USEA records and price question

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=lovemytbs;7496619]
Yes, I agree Gr8ful-I’m not talking about the occasional 20 penalty, I’m talking about several, and some over 80 in one event. To me, that indicates a problem![/QUOTE]

It may indicate there WAS a problem but not that there still is. What matters more is how the horse goes now and with you.

I have a nice mare who has done a 1*…with her teenage lessor…they got eliminated at novice. A large part of that was her rider…and that her feet were sore. I got her home, got her healthy and she cruised around Training level again. But I wouldn’t market her as a packer xc because she does need to be ridden. She’s a packer in the ring though…dead easy to ride.

My point…the record only tells part of the issue. A green horse can have issues in the start of their career and then get the game and be good. A good horse can be ridden so poorly that it has a spotty record.

So to me, you have to try a horse and see if you click. The record is part of the story.

[vineyridge]

I very much agree with this. I looked up a stallion that I was considering (and still am) who did not have a stellar eventing record. But he’d always been with the same rider, and his record was consistent with records of her other horses.

[QUOTE=yellowbritches;7497384]
Are you considering the riders when looking? Are the stops with a name you don’t refinish, like maybe an ammy owner or kid? Possibly a working student? Or is it the BNT? When I was shopping and saw issues, I always considered the rider. If it was someone I was unfamiliar with, I looked up THEIR record to see if I saw a pattern on other horses (is it just THIS horse with bad dressage scores/multiple rails/xc stops, or is their a pattern with other horses? That can say a lot.[/QUOTE]

[rothmpp]

[QUOTE=yellowbritches;7497384]
Are you considering the riders when looking? Are the stops with a name you don’t refinish, like maybe an ammy owner or kid? Possibly a working student? Or is it the BNT? When I was shopping and saw issues, I always considered the rider. If it was someone I was unfamiliar with, I looked up THEIR record to see if I saw a pattern on other horses (is it just THIS horse with bad dressage scores/multiple rails/xc stops, or is their a pattern with other horses? That can say a lot.[/QUOTE]

Definitely agree with this - which is one of the reasons I wish some would not immediately make their judgement on a sale horse based on online scores. Certainly can let you know if the horse has competed at the advertised level, for sure, but there is often a whole other story behind the scores, either good or bad. Not an eventer, but my centerline scores definitely do not tell the story for my horse. Some super scores at 3rd & 4th, but the average is not great - and that is my fault, not indicative of the horse’s talent. I made him up myself from barely broke, to ready to go PSG this season in 5 years. But I had never shown above first level before this horse, so errors are bound to occur. I can’t afford to show a ton, so a couple of less than stellar scores can really kill the overall average.

[yellowbritches]

Uhh…I want to apologize for my post and it’s odd autocorrect mishaps. My “refinish” I meant “recognize.” That’s what I get for posting on my phone at lunch…

[eponacowgirl]

What viney said… start looking for nice PC horse instead of an event horse with a trainer.

[RoundTheBend]

Wow you would find a decent horse meeting your description in the Uk for £5-10k easily!! & they’re not selling!

[Jealoushe]

I agree…I would be majorly turned off a horse that had stops on its record. I think I have had under 5 penalties on cc in the 19 years I have been eventing. I think 10-20k is a bit much for a spotty record.

Too bad you weren’t closer, Ontario has many of these gems. I know of some here right now!

[IronwoodFarm]

I am not going to quarrel about how people advertise their sale horses. What some people call a packer or an ammy friendly horse does not meet my definition of the same. For the OP, the horse’s XC record is of criticial importance. For me, it would depend as there are plenty of horses with clean XC records that I would never want to ride. I think the bigger problem is that the OP is looking in an expensive area and with some higher end trainers. It’s going to be hard to find something in her price range because half the world seems to want the magical packer horse.

[subk]

[QUOTE=yellowbritches;7497384]
Are you considering the riders when looking? Are the stops with a name you don’t refinish, like maybe an ammy owner or kid? Possibly a working student? Or is it the BNT?[/QUOTE]
My definition of a packer IS a horse being ridden by an ammy owner or a kid and is still clean. I would NEVER even look at something that is suppose to pack that is being ridden by a BNT not just because a BNT would do a better job handling a tough spot, but because a packer is suppose to perform without much help the whole round. You just don’t see BNTs riding horses at the lower levels without micromanaging them.

