Using a curb bit to extend the horse's stride

[Jackie_Cochran]

Sorry for the novel.

A little bit of background here. This horse is a 28 year old Appendix QH chestnut gelding in use as a hunt seat lesson horse for many years, before my riding teacher got him he was used to give jumping lessons 8 hours a day. This usage led to him having navicular disease, for which he is properly shod (from vet X-rays working with the farrier). He is no longer used for jumping. Everyone else rides him in a three-piece lozenge snaffle eggbutt.

I ride him in a double bridle. My bits are the Fager Weymouth Victoria Mullen mouth curb (no longer made) 135mm wide, the mouthpiece is around 12mm thick, and the shanks are 70mm. The bradoon is the Fager Alice, 125 mm three piece snaffle with fixed cheeks which has a titanium roller in the middle of the mouthpiece. I altered a Micklem multi-bridle by cutting off the chin strap and I run the bradoon hanger over the crown piece through the loops of the browband. The horse and my riding teacher are happy with this double bridle, in fact when I suggest going back to the snaffle my riding teacher says–no because she likes how he moves under me. I ride Forward Seat ala Vladimir Littauer’s “Common Sense Horsemanship” in a Pegasus Butterfly Claudia jumping saddle. I have been using the double bridle on him for around 2 years with no fussing or head slinging or any other problems. He obeys my light hands, used in coordination with my lower legs, well. His face does NOT go behind the vertical.

A few weeks ago I was sort of bored during my “homework ride” and decided to see how he would do extending his walking stride when I just kept contact with the curb bit, I sort of tied the buckle end of the bradoon reins to the grab strap making sure the drape of the bradoon reins was inside the curb reins. Taking a light contact with just the curb rein I alternated my lower legs to ask him to extend his walk. He not only extended his walk he reached out for the bit with a relaxed mouth and when he wanted more rein he slid the “notched” curb reins through my relaxed fingers. I showed my riding teacher this my next lesson and she was impressed. Several rides later I did this at the posting trot during a lesson with the same result, he extended his head and neck, his back felt like it lengthened, and his whole body relaxed. Usually when he goes from the trot to the walk sitting down on his back feels like sitting on a jackhammer down, today his back felt nice, soft, swinging and fluid.

I get BETTER extensions of his stride at the walk and trot when I have contact with just the curb rein than when I have contact with just the bradoon rein. He relaxes, reaches his head forward and down a little, nose most definitely leading, and extends his stride without a lot of extra leg on my part, in fact I have to use LESS leg than when I ask him to extend his stride when my contact is mainly with the bradoon. He is light in hand, he “talks” to me with his tongue moving the bits some (no froth). My riding teacher tells me he is showing no distress and that he looks more relaxed than when I keep contact with just the bradoon.

Has anyone else had this type of result from keeping contact with just the curb bit?

I was NOT expecting this result, my riding teacher was not expecting this result, but this ancient lesson horse thinks that contact with just the curb bit is better for extending his stride although my hands are sort of compromised with my MS (which is why I keep contact with relaxed and sort of loose fingers.)

At the end of my lesson today my riding teacher wanted me up in two-point for a while. I got up into two-point at the walk, legged him into contact with the curb bit, and this ancient horse who prefers the lesson horse 2 MPH walk gave me a GOOD flat-footed walk like what was our ideal walk back 50 years ago, at about 4 MPH, all with contact just with the Mullen mouth Weymouth curb.

[SuzieQNutter]

Yes. I had a problem with my right arm, lost the use of it for awhile. I lunged my mare in elasticised side reins which teach them to pull and lean, she leaned on me, my arm couldn’t take it. Things went downhill from there. Mum knew a Grand Prix Dressage rider. He came out to see me and I told him honestly that I felt I could not ride this horse anymore and I should sell her.

He told me to tie a knot in the bradoon reins and ride with the curb.

My mind reeled. How often are you told continually not to use the curb?

I did as I was told and MAGIC. I could ride again. I could do anything he asked. It gave me my confidence back.

Bits are only as severe as the hands at the other ends of the reins

[Jackie_Cochran]

I find it quite interesting.

Like I use a Mullen mouth curb bit. However whenever I try to use a Mullen mouth snaffle or a solid mouth ported snaffle on several horses the horses say “NO, why are you torturing my mouth!” I finally came to the conclusion that the horses did not like the Mullen mouth snaffle because I could not keep it centered in the horses’ mouths (my proprioceptive sense does not exist).

