US Bred vs German bred - foals/unstarted horses

[SaddleFitterVA]

I only buy a horse every 6-8 years, and I usually buy yearlings, because they have been more affordable, I have a farm, I like the process, I keep them for life, etc.

Whew are American prices in the stratosphere! 20K and up for yearlings is looking pretty common.

Then I go to the Hanoverian Auction history prices for 2023, and foals are selling less than half. Yes, there is the “star” of the show often, which might approach the asking prices for all the foals here, and I’m seeing why one might just head to Europe on a shopping trip. My instructor was suggesting that the prices are too steep for a complete unknown.

Even with the cost of import, it is looking like you can get more bang for your buck in Europe.

Who has imported foals/yearlings?

[Willesdon]

Breeding is a numbers game. One of the best breeders in Europe is Paul Schockemohle and he has 3000 mares on his farm. The more stock available, the greater the price range.

[blue_heron]

1. Horses are a lot more part of the European, but especially German, “culture” than it is in the US. Horses bred for sport are more common there and there’s a much bigger industry around breeding and starting them there. There’s a lot of big studs like Schockemole mentioned above where the horses are livestock-- not that they aren’t cared for or loved, but they’re not pets.

2. We’re finally starting to talk about how the Europeans aren’t selling their best horses to the US. Of course there’s lots of people who import healthy, safe horses who have long careers. There’s also lots of people who have imported lame horses with severe behavioral issues or other undisclosed issues.

[Montanas_Girl]

@blue_heron

We’re finally starting to talk about how the Europeans aren’t selling their best horses to the US.

“We” have been taking about this as least as long as I’ve been a COTH member, which is around 24 years now.

[blue_heron]

I meant the horse community as a whole. Especially on Facebook. CotH has been ahead of the game on this and many other things.

[Montanas_Girl]

I mean, I’m an Arabian working western breeder with a history in the hunters who is fully aware of this so…how much of a secret could it possibly be?

[blue_heron]

Not sure why you’re so pressed about this. Many people in dressage land wanted nothing to do with US bred horses until the last 5 years. It was import from Europe or nothing. Sport horse breeding in the US has gotten much better and much more popular recently. It’s a chicken or the egg scenario.

[Montanas_Girl]

“Pressed”? I’m literally just having a conversation. You’re the one who seems to be upset. If anything, I’m flummoxed by the idea that anyone hadn’t realized until now that the Europeans haven’t been selling their best horses overseas over the past several decades.

[Arlomine]

Um… I am 61 years old and when I was in high school in the Midwest, my trainer told me that the Germans would never release their top horses to America. So I think this idea has been around for quite a while. At that time, if you wanted a really nice dressage horse, the only place to get it on this continent essentially was Genn’s in Canada.

[Arlomine]

To the OP, what price range are you feeling would be acceptable for you in this country?

[SusanO]

Yes I have read for years that the Germans would not sell their top horses to the US. But who needs a “top horse” unless you are Adrienne Lyle or somebody else trying to make the team. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of very nice horses that maybe are not international quality horses. And like - who needs an international level horse or who can ride one? Not me, even in my younger years.

As someone said, due to the numbers being bred, you might find something nicer in Europe. To me, looking at videos and advertisements, it seems the greatest difference is in the quality of training. But you do see the products of mare lines that are more developed than in this country. But there are some very nice foals being produced here too, more than in the past.

On the down side is the cost of importation. And doing business with someone you can trust.

[showy]

• Europe is the breeding hub of the world. Much higher access to the top stallions. We have to import a lot of semen

• Easier to get fresh cooled compared to frozen

• easier to get mares pregnant off fresh cooled compared to frozen (less straws, fewer cycles)

• general horse keeping is cheaper so less cost in the foal before it’s on the ground

• Europe does such a volume of horses. There are many many big stud places doing hundreds a year. US (unless it’s spy coast) is made up of smaller breeders do less than 10 a year. So much lower possibility of breeding a great one and even making money

• Between breeding expenses, vet and keeping the mare for a year (about 10k) and then keeping the baby for a year (about 5-8k) yes, 10k is too cheap for US breeders to make any money off yearlings IF it’s a true sport horse and not a backyard type

[va2txrider]

I just added up how much I have in my 8 month old weanling, including keeping the mare while pregnant, and came in around $15,000 (and that did not include some additional expenditures or my labor); mare caught first time frozen, and no extraordinary vet expenditures. Vet, feed, and hay have all gone up. I was shocked! So a $20,000 yearling is not surprising.

[omare]

2023 STALLIONS GUIDE: Recognising success

just as an example of the scope of the sport horse breeding program for only one registry --2022, over 8,000 mares and 7,000 Hanoverian foals , (also notes 80,000 licensed riders in Germany.)

[CanteringCarrot]

I lived in Germany for many years and horse keeping is cheaper there. So I think that definitely plays into the pricing, but some areas of the US aren’t too far from some areas of Germany price wise when it comes to horse keeping. The US has become quite pricey though and is just more expensive in some areas. Prices are rising across the globe though. When it comes to Germany, funding and culture when it comes to Equestrian sport is also quite different from the US. So that has to be considered too. I’m not saying it’s “better” but it is different.

My main issue with some US breeders is that they heavily rely on the stallion and don’t
put so much stock in the mare. When I was chatting with a breeder about what I was seeing in Germany vs the US and why I opted to import at the time, she said it’s just harder to get the mares over here and the import costs are higher. Which is fair. I think the key there, IMO, is importing mares that are less than 2 years old (costs are lower), but then they’re not “proven” yet and there is a risk.