Personally, when I hear of someone buying a horse out of Area II I wonder why they don’t just walk around with the word “SUCKER” written on their foreheads.

[Janet]

Supply and demand determine price. Area II has a lot more Eventing riders, and thus more demand, than many other places. Looking at THOSE sources, 10K + for a BN horse is about what I would expect.

True “packers” are usually sold by word of mouth, often before the owner has even started marketing. e.g., “We are probably going to have to sell Daisy when Judy goes off to college(or when the divorce is final, or because I had to take a pay cut)” “I know someone who might be interested, can I give her your phone number.”

I would guess that MOST horses competing at Beginner Novice are EITHER

A- Green-to-eventing horses (where a few refusals are to be expected as the horse encounters new questions) - they move up after a season unless there are problems. An experienced rider is not likely to keep a horse at BN very long.

B-Green-to-eventing riders (where a few refusals are to be expected as the rider learns how to properly RIDE the new questions)-they move up after a season unless there are problems. These riders may stay at BN for a while, but they may continue to have a spotty record

Only a minority of the BN competitors stay there long enogh, ridden by good enough riders, to BECOME “packers with a clean record”. As noted above, those ones tend to be sold as soon as the owner talks about selling, before actually marketing the horse.

Horses that have been successful at Novice or Training, and would probably be “packers” at BN tend to be marketed, and priced, as Nov or Training horses.

There is a tradeoff between time and money. If you don’t want to spend the price for horses that are being actively marketed in Area II, you need to spend the time to EITHER

a-Travel to an area where there is less demand, thus a bigger supply of suitable horses at lower prices
or
b-Develop “word of mouth” contacts in the local lower level eventing/Pony Club community so you HEAR that “the Smiths may be selling Daisy in the fall”.

[soloudinhere]

I think you also have to consider the time of year of the event and the area. Where I am, which is in horse-crazy northeast, there is just not a lot of cross country schooling. The places that do allow it only allow it on specific days and times. I have a job and a life, so I can’t always get to those 4 days they allow.

So my horse may be seeing a question for the first time at an event, but what are you going to do? You can approximate a question but the horse hasn’t seen THAT ditch, or THAT water, or THAT dog. Broke horses don’t get broke by not making mistakes and having runouts.

Of course, I just bought a cheap former cow pony so I don’t even know if my horse jumps or not. However I’m hoping to make him up into the kind of horse you’re looking for and if I did so, my investment in him to the point of having a USEA record means I’m not going to unload him for $5k.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=subk;7498279]

Personally, when I hear of someone buying a horse out of Area II I wonder why they don’t just walk around with the word “SUCKER” written on their foreheads.[/QUOTE]

Not really though…Good horses can be found that are priced correctly in this area…but you do need to know your stuff. Most horses do sell by word of mouth. You go to clinics and meet people…they call you if they have a nice horse to sell and ask if you know anyone looking. Hell…most don’t ever make it on a web site or in an ad. And one person’s packer may not suit another person…so you have to be honest as to what you want and what you can ride.

I love it when people think I should sell them my nice young horse who is fancy on the flat, jumps with a lot of scope, over 16H and under the age of 6 for less than 10K because it has only done 2 novice events. They want a proven packer who can go up the levels, be competitive and is young and pretty…that is going to be expensive no matter where you are. But your older horse, smaller horse, harder to ride on the flat mare…etc. Those may be more affordable.

And I agree…if you are looking for a BN/Novice horse…I’d be looking at the pony club market. The nice alrounder. But a nice safe and SOUND horse can be found, even in area II for under 10K…but not if what you are looking for is young, fancy and will go up the levels.

[subk]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7498344]
Not really though…Good horses can be found that are priced correctly in this area…but you do need to know your stuff. [/QUOTE]
I’m sure they are available, I’ve just never met anyone that found one and brought it here.

My first words of advice to someone looking to buy: don’t look in area ii.

