Vermont Blend Pro Vs California Trace Plus vs KIS Trace

[ladipus]

I’ve posted a bit here and there recently about the diet for my new Friesian …he came to me in February on Tribute Kalm N Ez ,K Finish, Equine Total Gold oil and MVP Mag 5000…I wanted something less caloric and lower nsc so I transitioned to Hygain Zero …then I noticed in the past month or so his hoof quality started to deteriorate and was chipping and breaking off chucks of his hoof walls and he was becoming sore on the gravel and stones.He’s pigeon toed and subsequently has some flares that were slowly addressing .While my vet was out yesterday for another horse of mine I had her take X-rays of his front feet to see if anything was going on , she also hoof tested him and he was slightly reactive at the toes …X-rays showed no laminitis/rotation but he has very little sole depth …only 8 mm …vet said 14-15 mm is ideal.

So now I’d like to put him on a forage mineral balancer with good hoof support …I’ve narrowed it down to VB Pro, CA Trace Plus or KIS Trace …looking for the most palatable…I will be carrying it in some soaked Timothy balance cubes , flax and a small amount of the Hygain Zero as a taste temper…he’s surprisingly picky for an easy keeper

These three all more or less are similar but CA Trace Plus & KIS have some extras like vitamin A , E, cobalt , manganese, and calcium I believe …not sure if that makes them a better choice or not or if those ingredients are necessary…I do have a hay analysis however what I’ve got is about to finish and my supply will vary from load to load throughout the summer.

Thanks in advance

[dr5627]

You can get samples of California Trace and Vermont Blend, and I sent an email about samples of KIS but haven’t heard back yet. Right now they’re eating Omneity premix fine but I might experiment.

[PonyApocalypse19]

I do recommend getting two sample bags for the VT blend. I feed it through a beet pulp mash with a bit of molasses and the boys gobble it up, but another lady at the barn has been trying it and her mare didn’t like it with beet pulp after a couple days - she’s also IR, so no sugar. So she would eat it at first and then turn her nose up at it. One sample bag doesn’t last very long at full dosing size. I worked my boys up to the full amount over a week as well, so two trial size bags will help you know if your horse likes it or not.
For the price and amount/blend of minerals, VT was the better choice for me. It eliminated three separate supplements I was already giving and I ended up saving money!

[JB]

@ladipus

CA Trace Plus & KIS have some extras like vitamin A , E, cobalt , manganese, and calcium I believe

CT and KT come in pellet forms, VB/Pro does not . I use VBP and don’t have a palatability issue, but YMMV. It has Anise, which is similar to fenugreek, which a lot of horses love.

Cobalt is a non-issue. There’s no known dietary requirement, no deficiency ever recorded, so it’s assumed they get all they need from their forage.

A and E are situation-dependent, and not hard to add, though nice to have included. I will VERY much caution you that the E content in CT is not stable, and has led to horses becoming deficient even while on the Plus which has more. It’s been shown that E degrades quickly in the presence of copper if there isn’t an oil to protect it (the study said soy oil but I don’t know if it has to be soy). So don’t rely on the E in CT/Plus or KT.

Lots of places have plennnnty of Mn, so if you can list what your current hay has for cu, zn, and mn, and if your hay all comes from the same general area (like the same state at least) that’s useful info.

calcium - see what your last hay analysis has. This might be good to have, might be irrelevant.

@ladipus

I noticed in the past month or so his hoof quality started to deteriorate and was chipping and breaking off chucks of his hoof walls and he was becoming sore on the gravel and stones

Feet grow an average of 1/4" a month, so what’s at the bottom now was fed 8-10 months ago depending on the length of the foot. Are you 1000% sure this isn’t due to metabolic issues, and/or trim issues?

Omniety is another option, with pretty good profiles that are suitable for a lot of grass forages.

I wouldn’t use Amino Trace for grass forages, the ca/p issue is upside down, which is often already a problem with grasses. It IS a nicer one for metabolic horses due to some additions

[dr5627]

@JB

Lots of places have plennnnty of Mn, so if you can list what your current hay has for cu, zn, and mn, and if your hay all comes from the same general area (like the same state at least) that’s useful info.

@JB, according to this map my area is low in manganese, would you recommend using something that has manganese added then? I board and don’t know where my hay comes from but I assume fairly local. And good to know on Amino Trace - since it’s grass hay I should not bother trying that then?

