It’s called sarcasm, or facetiousness
3 Likes
What do you think will happen if they do? I mean “legit” can reasonably only mean “drugs permitted under the rules” so who cares if they add that panel in? So you have bute. It’s allowed.
However if you read the article, one of the key points you would have picked up is that due to the variable rate of hair growth in horses they stated they really can’t accurately determine the time frame the drug was present/withdrawn… ergo they are only testing for drugs that have no reason to be present in a horse that is still alive.
2 Likes
Not that it doesn’t happen a lot already, but who wants to bet that the new M.O. will be for horses to switch hands/possession every 3-6 months so every single person involved with the horse can point at someone else?
1 Like
Why would that be a problem?
Testing for permitted substances is nothing new.
That was part of the basis for restricting dexamethasone use–they tested samples and found that it was being used way too frequently for it to reasonably be there for true medically indicated reasons.
IIRC, a similar situation was part of the ban on altrenogest in stallions and geldings.
8 Likes
Here’s my question. What poor horses were used as test dummies until the BNT got the formula just right for their uber expensive A/O or derby horse??
4 Likes
The pharmacokinetics of barbiturates are pretty well documented.
There are numerous published references on dosage.
6 Likes
I know it’s going to cause a lot of pearl clutching but a super low dose of ace or sedivet and this all goes away
7 Likes
Like putting gasoline in the waters so the horses can’t drink. Putting a TV or radio by the stall blaring so the horses can’t sleep. It’s just gross.
5 Likes
The FEI does this and riders were being fined for banned substances (Metabolites) that occurred naturally in hay that was approved by the show. I think it’s due to the sensitives of the instruments used for testing.
If these tests do target banned substances, then I’m all for it.
1 Like
So, if I may geek out here since no one else wants to listen to this:
If you are at all involved in the breeding world in circles of people breeding jumpers for top level sport in europe, it’s always “more blood” - the top level jumpers of 30 years ago would not be competitive today (I’m told, I am no high level jumper expert) and the breeders of the best jumping horses that are also the pool from which we are buying top hunters are breeding for less rideability and more sharpness and quickness.
See also: I think about half the 3’ greens at a top level show would have been THE WINNER 20 years ago, which makes sense, the breeding of jumping horses has improved the sensitivity and jumping technique.
With that said, these top jumpers pedigrees are now more divergent from the temperament that you want for a hunter, so you have hotter horses that jump like absolute freaks, and the winner is the person who can contain that stick of dynamite. I don’t think it’s any coincidence that as the breeding direction of jumping horses has gone toward a hotter and more reactive animal that we have horses in the hunter ring that jump with a more reactive style and are getting more insane drugs to get them able to do the job. See also: the average bitting setup on top jumpers today versus 30 years ago.
13 Likes
Agree that heavier warmblood types are now in favor of more blood but one thing I noticed at the Paris games in SJ was many top riders were going in only snaffles or pelham’s or simple hackamore. People who take the time to develop and train and condition an animal–even a hotter type–do not need to rely on crazy bitting or drugs to get results. TIME and EFFORT go a long way to rideable and pleasant animals. Some photos from Paris for illustration.
4 Likes
I actually disagree with this. I think quality has gone very noticeably downhill in the hunter ring. I don’t often see a full package with the canter and hind end to go with a round jump and good front end.
The breeding, I do agree. A lot of hunters are dressage bred too, but those are always hotter types.
1 Like
This part I agree with.
It’s not an entirely new problem. Once we more or less lost our US hunter breeders and started relying predominantly on European imports and matings to top jumpers, we ended up with very different hunter horses.
A lot of those to jumper stallions are tricky rides. And Europeans aren’t breeding those old-style heavy deadheads anymore that thrived when cast off to hunterland.
5 Likes
Usef does the same thing (test for metabolites). The “hay” issue (as told to me by the VD) was an instance of a certain drug metabolite showing up on testing. It was a drug typically used for cardiovascular issues in dogs, which, as it happened, their dog happened to be on. Guess what dogs do on a pile of hay? But that could have just as easily been USEF. Or neither. It all depends if they test for it.
But it was banned substance and the horse did test positive, that wasn’t debated so price money and placing were forfeited. It was just entirely unintentional so there was consideration on the penalty but I’m sure it wasn’t cheap to go through the process. Which scares all of us who compete at FEI shows. I used to use voltaren on my right hand. Not anymore. The FEI won’t give a w/d timeframe for that drug in horses so it’s not worth it (they do give timeframe on some). I don’t know how long I could transmit it through touch or how long it would test in the pony so it’s entirely not worth it. But it wasn’t until we were told about these unintentional positives that it occurred to me it might be an issue.
1 Like
Naturally, calling pentobarbital “euthanasia solution” provokes all the outrage, but it’s really just a sedative/hypnotic that has been commonly used in both human and veterinary medicine for plenty of other reasons. I certainly wouldn’t want to ride a horse that had been administered pentobarbital for safety reasons, but in a small dose it shouldn’t be inherently more harmful to the horse than giving it a different sedative.
The crazy part of it to me is that it’s a controlled substance due to (human) abuse potential and much more tightly restricted than most of the other sedatives commonly used in horses. I guess you can buy just about anything on the black market if you know where to go, or maybe there are vets out there that are unethical enough to risk their licenses in order to help a trainer cheat.
There’s a viral post going around Facebook using pentobarbital positives as a reason that horses should be allowed to compete on “herbal calming supplements.” I disagree there … herbal supplements aren’t inherently safer, this is just the naturalistic fallacy at play. If herbal calming supplements work at all, it’s because they contain sedating substances that are just not nearly as pure or well-regulated as the ones in pharmaceuticals.
I know it’s much easier said than done, but imo the best approach is to ride a horse that is suited to the job at hand, and train it properly. No drug or supplements required.
10 Likes
STRONG disagree and I ride this kind of horse. Today’s jumpers are generally very light and less strong than the elephants of yesteryear. Riders now are spindly little twig people compared to the burly physique we all developed back in the day from trying to stop. Jumpers may be sharper these days but they are easier and have far less of that WB balkiness and attitude.
I am not a hunter person but I think the hunters are much quieter now from what I see. Most people I know that do the hunters have very, very quiet and sweet horses with easy gaits and a “step over” jump. On the odd occasion one bucks or does something naughty it’s the talk of the town.
3 Likes
Most people we hang out with aren’t juicing their horses until they fall down. I think this whole conversation is about maybe the top 5% of horses at the top ecehlon of show. I’d be very surprised if the average adult amateur hunter at a local Virginia A show had anything more nefarious going on than a tube of perfect prep, but when I was in KY for green incentive and derby finals, it was rampant. Empty bottles of adenosine in the trash, rumors about which one fell down in the barn this morning… there’s a very specific subset of the sport that’s doing shit like this.
9 Likes
I absolutely agree except that many of those top horses are also very quiet by nature. I was addressing the poster above who seemed to think most hunters were rejected jumpers and therefore very sharp. That hasn’t been true for 30 years. They are purpose bred.
I think drugging has more to do with a mix of superstition and “that’s what we’ve always done” than any sudden need to make an individual horse just 5% better than it is naturally.
I do wonder how many horses will test positive for trace amounts of recreational substances and what USEF will so about that though.
Top hunters are not purpose bred to be hunters, that’s demonstrably false. This was a couple years back but I did a spreadsheet of the breeding of the top horses in derby finals and not one was bred to be a hunter or in the US:
5 Likes
Like they are going to test fake tails? Or did I miss the /s?