[lovemytbs]

Defintely just want safe and sound, not fancy. This discussion has helped a great deal. I have reached out to many local-ish contacts and have begun looking at unrec event scores and am not relying heavily on the USEA ones as many just dont want to spend the money to compete recognized (or so I am finding). I am hopeful that I will find something. Am also expanding my search to include green-ish horses who have at least been out and about a bit that are quiet. Thank you all for the PM’s of encouragement, too!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=subk;7498542]
I’m sure they are available, I’ve just never met anyone that found one and brought it here.

My first words of advice to someone looking to buy: don’t look in area ii.[/QUOTE]

I’m not surprised…because they often sell to people they know and who are located here. Honestly…it is a supply and demand issue. There is a both a decent supply and a decent demand in this area. We have a huge market…there are a LOT of very good ammy riders and pony club kids. People whose horses do double duties…fox hunting, going to local shows and lower level eventing. I’ve never NOT bought in Area II…and I have not spent too much. Granted…I have bought most green and/or unstarted. But I’ve also bought a going training level horse for less than 15K (5 year old, 16.1 hand mare). But I knew the people selling her–only horse that I have ever bought who had any sort of competition record. She wasn’t a packer but still a nice horse who moved up to Prelim a year later.

We also have a LOT of unrecognized schooling shows. Honestly, you can easily put miles on a horse up through training level and never go to a USEA sanctioned event. So because of that…there are many “packers” at even novice who have never shown in a USEA event. But unless you know people, you may not find them. I will rarely go to a USEA event until my horse is about ready for training…there is a whole circuit in this area of really decent schooling HTs. Many are run over the same courses as the USEA sanctioned event…hell, one is even run on the same weekend (sactioned event on Saturday, unrecognized through Training on Sunday). We are extremely lucky in that respect…but also, it is because there is enough demand around here to support it.

[Janet]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7498577]
I’m not surprised…because they often sell to people they know and who are located here.[/QUOTE] Yep. Of the 4 horses in my barn, only one was ever advertised.

I have bought several (for VERY reasonable prices) where someone called ME and said “Do you know anybody who might be interested in …”

Hard to do if you are not IN Area II, and do not know a lot of people.

[scubed]

I like to make my own, but after a couple of experiences with horses who bizarrely hated xc, I now tend to look at those with at least a bit of experience. I got my current boy with a great start by a pro (less than a month off the track though) and he has been a “packer” from day 1 - which is to say he is quiet, willing, can take a joke, doesn’t hold a grudge and is easy to sit on. We are occassionally in the lower ribbons at this point. He has had stops and was eliminated at his first training level (mostly because I was too sick to help him at all and it was tougher than expected for an early season event). Now, he is a training packer (2 years later) and ready to move up to prelim as soon as I get my act together.

Horse before that, ready to go out BN the day I bought him. Was easy to bring along and sold to a kid to pack her around BN/N when I fell in love with the one I’m riding now.

Both bought in area II for under $7000. They are out there, but sometimes the just well-started without a show record is a much better deal. No record to raise price if ridden by pro (who is just as happy for them to move on at the lower price before they get hurt or cost a lot in entries, etc) and limited opportunity for less skilled or different issues than I have ammies to put the “wrong” buttons on.

[AwesomeDiscover09]

I have a horse that is a training level packer! He has one stop at BN but it was because I went by my fence and had to go back to it. And a stop at Prelim because he slid into it and that was it. But it shows up as stops. If you find a horse you like you should contact the owner and see what happened at those events. It might not be what you think. And as for price I got an amazing OTTB for 2,500. And never had a stop. And still has a clean record. I won 3 out of 4 events with him last year. So they are out there. Just have to keep looking.

[Ajierene]

I concur with checking the rider’s scores. I have known a few horses for sale who’s record did not look stellar. When you looked at the rider (who was trying to be a pro), there was the same less than stellar rides from all horses.

Even so, I would be leery of a horse with a lot of penalty points at BN or Novice.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=subk;7498542]
I’m sure they are available, I’ve just never met anyone that found one and brought it here.

My first words of advice to someone looking to buy: don’t look in area ii.[/QUOTE]

Interesting, given that people fly in here regularly to shop for horses!