Interestingly, in my preferred breed, the PRE, the mares are traditionally not used as riding horses. Yet many breeders still produce quality out of unridden mares. They do still have certain breed standards though.

When I was shopping for a PRE in the US the quality and type was just not there or was there but the price would be higher than buying, vetting, and importing one. So it just made sense to import. For whatever reason I was just not seeing the quality in the US. It might have been there, but I couldn’t find it. So there’s that too.

It may be worth the extra money to support a US breeder and also not have to deal with the risk of importing (things can really go wrong there). So that may be appealing to some, and I can understand that completely.

When it comes down to it, I am going to support a breeder that is producing quality horses consistently and overall has a good program. I also love the way the horses are kept at my horses breeder. I agree with how she does things on the whole, so I’m happy to give her my money.

There is one breeder I have my eye on in the US and I think they’ve got a great thing going. I would possibly pay more for one of her horses instead of importing. Interestingly, they’re (the people) not from the US originally, and are from Europe. They’ve imported much of their breeding stock. So heavy European influences there. Makes sense though since it is a breed that originated in Europe.

Ultimately, people are going to go where they can get the best bang for their buck. Which makes sense. Sure some will choose a horse in the US since it might be easier to get to, less risk in respect to importation, and you have other factors such as language, culture, and vettings. However, you can go to Germany and view more horses but cover less ground. As in there is a larger concentration in a smaller area.

The other thing is that many people love to say that their horse is imported or that they had to import semen. I guess it just sounds posh? I don’t know, but it is a “thing” in some cases. I do feel like it was sort of “trending” at one point. Or you needed an import to be competitive (I don’t agree).

Edited to add: Competing is soo much cheaper in Germany so it’s also more economical to “prove” your horse, so to speak. It also is structured a bit differently. In addition to that you have riders, instructors, breeders, and barn owners with actual credentials, formal education, and licenses. Anyone can call themselves whatever in the US and do whatever, basically. So two different systems and it’s usually cheaper to produce a horse in Germany and most of Europe and that’s the bottom line.

[SaddleFitterVA]

Great article! Thanks for sharing.

[SaddleFitterVA]

Arlomine - I do understand the supply and demand economics. And it seems that horses are one of the post-covid luxury items that are keeping higher prices in the US.

I look in my region, mid-Atlantic and let’s say within 6-8 hours drive, because if I head too far away, I’m into travel/transportation costs, so that tips the shopping trip in favor of turning it into a fun vacation to somewhere in Europe.

Weanlings to 1 - for the vast majority of bloodlines, 10K and under
Yearling to 2 - 10-15K
2-3, 20K

Most of the foals at the Verband foal auction sold under 10K Euros.

Because many of the professionals I work with say at the $20-25K range, I’m better off just looking at started horses. Then I go study the published auction prices in Germany and I’m thinking even those prices are kinda high. I doubt that all of these US Bred foals would make it to “elite” auctions. But I have lower transportation costs and lower complication.

I don’t need the top horses, I probably cannot ride the top horses! I’m a good rider, but I’m also small, in my 50s, and not getting younger.

I’m not in a rush, which is why I mostly buy yearlings. And I enjoy having a youngster around to slowly develop.

But, I’m going to use this spring to try horses, started horses. I’ll be working with known professionals who won’t think I am tire kicking and understand my goals.

Maybe a shopping trip for a started horse needs to be in my plans in a year, unless a good deal comes along.

[va2txrider]

With prices going up for everything, I just don’t see how weanling - 1 yr can be done for $10k anymore. Vet, farrier, hay, grain … they’ve all gone up. So unless someone owns their own stallion and is doing live cover/pasture breeding, and has so much pasture they don’t need to feed, does their own shots, etc… the breeder won’t be able to keep the price down. The cost of producing foals in the US has risen and so will the prices for these foals if breeders want to break even.

[Warmblood1]

The auction prices have been quite low here recently. Painfully low for a lot of breeders in EU. Many breeders in EU are leaving horses and breeding because of their own struggles - a large one being adequate labor. However, import prices have continued to rise since COVID. A friend of mine recently spent about $17k importing her horse.

Meanwhile, prices in the US have increased due to the increase costs of fertilizer, diesel, etc. My local region was hit very hard and last year by Spring time, you couldn’t find hay within a 200 mile radius. Truly awful.

Maybe Germany isn’t selling their Olympic hopefuls but they have plenty of high quality breeding stock they are willing to sell.

I do agree that if you are looking for PREs, then you will find the best stock overseas. You can find quality WBs in the US, however.

I personally would much rather avoid the importation process if buying. Not a jumper person but for dressage at least, w there are plenty of good lines and horses here in the states or Canada.

[CanteringCarrot]

On an Iberian related note, you can find decent PRE’s down in Mexico and there are a fair amount of Lusitano breeders in Brazil. So there are those options as well.

I will say that when I imported my last one from Europe it was a bit nerve wracking. Especially because I wanted to import my horse that I had for 5 years in Germany when I moved to the US, but he tested positive for Piroplasmosis. You cannot import a Piro positive horse, and it is not something that could simply be removed from his system. It’s very common amongst Iberians, especially when they come from Spain or Portugal. My horse had no symptoms, and over there no one really cares, but the US won’t allow it.

I imported a 1.5 year old in October of 2022 and it cost me roughly 12.5k I picked him up directly from quarantine myself and brought him home in my own truck and trailer.

I still see people claiming they’ve just imported for $10k or sometimes $9k and I don’t know how they’re doing it, or if they are not adding everything up to a combined total, even though some are saying “total.”

So that $10k yearling could turn into a $25k expense. So you’ve got to get the purchase price right and import costs in order to come out ahead/better than you would if you bought within the US.