported to Holland and used as an improvement sire for KWPN and produced licensed stallions in at least four European registries–Holstein, Hanover, SWB, & sBs.

His grandson Royal Copper is damsire of a 2* event horse.

His son Buck Island is sire of Dream Dancer who was used by the Swiss Warmblood Registry for breeding. I can’t tell which of the two was exported.

Another son is damsire of a 2* horse.

His son, Settlement Day was the sire of French Buffet, a 1.60 jumper, and approved sire for 4 European registries. (He wasn’t a very good sire, though)

And I found three more Silver Buck grandget who have done 1* and 2* eventing.

And that’s just the sons. Buckpasser’s got far more daughters with sport horse descendants than sons.

Somehow, and I can’t remember how, Traffic Court has ended up in steeplechasers in Europe and in WBs. I do know that Hasty Road has about 12 separate get who have got descendants in FEI level sport. So does his half brother, Traffic Judge. Hasty Road was the sire of Road House, the sire of Bruce Davidson’s 1974 World Champion Irish Cap–among others.

[JJ_sLuckyTrain]

Those of us in the Mid-Atlantic area are used to seeing the second dam of the stallion – Little Bold Sphinx – in pedigrees. A prolific mare and a solid female family. Surely there are some descendants in this region that have transitioned to second careers. I don’t know any personally but maybe someone else will chime in.

[snowrider]

Not a breeder but I used to get a lot of horses off the track to retrain and sell on. That is a fantastic pedigree. I’d breed to or buy a horse sight unseen off that pedigree in a heartbeat. Prince John, Hail to Reason, Tom Fool and Buckpasser are all names I look for for good sized, sound, sane, nice moving horses that will jump. And they’re so close up. Every horse on there must be the last foal of it’s parents or something.

I will say that I had a mare in the late 80s that had tons of Hyperion and she was an awful mover, lol. Jumped the moon though, I mean, amazing athlete. And so smart.

[Texarkana]

OP, that is a lovely pedigree. My own mare had a lovely stakes placed son by Silver Buck who was quite nice and likely would have excelled in sport. And growing up in Maryland racing, I had quite the number of John Alden horses. And with the dam being a full sister to one of the hardest knockin’ horses out there… I love it.

[QUOTE=JJ’sLuckyTrain;8650923]
Those of us in the Mid-Atlantic area are used to seeing the second dam of the stallion – Little Bold Sphinx – in pedigrees. A prolific mare and a solid female family. Surely there are some descendants in this region that have transitioned to second careers. I don’t know any personally but maybe someone else will chime in.[/QUOTE]

Gosh, I loved Little Bold John. I was just a kid when he was running,but what a horse.

Fun fact-- when I was a sophomore in high school, I was given this TB war horse off the track who I didn’t know much about other than that he had been around the circuit for a long time. He was supposed to be a reschool/resell project for me, but I ended up keeping said horse for the rest of his life. When I finally got his complete race record (back in the days they had to fax or mail it to you), in one of his 109 starts, he had defeated Little Bold John in one of LBJ’s last allowance races. Even though I had nothing to do with it, I always liked to brag on that. :sadsmile:

[somanyhorses]

Just an update for anyone interested and for those that gave such great info! I have been in touch with my friend, and sadly, she had to put the stallion down not long ago. Such a shame! After the COTH input from this thread, I was very keen to breed to him if I liked him in the flesh.

She did let me know, however, that she has to move properties soon and has several mares in foal to him, due in a few months, that she will need to sell… hmm… I need another mare like a hole in the head. She’ll let me know bloodlines of the mares at some point.

I do not need more horses. Repeat: I do not need more horses!

[Foxtrot_s]

thanks, Viney - I also am interested in so many of the names you mention
and you fill in so many gaps.

BTW, OP, If you go to TB Heritage there are tons of pictures of many of these old horses going way back. (In case you didn’t go there yet).

I look back and often find similarities coming down the generations to my own horses.

When I see Buckpasser and Turn-To (they often appear in the same pedigree) my ears prick up. And I loved Irish Cap since he was so similar to my own event horse, being loose limbed and somewhat rangy.

[SPRINGBORO]

I echo everyone’s opinion about the Buckpasser sires! Having owned mares by Buckaroo, Silver Buck, and Norcliffe, I can state that they are lovely minded and well built. My Silver Buck mare was back at the knee significantly, however.

And his dam is a full sister to Little Bold John, who was an iron horse! More than 100 starts, and 25 stakes victories!

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/184011/little-bold-john-succumbs-to-colic-at-21

[camohn]

I love Silver Buck. Not a bad thing to say there. Talent and brains. Further back
On his side Hail to Reason can throw difficult tempered horses, so that is in the woodpile. HTR isn’t one I would line breed at any rate.
Speak John: good jumper line
Bold Ruler: talented but quirky.

A shame he passed. You don’t see SB up that close anymore.

[somanyhorses]

Thanks everyone for the continued input.