But I have no problems with the Mullen mouth curb. Today I was keeping contact with just the curb weaving our way around and between the jumps using my lower legs, upper thighs and making my head move in the direction I wanted to go, and we successfully wound around all those jumps without using rein turning aids. The horse kept up contact fine and kept on reaching for more rein fearlessly when I asked him to extend his stride on the short straightaways.

I regularly ask my riding teacher if this horse is showing any signs of anxiety or fear from the curb bit and she said he looked perfectly happy with me and his mouth was calm with light “chewing” on the bit (no gobs of foam or slobber.)

I am flabbergasted. I was NOT expecting this reaction (neither was my riding teacher). I had kept contact with just the curb for a short while to teach the horse he did not have to fear the curb bit before this, but I had never asked for an extension before while keeping contact with just the curb.

We ended the lesson bemoaning the fact that in US Hunter classes this marvelous flat footed walk would have disqualified me because I would be using an “unusual” bit.

Nowadays I think that a lot of riders would solve their problems with contact and obedience to the rein aids if they would just switch to a double bridle. If I can get this result with my hands messed up because of my MS, people with better hands should be able to get even better results.

[blue_heron]

@Jackie_Cochran

Nowadays I think that a lot of riders would solve their problems with contact and obedience to the rein aids if they would just switch to a double bridle. If I can get this result with my hands messed up because of my MS, people with better hands should be able to get even better results.

There are certainly horses that go much better in a double bridle. I’ve had a few, usually because the double bridle leaves less “questions” and they are the “has potential, lacks confidence” type. That being said, most people can’t ride in a snaffle bridle and should consider that their problems with contact and obedience comes from themselves before trying a double bridle. You under the supervision of your instructor are a deviation from the norm.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Yes, I am a deviation from the norm.

Over 40 years ago I got bored while riding in the wonderful HUGE pasture with good galloping ground. My horse was also getting bored. I asked the BO (ex student of Gordon Wright) if I was good enough to try the double bridle–as in was my seat secure enough so I would not torture the horse. She said I was, got the bits, the extra rein and the bradoon hangar and went at it. I picked it up again occasionally through the decades when boredom overcame me and my riding horse, and for the occasional ruined horse that had to learn that bits do not automatically mean torture.

I was riding occasionally with the double bridle for over thirty years before I had a chance to use the double bridle in a riding lesson. My horses taught me how to use it. Apparently my horses taught me well. My riding teacher told me she never used a double bridle, just a Pelham, so in a way I am teaching her how to teach a rider to use a double bridle properly.

The same with riding with just a Weymouth curb, I got bored, my horse got bored, it was hot, I decided to ride all summer bareback and decided to see if I was good enough bareback to not abuse my horse by riding with just the curb. I was good enough to keep contact at the walk but when I tried the sitting trot he put his head up in rammener (sp?), so I trotted and cantered with sagging reins. That is why I am so stoked that decades later this horse is apparently enjoying me keeping contact with just the curb at the trot–posting or in two-point and he is keeping his head down with his nose in front in the proper Forward Seat manner.

And if my riding teacher thought I was abusing her horses’ mouths by using a double bridle it would be taken off the horse’s head so quick that my head would spin.

[Warmblood1]

The curb should be assisting in longitudinal flexion when you ride. Also not uncommon to drop the snaffle and use the curb for refinement IF the horse can be ridden off of the seat. That said, I’m not surprised you are getting an increase in obedience when using the curb. That’s not unusual. He is also likely responding to the poll pressure of the curb which is affecting longitudinal flexion and roundness. When a horse is working more over the back, the extensions are automatically going to improve.

[SuzieQNutter]

@Jackie_Cochran

Nowadays I think that a lot of riders would solve their problems with contact and obedience to the rein aids if they would just switch to a double bridle. If I can get this result with my hands messed up because of my MS, people with better hands should be able to get even better results.

This is not good advice. The bits are only as gentle or as harsh as the hands at the other end of the reins. If riders are having a problem with contact and obedience their hands are the problem and you don’t put curb reins into the hands that are having problems with contact and obedience.

In my case I had lost the use of my right arm. I did not have any strength, just holding a rein was too much and it helped with my confidence. That did not mean I rode her like that from then on. I regained use of my arm and went back to the snaffle.

