I think I would look at her way of going - how does she move, does she have good angulation of the hock when moving, flexibility, and what is her form over a fence (in a chute) - then I would look for a stallion hoping for good legs if I decided to proceed.
I’m not one who says ‘don’t breed’ since I have bred my own saddle horses and loved every minute of it…not a breeder per se. Been very lucky so far.
“Breed THE BEST to THE BEST and hope for the best”. There are far too many horses that aren’t useful, are bored and unhappy, are limping around pastures or feedlots, for me to agree with breeding a mediocre mare. Trying to get a racehorse? Has this mare raced successfully, or has her foal raced successfully? Trying to get a dressage horse? There are many, many better prospects, both TB and other breeds. Trying to get a jumper? The mare’s conformation doesn’t point in that direction. If someone JUST LOVED this mare for some reason, and wanted a foal just like her, and was going to keep it and care for it no matter what–maybe. But it is not my impression that that is the case. Why the grasping at straws?
[QUOTE=rebecca yount;8747832]
“Breed THE BEST to THE BEST and hope for the best”. There are far too many horses that aren’t useful, are bored and unhappy, are limping around pastures or feedlots, for me to agree with breeding a mediocre mare. Trying to get a racehorse? Has this mare raced successfully, or has her foal raced successfully? Trying to get a dressage horse? There are many, many better prospects, both TB and other breeds. Trying to get a jumper? The mare’s conformation doesn’t point in that direction. If someone JUST LOVED this mare for some reason, and wanted a foal just like her, and was going to keep it and care for it no matter what–maybe. But it is not my impression that that is the case. Why the grasping at straws?[/QUOTE]
This ^^^^
Is there a picture of the mare’s daughter? I’m interested in seeing if her faults were passed on, and seeing what the sire looks like as well.
More than a handful of less than ideal mares have been bred for other, valid reasons (such as rare but important pedigree, for example) and with carefully chosen stallions have keep the best part about the line alive, getting rid of the major flaws.
I’m not advocating (yet) for or against breeding the mare. I just think there’s more to it sometimes than shunning one based on conformation.
[QUOTE=rebecca yount;8747832]
“Breed THE BEST to THE BEST and hope for the best”. There are far too many horses that aren’t useful, are bored and unhappy, are limping around pastures or feedlots, for me to agree with breeding a mediocre mare. Trying to get a racehorse? Has this mare raced successfully, or has her foal raced successfully? Trying to get a dressage horse? There are many, many better prospects, both TB and other breeds. Trying to get a jumper? The mare’s conformation doesn’t point in that direction. If someone JUST LOVED this mare for some reason, and wanted a foal just like her, and was going to keep it and care for it no matter what–maybe. But it is not my impression that that is the case. Why the grasping at straws?[/QUOTE]
We say…breed the best and ride the rest.
In my opinion , this mare’s conformation is horrendous. Would never even consider any type of sporthorse breeding with her. Just because she is a Giant Causeway mare doesn’t mean squat. She’s not a very good Giant’s Causeway mare. That’s like saying , oh I have Contender mare or Cassini mare. You know how many crap mares are born to these stallions ?
As others have said…too many really nice mares around to be breeding with this type.
No one is saying this mare should be bred on the sole basis that she’s by Giant’s Causeway. No one is really saying the mare should be bred at all. If that’s what folks are taking away from this thread, then something needs to be done to improve reading comprehension.
But the fact that she is by Giant’s Causeway is a talking point, and may even be a point of value to some. If you don’t understand why it might be valued, then you probably don’t have a lot of familiarity with the stallion… and that’s fine. I wouldn’t expect someone outside racing circles to have followed his career. And obviously it’s not going to be of any interest to those who are anti-thoroughbred in the first place… :rolleyes:
If at some point in the future the OP decides to seriously consider breeding this mare…
I think the fact that she produced a foal that has raced, and won, and is still active and sound should weigh in the mare’s favor. I doubt the ‘club foot’ was passed on to that offspring.
I don’t know TB lines at all, and would like to ask, if this mare is so not worth breeding, then was the stallion who sired her foal something special? Did he drastically improve her?
Or did she bring something to the match?
OP have you had a vet to examine her feet. As others have said, perhaps it was an injury or lack of maintenance.
Is there any way the OP can talk to the breeder of her mare’s foal, and find out what kind of mom she was.