[JB]

@dr5627

my area (northern MI) is low in manganese, would you recommend using something that has manganese added then?

Barring a hay analysis, that’s where I probably would want some Mn in the mix, as long as there’s enough cu and zn to go with it

I just wouldn’t do AT for an untested grass hay. It has 1.6gm Ca (meh), but 7.5gm P, and if you add that to a grass that’s low in Ca, or low in relation to P, it’s just making things worse.

Omniety has 10.8 and 6gm respectively, WAY better for typical grasses

The other weirdness is that the AA profile of Omneity is more suitable for legume forages, and the AA profile of AT is better for grasses. The good thing is that a decent grass forage likely has enough AAs, at least if the protein is in the 10% range (or more).

[ladipus]

@JB we also pulled blood to check insulin & glucose to cover our bases …we will get those results hopefully by Friday or early next week at latest…my vet thinks it will be normal because he’s at a good weight , gets exercised regularly , no crest or fat pads , nor any heat or pulses in his feet …he also wears a grazing muzzle while turned out for the past month now to be cautious… if it were to come back as metabolic/IR would that be the cause of sole depth issue? I understood it to be partly him and a dietary issue Or are you referring to the quality of the hooves ? Does metabolic cause chipping and breaking or just that some metabolic horses get sore on spring /fall grass ? I know laminitis obviously causes foot pain/soreness …luckily X-rays looked good! He’s getting trimmed on a 4-5 wks schedule since I got him in February…farrier is slowly addressing the flares -doesn’t want to be too aggressive about it to quickly…at his most recent trim Monday farrier only rounded him up because so much had broken off …he took nothing off the bottom which might potentially cause more soreness …My boy has been gradually becoming more ouchy though over the past few weeks. My vet said he’s essentially walking on his soles especially at the toe area since so much of the walls broke off …that coupled with 8mm sole depth said justifies the ouchy on gravel/stones. Hoping that’s all good it is and a pair of front shoes and a diet change to one of these forage mineral balancers will do the trick.

[FjordBCRF]

@JB

I will VERY much caution you that the E content in CT is not stable, and has led to horses becoming deficient even while on the Plus which has more. It’s been shown that E degrades quickly in the presence of copper if there isn’t an oil to protect it (the study said soy oil but I don’t know if it has to be soy). So don’t rely on the E in CT/Plus or KT.

Jumping in to echo this. My Fjord was on the CT Plus for a couple years, saw the info about horses on it testing low for Vit E and had him tested. Low and behold…we were low. Because of this, I switched him over to VBPro and also buy their Omega E which is flax + Vit E.

Whatever you pick, introduce it really slow. I had to use a diluted water/molasses spray to get Charlie to eat the CT at first. When I switched to the VBPro…no issues with taste as I think he was already used to the mineral taste. I mix mine and his other supplements in 2 kitchen measuring cups of soaked, shredded beet pulp.

[FjordBCRF]

@ladipus

My boy has been gradually becoming more ouchy though over the past few weeks

How much grass is he on? My fjord had a bout with laminitis even WITH a grazing muzzle. These breeds can be really really sensitive to spring grass. Mine is dry lotted for life at this point.

Was he barefoot when you got him?

[ladipus]

I actually happen to have samples of the CA Trace Plus pellets and powder …so far he’s eating the pellets without issue in the soaked Timothy balance cubes/flax/Zero mixture ! If I stick with that I will add more vitamin e …I have 2 others of mine on VB Pro already …but they aren’t fussy eaters …I will try that and see how he takes to it …,I love VB because of the highest amount of copper, zinc& biotin

[ladipus]

Yes barefoot when I got him …he was imported from the Netherlands-had grass over there no problems …then went to South Carolina in January before getting to me in February. I slowly introduced him to my pastures little bits at a time…he’s now been on night turnout for past 3-4 wks - about 10-12hrs …prior to that was day turnout maybe half that amount of time.

[JB]

@ladipus

if it were to come back as metabolic/IR would that be the cause of sole depth issue?

It certainly can be. I don’t remember - do you have any previous xrays to see if his sole depth is normal for him?

Metabolic issues can cause chronic low-grade laminitis which can weaken the lamina-wall connection enough that it starts chipping when it reaches the ground.

@ladipus

farrier is slowly addressing the flares -doesn’t want to be too aggressive about it to quickly

this is where pictures help. Yes, if flares are high, you can’t take them all out, you’re severely compromise hoof wall integrity. But every trim should be properly dressing down the flared material that’s 1/2" or so up the toe wall, a bit less as you get back to the heels, so that no part of that weak connection has leverage applied to it at any point in the footfall movement.