[Kyrabee]

I have one of those that says NO to snaffles. She is 20…I have tried plenty. Even the one I had ridden her in for years she has now said NO to. So, I dug out an old bit…a Linda Tellington Jones roller bit. Oh my, she was so much happier and for the first time in her life, quieter in the mouth. It has slots for a second set of reins near the mouthpiece but I find the shank length a bit too much leverage for my taste. So, after seeing a set up from Karen Rohlf with a Weymouth over her bitless bridle. The bitless gives me the lateral flexion and the Weymouth (Fager Felicia w/only 5 cm shanks) gives me the longitudinal flexion. It is like we found power steering and this set up is working very well. I am not concerned about showing at this point. Just having a happy horse. Not having her trying to swallow her tongue constantly is blissful.

I have not noticed a bigger stride but she does feel different…may a bit more suppleness and schwung and definitely better submission. Relaxation is definitely better and allowing her to move more freely because she isn’t so braced in the jaw and neck?

I have thought about doing this for a long time. I am glad I finally did. I use the LTJ bit for trail riding…again, much happier and more relaxed.

Susan

[RedHorses]

Anyone remember that British woman who used to train dogs? Her signature was “Walkies!” She also wrote a book on riding and advocated putting children’s ponies in Pelham bits with one rein on the curb ring.

I ride my super horse in a mechanical hackamore on contact. He can do all the things in the hackamore (jump, Second level dressage, etc).

Contact in the hackamore means taking up the slack so that he can feel the light rein aids clearly. Holding too tight tends to annoy him as he can’t relieve the tight band around his nose (and I saw the same head tossing reaction from other horses when their riders were holding too strong a contact with a hackamore). Contact in the hackamore means that I must have contact with both reins, as dropping one removes contact from both reins. To me it feels very similar to riding on contact with a bit - I don’t feel that I have to use my aids differently and he responds the same way he does to the bit.

I wonder if riding on curb contact is similar in that you need to be consistent, light, and have balanced rein contact. The clinician I used to ride with regularly commented on and complimented my balanced contact (left-right) on the reins. I learned that finesse from riding on contact with the mechanical hackamore.

[Jackie_Cochran]

My favorite phrase about contact is “Your hands belong to your horse’s mouth.”

I admire your results with the mechanical hackamore @RedHorses. I have never gotten results like that with any bitless system, mainly because somewhere along the way the horse finally gets through to me that with my hand, balance and coordination problems they prefer me using a bit that they approve of over any of the 6 bitless systems I have used (most of them in lessons with my riding teachers).

The ancient Arabian mare who had the most sensitive mouth of any horse that I’d ridden got down to cussing me out severely (head flinging, distressed expressions) with the bitless systems–cross-under (3 types), direct pull (ancient jumping cavesson), the mechanical hackamore setting on the LG bitless (like a flower hackamore,) I listened. This mare told me that sagging rein riding was fine, hand aids were fine as long as it was hand aid-total release and let her do her job, thank you very much. Contact was just too harsh for her sensitive nose.

After around two months of “my hands belong to your mouth dear mare” she decided, that even with my imperfect hands etc., she preferred contact with the bit and would reach out for it in response to leg aids. I just used snaffles on her, no real problems. When she did cuss me out for my contact my first question to my teacher was “What am I doing wrong”, and usually the answer was that she did not see anything bad. When I asked the mare her answer (heavily interpreted) usually was “lighten up your contact, you are too rough for me now.” I did not use a double bridle on this super sensitive mare because she “told” me that my seat was not secure enough yet for her happiness and satisfaction.

When I had lessons at North Fork School of Equitation oh so many decades ago, my first several lessons Kay Russell was mainly yelling “you are irritating/abusing your horse!” The abuse was mainly my hands, legs and seat. Kay Russell did not approve of my riding at all, her horses did not approve at all, and I finally learned to tell when I was irritating the horse, my riding improved greatly and Kay Russell quit yelling at me each and every lesson. She did not put me on easy horses, her residential students were expected to learn to deal with all types of horses that were unhappy with most riders.

Since then I have listened to the horses. When they tell me I am irritating them I work hard at not irritating them, once I stop irritating them and explain clearly what I want it is usually smooth sailing for me, the horse is happy and my riding teacher is happy. If the horse goes behind vertical I know my hands are just too harsh and I repair my seat, use my lower legs properly, soften my hands, make sure my hand aids are in time to where the horse’s hind leg is within the stride. After I fix myself I can go back to a few ounces of contact with hand aids of grams of force.