OP, any chance she is suitable for a recipient mare? Several repro vets near here are looking for mares who are easy to handle on the ground and not bothered by
exams etc.
Those are also terrible pics to try to judge a horse by. I don’t dislike the horse off the cuff. But I think you need much better pics and video before anyone can give you a decent eval.
That said I would be more in favor of getting to the root of the issues because IME, if a horse is so difficult you can’t ride it, and you breed it, your chance of getting an ammy friendly baby is…not high. Possible but not high. I know one family where a “difficult” but pretty mare was repeatedly bred. All 3 of her babies put people in the hospital. Different owners. Breeding her was a losing and dangerous proposition. Are you so afraid of this mare because you are nervous of horses in general, or is her behavior really dangerous to any rider? Does the trainer not want to ride her?
[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8748395]
Those are also terrible pics to try to judge a horse by. I don’t dislike the horse off the cuff. But I think you need much better pics and video before anyone can give you a decent eval.
That said I would be more in favor of getting to the root of the issues because IME, if a horse is so difficult you can’t ride it, and you breed it, your chance of getting an ammy friendly baby is…not high. Possible but not high. I know one family where a “difficult” but pretty mare was repeatedly bred. All 3 of her babies put people in the hospital. Different owners. Breeding her was a losing and dangerous proposition. Are you so afraid of this mare because you are nervous of horses in general, or is her behavior really dangerous to any rider? Does the trainer not want to ride her?[/QUOTE]
Valid point. Let me expound on my fear of riding her. As I said, she is saying “no” to moving forward for some reason. We have yet to confirm if it is a pain thing or a training thing. She has not always been this way…when I first got her she was a bit balky here and there but we had some decent rides for a green horse.
She bucked me off a few months ago (she did come to me with an alleged bucking problem but this was the first time she really displayed it). It was mostly my fault, she completely caught me off guard and there was no way I was staying with her. But I fell pretty hard into the fence and I really hurt for a few weeks. I went on a work trip the following day, and then I had to wait for my helmet to be replaced. In the middle of all this, I had the massage/chiro work done, vet check, vet prescribed time off, purchased a new saddle, etc. So it was several weeks (months?) before I was able to ride her again. Did lots of ground work but I didn’t actually sit on her. When we did start back under saddle, she was well behaved for the most part. My nerves got the best of me though…at the slightest sign of balking, bucking, or overall pissy, I would stop pushing her. I was afraid that if I pushed the issue, she would buck. And I was not confident that I could ride through it. So I continued riding for several weeks, but kept it mostly to a walk, or a little trot. Now, however, she will not even move away from the mounting block. She is calm, quiet, and happy while tacking up and mounting. Even standing still while mounted. But the first mention of “walk forward/turn/back/anything” and she starts popping her back feet out and getting a hump in her back.
I am fairly certain that it’s a training issue; one that I am not competent enough to address. Her behavior was probably encouraged by the fact that I let her be pissy and call the shots, because I was unwilling or too nervous to ride through it. However, before I involve a trainer, I would like to have a more thorough vet check just to 100% rule out any physical issues.
All of that rambling to say…I don’t think she’s dangerous. Especially not on the ground. However, I would NOT allow someone else to try riding unless they were a professional and were fully aware of the situation. Also back to my comment that “she may or may not be rideable”. Depends on what the Doc says.
Full back story here:http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?481625-Looking-for-some-thoughts-on-this-re-training-situation-Back-in-the-saddle!&highlight=piper
[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8748395]
Those are also terrible pics to try to judge a horse by. I don’t dislike the horse off the cuff. But I think you need much better pics and video before anyone can give you a decent eval.
That said I would be more in favor of getting to the root of the issues because IME, if a horse is so difficult you can’t ride it, and you breed it, your chance of getting an ammy friendly baby is…not high. Possible but not high. I know one family where a “difficult” but pretty mare was repeatedly bred. All 3 of her babies put people in the hospital. Different owners. Breeding her was a losing and dangerous proposition. Are you so afraid of this mare because you are nervous of horses in general, or is her behavior really dangerous to any rider? Does the trainer not want to ride her?[/QUOTE]
In my opinion…not terrible pics and as a matter of fact , they show all one needs to see. You can see total conformation from those pics and as I stated above , conformation is horrendous.