My friend has given me the names/breeding of the mares who “might” be in foal to this stallion, they are very cheap, ie less than meat money, as they are aged and she has to sell her property and wants to find good homes. I am really reluctant to take on more horses at the moment as we have 25 at present with 3 foals due this spring. However, I might have a look at these mares at some point and see if any really capture my attention in the flesh, and if they do, pay to get the vet to confirm whether they are indeed in foal to this lovely, now passed stallion. They were running with the stallion, so due dates would be a guess at best, but within the next six months. The thought of an older mare with an unknown due date coming into my care does not fill me with joy, but I find myself continuing to think about these old girls and trying to work out when I can schedule a visit to check them out. She has to move them on by August.

So, thoughts on these mares and how their lines would compliment those of the stallion?

Mare 1, I recognise and like a lot of her breeding. Rising 16: http://www.racingaustralia.horse/FreeServices/PedigreeReport.aspx?RefNo=6125047 Apparently she has produced two winners of over $250,000 each, and she herself raced 25 times and was a winner.

Mare 2, awful name! Again, some good lines here, Bletchingly is popular in Australia, and another iron horse with over 60 races herself. Rising 17: http://www.racingaustralia.horse/FreeServices/PedigreeReport.aspx?RefNo=6054247

Mare 3, also some nice stuff here in the pedigree, and a winner herself with 39 races. Rising 17: http://www.racingaustralia.horse/FreeServices/PedigreeReport.aspx?RefNo=6059094

Thanks in advance!

[vineyridge]

I rather like them all. Of the three my favorite would be #2 for a number of reasons. Seeking The Gold is the tail male grandsire of Pirate, Meghan O’Donoghue’s horse who has run and finished the Rolex 4* 3 times since 2014. Seeking the Gold’s dam is Buckpasser, so you’d have relatively close line breeding to him. There are all three of the foundation sires on the first page with My Babu and Relic. There is enough Bay Ronald that the odds of passing on movement should be quite good.

Then Secret Saving’s dam is a daughter of Damascus, who is famous here for having been in the pedigrees of some GP jumpers. A son, Napur, show jumped internationally for the US back in the day. (Damascus was also one of the best race horses and sires of his era). He’s a line that all American eventers like a LOT, and he’s better through his daughters. A son of his was Coconut Grove’s damsire, and CG was approved in virtually every WB registry in the world. Damacus is a very reliable line for jumping. Not so fond of Reviewer, because he tended to throw weak bones, but Reviewer is royally bred, and Resolver is from a Swaps dam. I personally love to see Swaps in a sport horse pedigree in part because his dam was by Beau Pere who was a son of Son-In-Law and whose dam was as royally bred as it’s possible to be. Beau Pere ties in well with all the Phalaris horses through the damsire. By a son of Hyperion, Swaps was an iron and very fast horse. He’s a very good sport horse line with descendants from multiple get who have competed at the FEI level. Secret Savings’ tail female is to Misty Morn, a daughter of Grey Flight, an American Blue Hen mare whose damsire was the ancient but wonderful Ariel. This is jumping blood from way back and a line that is cherished in America by sport TB lovers (Grey Flight, since very few know about Ariel).

Then we get to the Dam. The best event horse produced by a Bletchingly son (Private Thoughts) was Fairdinkum, a 4* horse with Phillip Dutton. Kenny’s Best Pal has produced some FEI horses in Australia. But Biscay and Star Kingdom are wonderful. IIRC, there was an International Games dressage horse for Australia with Star Kingdom as sire or damsire, but I cannot remember the name. Anyway, these are very useful lines in any pedigree. Bletchingly’s damsire was Relic, and that is one of the most proved TB lines for sport in the whole world. He’s found in chasers, event horses, jumpers and dressage horses. He’s made it into WB breeding. He’s like finding Christmas candy in a pedigree. He ties in well with Buckpasser because they share Man O’War as grand and great sire. IMO, the more MOW, the better for sport.

But that is not the best part of this pedigree. The tail female lines are.
Navajo Princess is the dam of Dancing Brave, who was the sire of Ghareeb, a very heavily used TB sire for eventing in Ireland, with a rather large number of eventing ISHs to his credit. He only died in the past couple of years, but his most famous was probably Mark Kyle’s Olympic event horse Coolio. She was also the dam of Brave Hearted, who is the dam sire of Werner Geven’s current 3* horse Vilas County (he started Rolex last year but didn’t finish.) AND she was the dam of Commander in Chief, who sired an FEI GP level dressage horse in in Japan named Pace (former name J K Chief). He wasn’t very good, but still . . .

What I see in this mare that is particularly appealing is soundness from multiple sources. She seems to be Emirates Park bred for at least two generations, thus the Arabic name. That’s owned by a fellow from Dubai named Nasser Lootah.

The other two have some nice lines, and Danehill does derive from a Buckpasser granddaughter, but #2 speaks to me of sport. I’ll see what I can dig up on the other two.

[camohn]

The owner likes Mr Prospector mares. They are all Mr P breds!