There is ONE way in which contact with the curb bit is softer than contact with the snaffle. I was not aware of this until I read de la Gueriniere’s section on bits and handling the bits in his book. In his discussion about curb bits he said that he considered the curb bits that he used with VERY LONG shanks to be gentler than curb bits with say 5" or shorter shanks like we use today. He wrote that with the looooong shank that the horse was given more time before the bit got to full power, the arc of the ring at the end of the shank had to move more distance before the bit activated in the mouth and the curb chain engaged. Of course he was riding in collection with the horse’s head up and the horse’s face vertical or a little bit in front or behind the vertical. With snaffle bits and with curb bits with the shorter shanks the horse does not get the warning moments before the full force of the bit bears down on the horse’s mouth, moments the horse can use to get his whole body so it can obey the rein aids properly.

I do use the curbs with 5" shanks because I do not ride the horses with the head up in collection, the horse’s noses are poked forward like a proper forward seat horse going over the ground efficiently. My arms just are not long enough to give enough rein for the horse to keep light, consistent contact with curb bits with 7" shanks, the horses politely go behind the vertical and I know I have failed to keep proper contact. I ride within my limits.

It is the HORSES I ride who tell me when my contact is good and when my contact is comfortable to them, after all the horses are telling me all about it long before they open their mouth, fling their head around, and bore into the bit. My riding teachers are understanding that I have set limits on what is acceptable contact, and I tell them to yell at me when my contact gets bad enough for them to notice that the horse is not happy with me. My riding teachers have not yelled at me about contact for years. On the other hand the horses often make comments about my hands, I listen to their specific objections, and correct my faults with my hands and seat. I know I am successful when the horse stops fussing at me, calms down, and willingly reaches for the bit in response to my light leg aids.

While a decent riding teacher can be extremely helpful in learning to ride, eventually the rider realizes that it is the HORSE that is doing the teaching, the riding instructor is there to translate what the horse is saying to the rider so the rider knows what needs improvement. Once the rider learns to “hear” what the horse is saying the dire need for constant instruction goes down as the horse takes over the job of teaching the rider to ride well. The riding instructor’s translations are no longer needed since the rider now listens to what the horse is saying about them and understands what the horse is saying.

When the HORSES I ride tell me that I am no longer a good enough rider to use a double bridle on them I will stop using a double bridle. When the HORSES tell me that I am no longer a good enough rider to keep contact with the 5" shank Weymouth curb I will no longer use the curb bit by itself. When the HORSES tell me that my riding has deteriorated so badly that I am no longer competent to keep contact with the bit I will go back to riding bitless with sagging reins, sometimes this is the only thing that the horses think I am capable of at that time.

Riding teachers can really help, but in the end I listen to the HORSES and if the horse and my riding teacher disagree about my abilities in the saddle guess what, I listen to the horse. They are always right, especially about their sensitive mouths.

Sorry about the novel.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Barbara Woodhouse! I have the book, and she says (direct quotes), “we must be pelham fans.” She spent time schooling cow ponies in Central America (curb bits), so her training as a rider had different skillsets than the average British horsewoman of her era. But even then, pelhams (if you look at old hunting prints) are more common. The ideal of the 19th century horseperson was to ride a horse lightly on the curb.

But, history aside, people rode much more often back then, rode less often in the ring, and horses were vehicles of transportation. You needed brakes.

I used to ride a pony who went much better in a pelham, but I’m also glad we’re more flexible about not “needing” all horses to go in a pelham.

[RedHorses]

That’s her! I was completely blanking on her name.

@Jackie_Cochran yes! I learned to ride on contact with the mechanical hackamore by listening to what my super horse told me, and adjusting myself in response. I learned what he taught me.

This is the mechanical hackamore I use. It came with a chain curb which I replaced with a leather curb strap.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Today it all became clear to me.

My lesson/homework horse did a trail ride yesterday (St. Jude’s benefit) with two riders who did one half of the ride each.

The horse I ride has three regular riders (all of us adult women) plus an occasional other rider when my riding teacher needs an extra calm horse for an anxious rider. All the other riders right now ride him in a three-piece lozenge snaffle bit. With some of our rides the horse is sort of “iffy” about contact with the snaffle, I work on that every ride but every week there is a minor “set back” with his snaffle contact. I finally picked up that some times the other riders used the bit a little bit too harshly and his mouth did not feel comfortable for a week or two, or that their rein aids were sort of confusing him.

When I use contact with the curb bit I avoid the places where the snaffle bit may have been used too harshly. My lesson horse will reach out for contact with confidence in my hands with either bit. While the horse seems to trust my hands with the bradoon it feels like he is waiting for discomfort with the snaffle bit when I keep contact. Since I am the only person to ever ride him on contact with the curb bit I have his full confidence that the curb bit will not accidentally hurt his mouth, or if something bad happens I will notice it immediately and back off on contact until he tells me it is all right with him for me to keep contact again.