This is the current problem with the TB industry. They don’t give a crap about conformation. They only care about speed. This is why we continue to see these horrific and heartbreaking breakdowns time after time.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8748817]
In my opinion…not terrible pics and as a matter of fact , they show all one needs to see. You can see total conformation from those pics and as I stated above , conformation is horrendous.
This is the current problem with the TB industry. They don’t give a crap about conformation. They only care about speed. This is why we continue to see these horrific and heartbreaking breakdowns time after time.[/QUOTE]
Would you mind sharing more about why you think it’s horrendous? Not offended at all, I’m curious because my eye for that type of thing is not always great.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8748817]
This is the current problem with the TB industry. They don’t give a crap about conformation. They only care about speed. This is why we continue to see these horrific and heartbreaking breakdowns time after time.[/QUOTE]
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But as a thoroughbred breeder who grew up with warmblood breeders, I can say your opinion is based on utter ignorance.
Speed is a major factor in breakdowns. Speed is also, uh, the entire purpose of racing. To chide race breeders for breeding for speed is like arguing that your jumpers jump too well.
If you believe race breeders don’t give a crap about conformation, I invite you to attend some of the yearling and breeding stock sales. A minor conformation fault or a blemish on the x-rays can be the difference between a horse selling for six figures or being unsalable at a huge financial loss.
While things like the basics of leg conformation more or less transcend all breeds, the conformation needed for racing success today is quite different than what is sought after in jumpers and dressage. There are things that do not affect a race horse’s soundness or ability that can be career killers for a dressage horse or jumper, like neck set or a slightly straighter hock.
People spend billions on the thoroughbred industry in this country alone. No one wants a defective product. And no one wants their horse to die on the track. I have unfortunately witnessed too many catastrophic breakdowns in my lifetime. There are some that, in retrospect, you can say, “the signs were there.” Most are just a perfect storm of bad luck. If it was a simple as being able to point to one single thing (like conformation) to prevent them all, believe me, folks would be all over it. But it’s just not that simple. Stallions or mares that produce a truly unsound race horse do not last long in this country from a commercial standpoint.
As a warmblood purist, I know none of this will change your opinion. I don’t expect it to. All of this also has NOTHING to do with the mare in question. But I felt like this little tangent was important, maybe just for my sake. The racing industry is far from perfect, but in my experience, I’ve found that no horse industry is perfect. And then there’s something about people in glass houses…
[QUOTE=Texarkana;8748914]
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But as a thoroughbred breeder who grew up with warmblood breeders, I can say your opinion is based on utter ignorance.
Speed is a major factor in breakdowns. Speed is also, uh, the entire purpose of racing. To chide race breeders for breeding for speed is like arguing that your jumpers jump too well.
If you believe race breeders don’t give a crap about conformation, I invite you to attend some of the yearling and breeding stock sales. A minor conformation fault or a blemish on the x-rays can be the difference between a horse selling for six figures or being unsalable at a huge financial loss.
While things like the basics of leg conformation more or less transcend all breeds, the conformation needed for racing success today is quite different than what is sought after in jumpers and dressage. There are things that do not affect a race horses soundness or ability that can be career killers for a dressage horse or jumper, like neck set or a slightly straighter hock.
People spend billions on the thoroughbred industry in this country alone. No one wants a defective product. And no one wants their horse to die on the track. I have unfortunately witnessed too many catastrophic breakdowns in my lifetime. There are some that, in retrospect, you can say, “the signs were there.” Most are just a perfect storm of bad luck. If it was a simple as being able to point to one single thing (like conformation) to prevent them all, believe me, folks would be all over it. But it’s just not that simple. Stallions or mares that produce a truly unsound race horse do not last long in this country.
As a warmblood purist, I know none of this will change your opinion. I don’t expect it to. All of this also has NOTHING to do with the mare in question. But I felt like this little tangent was important, maybe just for my sake. The racing industry is far from perfect, but in my experience, I’ve found that no horse industry is perfect. And then there’s something about people in glass houses…[/QUOTE]
All this is BS in my opinion excepting the fact that it made you feel better.
There are no conformational guidelines in TB breeding. Just look at the triple crown races this year. Almost every horse coming to start gate had horrendous leg conformation. Legs going in every direction but straight !