@ladipus

he took nothing off the bottom which might potentially cause more soreness

Also more context If he didn’t trim any overgrown bar material, that’s not ok, as that alone can cause quarters to flare, and cause sole pressure. But if you mean he left exfoliating sole, that can be beneficial for thinner soled horses, letting them wear things off on their own

@ladipus

My vet said he’s essentially walking on his soles especially at the toe area since so much of the walls broke off …that coupled with 8mm sole depth said justifies the ouchy on gravel/stones.

that definitely makes them sore, most of the time

Shoes with some padding to protect the sole can be lifesavers even if just for a few trim cycles. Packign material to keep thrushy gunk away is a good idea,

[ladipus]

Farrier didn’t take anything off the bars on Monday he just rounded him up a bit …I’m gathering he will do that next week when he comes back to put shoes on him …he normally does address the bars little bits at a time. I don’t have previous X-rays but I can certainly contact the seller to see if she had any (this horse was bought for me as a surprise from husband…he had ppe but I’m not sure about anything else) does IR/EMS decrease sole depth?

[JB]

Bars need to be properly trimmed every time. Little bits at a time doesn’t make sense. They can be the entire reason quarters flare and soles are tender

[ladipus]

Maybe im not explaining it properly…farrier just said he needs to slowly address flares a little each time…he properly trims him.

[JB]

Yeah, that’s why I said more context (like pics) would be needed, and tried to explain both scenarios
I HAVE seen farriers be way too cautious with the “little at a time” and make slow to no progress because they’re not out-trimming the growth.

[dr5627]

I received the KIS samples today as well and CA trace included the powder samples with their shipment of the pellets so tonight is going to be a proper taste test for my 2 horses.

I have the following:
CA Trace powder and pellets
CA Trace Plus powder and pellets
VT Blend and Pro, both powders
Omneity powder and pellets
KIS Trace A/M flavor powder and original pellets (didn’t bother with original flavor powder)

[NaturallyHappy]

Out of all of those, the only one my two picky eaters would touch is KIS. Good luck!

[ladipus]

Ok that makes sense !

[FjordBCRF]

@JB

@ladipus

if it were to come back as metabolic/IR would that be the cause of sole depth issue?

It certainly can be. I don’t remember - do you have any previous xrays to see if his sole depth is normal for him?

I don’t recall the numbers offhand, but Charlie didn’t have great sole depth on his rads when he had his laminitis. Trimming wise, I generally leave his sole alone unless it is visibly starting to shed and always keep the bars trimmed.

When I got him as a three year old he was shod due to learning to drive on the road. I pulled his shoes in 2020 shortly after I got him, and he did have some tenderness even though I don’t expect he had the shoes on for long. He was find in the sand ring, but I did use hoof boots for trail riding and he was tender on any gravel for quite a while. Looking back, I wouldn’t be surprised if that tenderness was from being on verge of laminitis. Interestingly…he did not react to the hoof testers we tried or the vet tried. The laminitis in spring of 2021 set us way back on hooves but he has been sound on gravel now for quite some time and has a whole new hoof. I still use my boots trail riding since sometimes the terrain gets a little rough; rather be sure he is comfortable.

It doesn’t sound like you are quite sure of what your farrier is actually doing vs what he is telling you. It’s easy to tell if the bars and sole are being trimmed out or not. This book is a really good one to have in your library! https://www.amazon.com/Essential-Hoof-Book-Diagnosis-Treatment/dp/1570767327/ref=asc_df_1570767327/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312064598816&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12383120871093855545&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9015286&hvtargid=pla-401126340227&psc=1

Just because the horse was on grass prior to your purchase and is wearing a muzzle now doesn’t make them bulletproof against laminitis. You have a lot of signs that could be pointing towards it. Could it be the trim? Yes. I would encourage you to take and post photos of his feet, there are quite a few people here that will be able to help you assess how your trimmer is doing.

With that said, I will preach until I am blue in the face that you cannot be too careful with easy keepers and laminitis; I was lucky with only having a mild case…but I can assure you, you don’t want to go through that. At the time of our laminitis, all our numbers were in the normal range so there was no bloodwork indicating anything IR related. He was also in regular work and had a bit of a hay belly, but no fat pads/cresty neck either.