I could school him to death for proper, reliable contact with the snaffle, however his other riders are not as experienced as I am with keeping contact. If I was his only rider I could ride him at my level, with my contact, and I would be relatively the same from week to week. However with 3 different riders he has “questions” about exactly what a specific rein aid means, plus the question of “is this really a rein aid or does this rider not realize what her hands are doing to my mouth?” I think this might be why he raises his head somewhat more than I like when I keep contact with the bradoon, but voluntarily keeps his head down where it belongs for my type of riding when I keep contact with the curb bit.

I have come to the conclusion that for me riding lesson horses who have several riders, the double bridle and contact with just the curb “tells” the horse that I am riding him at a slightly higher level than his other riders. I do NOT have the freedom to make the horse super responsive to my rein aids with the snaffle, that would not be fair to the horse’s other riders who have not ridden as long as I have and whose hands are not as educated (as in educated enough to say that this rein aid at this time means THIS not that.) I also do not have the freedom to make the horse super responsive to my leg aids. My lesson horse is a lesson horse for other riders who are learning how to ride better. I am free to educate him, but I am not free to make him super responsive to the tweak of the bit or the breath of my boot.

My riding teacher has zero problems with my riding on contact with the snaffle or the curb bit. I think she likes that when I use the double bridle I do not essentially have to give the horse remedial training every single ride, especially since my lesson is only 30 minutes long. My lesson horse knows what I mean with the double bridle and he is not questioning every single rein aid.

And he and my riding teacher are happy with me every lesson so long as my body works well. If my body does not work well, I just go back to the elementary level Forward Seat riding and I do not drive the horse crazy with my physical problems. Either way after every lesson me, my riding teacher and my lesson horse are pretty content with the work we did for 30 minutes. We work together well.

[red_mares]

I had a mare who would not wear a snaffle bit. Driving she went in a 4 ring slow twist; riding she went in a slip shank low port curb, with an overcheck bit as a bridoon. I drove her in a plain mullen mouth half cheek one day. It was a little terrifying, like being in a car with no brakes.

My current driving horse can be strong. We went through every bit in the barn and one day I suggested we try the Liverpool I had, which is a shanked driving bit, basically a curb bit. The skies opened and the angels sang. He finally set his head and got off the iron. We played around with a few different ones and the one he likes is this nasty looking Liverpool with straight mouth wrapped in copper wire. It looks uglier than it really is, and at any rate the weirdo likes it and it gives my hands and arms a break.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Something interesting happened my last lesson.

I was riding the lesson horse MJ, 28 yr. old Appendix QH gelding, who has the most jarring sitting trot I have ever ridden when he is on contact with my Fager titanium 3-piece mouthpiece-with-a-roller bradoon (with sagging curb reins). I have noticed lately that when I asked for a posting trot-walk downward transition with VERY LIGHT alternating CURB reins, that his trot smoothed out and it was really pleasant for a short while, down to a good walk.

I asked my riding teacher permission to keep contact with just the curb rein during the sitting trot, told her why I wanted to try this, and she said yes. I tied up my bradoon reins, got a trot, asked for contact with my leg aids, and MJ obeyed but raised his head a little bit (not quite inverted). I made sure my fingers were light and relaxed and asked him to lengthen with leg aids (while making sure my heels were down).

MJ reached forward with his nose and mouth while his head and neck went down to a nice Forward Seat sitting trot “frame” (no force), slipping the curb reins through my relaxed fingers. My riding teacher said she saw no hesitation, the descent of his head and neck were smooth, and that the contact was good since MJ showed no signs of distress from the curb bit and my hands. His sitting trot was sittable, a little rough but within the “norms” of sitting trots, with his back relaxed and “swinging” and there were a few steps where his back relaxed and was pleasant to sit on. A BIG change from his usual jack-hammer slow trot.

She also said our downward transition to the walk was very good. She also told me that MJ never showed any fear of the curb bit while on contact with it.

On here, the Forum, I read of all kinds of problems that people have with finding the “perfect” snaffle bit for their horses and their, the rider’s, seat and hands. These “perfect” snaffles can get really expensive as the rider desperately tries to find that “perfect” snaffle. Then there are the nosebands, the drops and flashes, two fingers looseness to really tight.