Almost all WB studbooks have breeding stock INSPECTIONS. Horses get graded and breeders informed. If they choose to breed a sub par conformed mare , then that’s on them but they were certainly told they had a problem.
TB breeding for racing is terrible in my opinion. They have a lifespan of about 2-5 years in their sport. There are many 17 - 20 year old jumpers still competing a the very top of the sport , so don’t tell me that we don’t breed for longevity.
Did I tell you that you don’t breed for longevity? Don’t put words in my mouth.
Race horses have always had a career span of about 2-5 years in the sport, since the beginnings of the thoroughbred breed. It takes many more years to develop and train a jumper. The sports are apples and oranges when it comes to the age at which the horse is at its competitive prime. It doesn’t make one sport better than the other.
There are no inspections in thoroughbred breeding, true. But that does not mean that there is no standard for conformation.
I’m not sure you and I were watching the same Triple Crown this year. “Almost every horse coming to start gate had horrendous leg conformation. Legs going in every direction but straight !” Now that’s a hyperbole if I’ve ever heard one. And I’ve actually seen many of these horses up close and in person.
You hate thoroughbreds and hate racing, I get it. I hate arrogant people who cast judgement on things they have no experience with. I also hate iced tea, while we’re on the subject.
so I’m guessing Bayhawk is not a fan of thoroughbreds much… I had to read between the lines but that’s my take. Eeeeesh.
Now I gotta go back to the Derby videos and watch the horses loading to see their legs.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8748944]
All this is BS in my opinion excepting the fact that it made you feel better.
There are no conformational guidelines in TB breeding. Just look at the triple crown races this year. Almost every horse coming to start gate had horrendous leg conformation. Legs going in every direction but straight !
Almost all WB studbooks have breeding stock INSPECTIONS. Horses get graded and breeders informed. If they choose to breed a sub par conformed mare , then that’s on them but they were certainly told they had a problem.
TB breeding for racing is terrible in my opinion. They have a lifespan of about 2-5 years in their sport. There are many 17 - 20 year old jumpers still competing a the very top of the sport , so don’t tell me that we don’t breed for longevity.[/QUOTE]
there are horrible examples of conformation in every breed of sport. i’ve seen holsteiners with crooked front legs and backs longer than a submarine. holsteiners in UL that look like they were assorted by six different horses, nevermind two. no breed is exempt from flaw. so what’s your point?
one only needs to look at the top horses in the sport of jumping and you will see the age-old ideal for conformation is quite outdated.
comparing HOL conformation to race-bred TB conformation is a fool’s errand and of all people, you, being the unremitting Expert Of All Conformation, should understand that the conformation needed for speed and stamina is very different than the conformation needed for dressage or jumping. the most flawlessly conformed HOL wouldn’t stand a chance in a race against an average TB - not even a brilliant one would be needed to outperform a HOL in racing. in that same vein i would never expect a race-bred TB to be able to outperform a HOL purpose bred for jumping. they are bred for different purposes and will always have different conformation because of it. there is no one conformational ideal that will encompass all disciplines, period.
please, kindly, provide the conformation pictures of all of these horses with crooked legs in the TC. crooked legs is not a conformation issue that runs rampant in the TB breed. how can you even tell if their legs are crooked in all of that commotion, dirt and wraps? lower set neck, higher hind end are typical of the successful TBs in the breed, yes – but crooked legs i have seen few and far between.
these TBs that were bred for racing go on to long careers in second, third, and fourth disciplines - many TBs that turf race go to steeplechasing, to eventing homes, to hunt homes, jumpers, pony clubs, etc. these are horses that were not purpose-bred for those endeavors, yet all the same you see them live long and successful lives in their second/third/fourth disciplines. they fill a very distinct niche and are very long lived.
my advice for you would be to spend some time researching the top stallions in the TB sport and familiarizing yourself with their conformation, and the conformation needed for speed. many of them absolutely embody that conformation. stop comparing their conformation to HOL conformation – you wouldn’t expect a cart horse to have the same conformation as a jumper, would you?
it is not the conformation flaws that cause breakdowns in TBs - put a HOL in a TB’s place and the same thing will happen (and probably sooner) – it’s speed.
the constant anti-TB diatribe in your posts really gets exhausting - especially when you are criticizing an entire industry with one broad, very generalized and hyperbolic brush.