Mare 1: on top danehill would double up the Buckpasser although danehill does not look like BP for type/ he’s more compact/ slightly downhill in build. The Ribot on top crossed with the deceased stallions Hail To
Reason isn’t a good recipe for easy temperament but they maybe far enough back to matter less. I like the damside better : raise a native ( good jump,and not line bred . Line breeding RAN leads to soundness issues), and the old classics Never Bend and Mill Reef.

2. seeking the gold is one of Mr. P’s better sons. Has a laundry list of good Sporthorse types: Buckpasser again, my babu, , bold ruler, swaps, star kingdom, caps and bells. The 2 in there that are a mixed bag are sunnys halo by halo and sir Gaylord . Sir Gaylord throws plenty of talent, but also the Turn To temper . halo by hail to reason had that turn to temper in spades .i have met some sunnys halo offspring. Some nice, some very difficult. About 50/ 50 split. Adding the sire in question gives you a third cross to hail to reason. I would expect that to give you talented and temperamental.

3)raise a native is the closest up front from Mr p here… Good jump
And oft crooked right foreleg,so look at the legs. Nasrullah x 2 and Hyperion is on the page at all.

My choice for likely talent would be 2, 1 then 3 with consideration that temper might be an issue with number 2

[SPRINGBORO]

I really like the old Geiger Counter mare and her pedigree page is great! That said, I can’t find much in her production and she is a 1999.

And… the Flowered Silk mare! Her dam is 1/2 to Dancing Brave and Jolypha!

[SPRINGBORO]

dammit, Viney has such better thought out answers than I do! Well done!

[gumtree]

[B]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8650857]
Another thing about Buckpasser–he won at distances from a mile to 2 miles in Grade I races as a 4 yo./QUOTE]
[/B]
For the sake of accuracy and so the many people who read what we write as facts that will linger on the internet long after will be correctly informed. I felt it necessary to point out the following.

Buckpasser did not win any Grade 1 races. He didn’t wan any “Graded” stakes races. He was born in 1963 the the “Grading” of important stakes races was not implemented until 1974.

Though most of important stakes races he did win were awarded Grade 1 status when the system was implimented in 74. But the designation of Grade 1 or 2 or 3 stakes status is not permanent

Each year the Graded Stakes Committee meets and reviews the over all “quality” of each graded and some non graded races. The “caliber” of the horses running in it and the prize money offered. If a graded stakes race fall out of “favor” and the quality of the horses running in it drops for a couple of years it will most likely be demoted. Conversely there are races that are upgraded.

Just wanted to point out historical facts. Hope this won’t sidetrack the thread.

[vineyridge]

Can we agree that Buckpasser was one of , if not the, the best race horses in America when he did race, and that he raced in the top races (except the Triple Crown races) against the best America had to offer at the time? And that the vast majority of races that he ran in and won are Graded Stakes today if they still exist?

[somanyhorses]

You guys are awesome, thank you. May I also politely accuse you of being enablers by saying so many positive things about these pedigrees?

Sounds as though they are all worth a look, due to work commitments I can’t get down there until late July at the earliest, by which time they may have made their way to new homes, but we’ll see how it all unfolds. If I do get to see them all I’ll try to get photos for anyone who’s interested in how they line up in the flesh vs how you’d expect them to given their pedigrees.

I did a bit of googling and found this photo of Mare 2’s father, Secret Savings: https://form.virtualformguide.com/view-stallion.html?stallion=Secret%20Savings
What a magnificent animal - hard not to like that conformation for sport! He is almost identical in type to one of my current eventers, unsurprisingly they are related: http://racingaustralia.horse/FreeServices/PedigreeReport.aspx?RefNo=8010014 , with the Mr P/Buckpasser cross on the sire line. My guy is a freakishly talented jumper, excellent mover, with a busy mind and somewhat explosive nature. Apparently most horses by Umatilla (his sire) are sensible, so his “idiosyncracies” could be from the dam line.

Secret Savings also has at least 2 CIC/CCI* eventing offspring that I could find, and is the damsire of a 2* horse.

I couldn’t find a photo of Geiger Counter but actually think I saw him in the flesh in 1996 when, as a teenager, I was lucky enough to go on a stud trip to Arrowfield, where he stood at the time. I remember being given their stud stallion brochure at the time and probably still have it (I’m a bit of a hoarder with those things!) at my parent’s house… which is 6 hours from me! From memory he was a compact, solid, slightly downhill type, but I could be confusing him with another.

I think any of these mares, crossed with the deceased stallion, would be likely to produce a seriously tough sound horse, given that they all raced successfully and the stallion raced till aged 9. Mare 2’s career spanned nearly 5 years. I also do believe, as a general observation, that horses need to have a fairly good temperament and work ethic to cope with a long career and want to win.

All very interesting, we’ll see how it unfolds.

[camohn]

SMH:your " explosive " horse has two crosses to Turn To… The one I was saying to watch out for crossing too much due to difficult temperament ( wink) .