And I sit here thinking “WHY won’t you try a double bridle? You very well could get exactly the results you want and your horse will be MUCH happier with your riding.” But no, the dressage “gods” have spoken and in hunt seat/eventing/dressage riding only they are allowed to use the double bridle, and then only at a higher level of competition dressage riding, training and showing.

Curb bits are not a razor, they are not the Devil’s invention to torment horses. They are a tool that takes light contact and aids to get results. If I, with my considerable problems with my hands from my Multiple sclerosis, can get humane and non-abusive contact with a 5" shank mullen mouth Weymouth curb or a Cambridge mouth curb, well almost everybody should be able to do this too.

And I bet that many, many horses would be much happier with their riders too, as long as the contact and rein aids are light. These horses would stop mimicking fully loaded freight trains too.

[SuzieQNutter]

To learn proper contact takes a lot longer than people think it does. You do not want people using curbs when they are not ready for it.

[Willesdon]

The horse traditions that use curb bits rather than snaffles, which is mainly those with Iberian roots, make their horses using a hackamore, or equivalent, on the nose before the bit is introduced to the mouth.

[blue_heron]

Most of the western disciplines (the professional ones, anyways) start horses in a snaffle before a curb, too.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Of course there is a training stage in which the horse is introduced to the language of the rider’s aids at the beginning of training. Some traditions use the snaffle bit, others use the bosal, and in South America the gauchos use the bocado. Usually there is a decent amount of training the horse in this initial gear, then the curb is introduced, often in tandem with the initial milder mouthpiece.

The horse I used the curb bit to extend the walking stride is TWENTY-EIGHT and has been ridden for decades in the snaffle. Using the double bridle I was able to use the bradoon to get his mouth where I like it in the snaffle, responsive to light contact and rein aids with a calm mouth, quiet tongue, and its nose definitely in front of vertical. This took a few weeks of one half hour lesson a week, and after that I, my riding teacher, and my lesson horse all agreed that he was ready to learn that the curb bit is not an instrument of torture.

I have to do this with most of the lesson horses, whether they stay in the snaffle with the other riding students or I go on to the double bridle for my rides. Since I put my last horse down I have ridden several lesson horses (or horses essentially dumped at my riding teacher’s stable) and they ALL needed to be retrained in the snaffle to learn how to keep good, responsive contact. Rather light hand aids have to be trained with the snaffle bit before the horse is ready for the greater refinement of the curb bit. Only then do I consider using the curb bit at all, and it takes several more months of using the double bridle before I even consider using only the curb bit for my rides. After all I also usually have to train these lesson horses to proper refined leg aids also, since I need these leg aids for steering if I do not have or use a snaffle/bradoon.

And all of this is under the eagle eyes of my riding teachers.

If your horse understands contact and the rein aids with the snaffle, if the rider can use light rein aids with the snaffle, as far as training is concerned the horse is ready for a sane, logical introduction of the double bridle. If the rider is scared the curb is too harsh, take off the curb chain for the first six rides, the curb bit will still feel different than the bradoon to the horse. There might be problems at first if the horse is only used to hard contact with the snaffle, hard contact as in pounds of pressure on the bit with the horse’s mouth tied shut with abusively tight nosebands. Teach the horse to be lighter in hand with the snaffle before introducing the use of the curb in the double bridle.

This is the system I use, and because of my system I can find success just using the curb bit for contact when I and my riding teacher think that the horse is confirmed as far as proper contact with the snaffle. Since my contact is light even with the snaffle I have not run into any problems. This process of training can take a few months before the horse is ready, and once the horse is ready the introduction of the double bridle is a non-event, just another refinement of what is normal for the horse. In a few months of exploration of the new type of bit the horse can be ready to have contact with just the curb bit.

A slow, gradual process.

The Weymouth is not a cruel curb bit. In Chile the huasos (cowboys) used the old Moorish ring curb bit they originally brought over from Spain during their colonial period. THAT curb bit can be horribly cruel to the horse, as can the spade bit, in the hands of any but the most experienced riders with really good hands.

[blue_heron]

@Jackie_Cochran

If the rider is scared the curb is too harsh, take off the curb chain for the first six rides, the curb bit will still feel different than the bradoon to the horse.

I am all for your use of the double bridle and really appreciate the discussion and anti-demonizing of the double, but this undoubtedly makes the curb harsher, so a rider scared of the curb should definitely opt out of this. There’s no stop for the leverage. It’s also just not how the curb is supposed to be used. Which, as I said before, most people don’t know how to begin with.