Back to a previous post - if the TB Sporthorses were bred for sport and had inspections, pedigree analysis, sport trials etc. we would have a TB sport horse.
A TB has so many qualities but hard to find a good type.
Performance Horse Registry attempted to sort this, but somehow has disappeared.
Also, steeplechase horses have long careers at the top of their sport. Take Grand National, 14 - 16 years old and if they need a year off for rehab they get it.
My eye still, after all these years, judge horses as close to the ideal TB as possible even if they are warmbloods.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8748983]
there are horrible examples of conformation in every breed of sport. i’ve seen holsteiners with crooked front legs and backs longer than a submarine. holsteiners in UL that look like they were assorted by six different horses, nevermind two. no breed is exempt from flaw. so what’s your point?
one only needs to look at the top horses in the sport of jumping and you will see the age-old ideal for conformation is quite outdated.
comparing HOL conformation to race-bred TB conformation is a fool’s errand and of all people, you, being the unremitting Expert Of All Conformation, should understand that the conformation needed for speed and stamina is very different than the conformation needed for dressage or jumping. the most flawlessly conformed HOL wouldn’t stand a chance in a race against an average TB - not even a brilliant one would be needed to outperform a HOL in racing. in that same vein i would never expect a race-bred TB to be able to outperform a HOL purpose bred for jumping. they are bred for different purposes and will always have different conformation because of it. there is no one conformational ideal that will encompass all disciplines, period.
please, kindly, provide the conformation pictures of all of these horses with crooked legs in the TC. crooked legs is not a conformation issue that runs rampant in the TB breed. how can you even tell if their legs are crooked in all of that commotion, dirt and wraps? lower set neck, higher hind end are typical of the successful TBs in the breed, yes – but crooked legs i have seen few and far between.
these TBs that were bred for racing go on to long careers in second, third, and fourth disciplines - many TBs that turf race go to steeplechasing, to eventing homes, to hunt homes, jumpers, pony clubs, etc. these are horses that were not purpose-bred for those endeavors, yet all the same you see them live long and successful lives in their second/third/fourth disciplines. they fill a very distinct niche and are very long lived.
my advice for you would be to spend some time researching the top stallions in the TB sport and familiarizing yourself with their conformation, and the conformation needed for speed. many of them absolutely embody that conformation. stop comparing their conformation to HOL conformation – you wouldn’t expect a cart horse to have the same conformation as a jumper, would you?
it is not the conformation flaws that cause breakdowns in TBs - put a HOL in a TB’s place and the same thing will happen (and probably sooner) – it’s speed.
the constant anti-TB diatribe in your posts really gets exhausting - especially when you are criticizing an entire industry with one broad, very generalized and hyperbolic brush.[/QUOTE]
No one used the world Holsteiner but you. There is no comparison ,why are you making one ?
I’m not anti-TB . I’m anti breeders not giving a damn about the the horse they breed. Most only care if it goes fast and lives 2-5 years. After that , the world is flooded with rescues and adoptions.
Breakdowns are not soley due to speed. Poor conformation has as much to do with them as the speed , and when the two are combined…deadly.
Last word is yours. I’m done with this nonsense. Carry on…
It’s funny how there is an entire organization devoted to nothing but gathering and analyzing data on breakdowns who does not agree with your simple conclusion.
Maybe they should hire you. You could save them a lot of time.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8749020]
No one used the world Holsteiner but you. There is no comparison ,why are you making one ?
I’m not anti-TB . I’m anti breeders not giving a damn about the the horse they breed. Most only care if it goes fast and lives 2-5 years. After that , the world is flooded with rescues and adoptions.
Breakdowns are not soley due to speed. Poor conformation has as much to do with them as the speed , and when the two are combined…deadly.
Last word is yours. I’m done with this nonsense. Carry on…[/QUOTE]
you don’t have to mention HOL – i’ve seen enough of your posts to know that when you say a TB is horribly conformed, you are comparing them to the ideal of the holsteiner verband – which is very, very different. of course they aren’t going to embody your classic ideal, they were bred for an entirely different purpose.
there are lots of fantastically conformed race-bred TB stallions out there that many people, including breeders of WB, can say have good conformation. petionville, say florida sandy, stonesider, giant’s causeway, saddlers well, i could go on but i think people would get the point.
i’ll sit here and wait for you to come back for the last word, as you always do. :winkgrin:
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