I have to say I thought of this thread at work today. I went to our medical oncology department to get a dog for its radiographs. They had 6 dogs in the department for treatments/work-ups and the dogs were having the BEST time! It was like a day at the dog park! No owners around and they were playing, getting attention…like the best day ever, despite being treated for cancer. “The BACK” is not a bad place…
My opinion will not be a popular one, coming from the veterinarian’s point of view. But I have to agree with a few points made earlier.
It is against OSHA standards (i.e. the law) to have owners come back to the radiology area where x-rays are taken. Proper radiation safety protocols MUST be followed, and I do not want to be liable for exposing someone to radiation who can’t stand to be away from their pet for the 5 minutes it takes to take radiographs.
Your pet is often better behaved AWAY from you. This is not ALL pets, I realize, but there are many dogs who are protective of their owners and who are absolute angels when there is no one they think they have to protect. Most animals are so stressed the minute they walk in the vet they don’t care whether their owner is with them or not.
If you insist on being present for everything, you will NOT restrain your own pet for an exam (if they are trying to bite), procedure, or treatment. If they choose to bite, you will not expect it, and you will be bitten. It doesn’t matter if you think it’s ok; if things go south for any reason and a lawsuit is involved, the vet will lose every time. It is below standard of care to put owners in harm’s way, even if it started out with good intentions. My nurses are trained to restrain properly, and that’s that. I will use muzzles to protect my staff if necessary, and if a pet is clearly stressed for a procedure, I will use sedation as needed or local anesthetic to make it less stressful and easier for all.
Most times things go VERY smoothly, and we are able to be more efficient by doing things “in the back” where all supplies are readily available and we are set up for doing things in an expedient way. I do not want to separate a pet and an owner any longer than necessary, but I do want to make sure things are done properly. I would love to have my patients love and appreciate me, but that’s not my job. I want to make them better, make them healthy, and get them back to their families as soon as possible. If I have to be the “bad” guy sometimes, it’s ok. Returning a pet to an owner and having the pet ecstatic to see them feels really good to me. And it makes a positive association between the owner and the pet, not a negative one. Of course, there is no 100% rule for everyone, and there are some situations where the pet is always better with the owner. But if my ability to provide the best care for the pet is hampered by the owner’s hangup about having their pet leave their sight, then they can find another vet.
I had a similar situation earlier this week. A puppy was vomiting who was known to eat everything under the sun in the yard. It was really sick, and I wanted to take radiographs of the abdomen. The owner did not want it to leave his sight, and I could not have him come back to the radiology area just because he wanted to. There was no medical reason for it – the puppy was so ill, it didn’t care where it was. He nearly left without any treatment (but yelled at me that I didn’t know what was wrong…?) because he wouldn’t let me do a test that was necessary. If I had sent them on their way and the puppy had a major blockage I didn’t identify, I would have felt terrible. All for what? Stupid.
Anyway, that’s my rant, take it as you may. We don’t mishandle animals; we all have our own that we would want treated the same way. But we have a responsibility to provide the best medical care possible. We try to make every experience as pleasant as possible, but animals in pain or that don’t feel well often don’t make it easy. We will keep you, as pet owners, included as much as possible. From the veterinary industry…your cooperation is appreciated.
My family has taken our pets to the same vet’s office for 28 years now. I’m not bothered by the cats getting shots, but if it’s stitches or drawing blood, I’ll voluntarily leave the room, because I get freaked out. It’s rare that they need to take the cat to ‘the back’, but I know that if they do, there’s a reason for it. I’m not a vet or a tech, so why should I go back there?
Thank you Jherold for stating the real reason. I have extreme allergies to the bloodsuckers known as insurance companies
I told the tech last year that my dog was stressed. I saw it in his eyes and his ears. Mind you I was letting the vets techs hold him. I told her to talk to him and stoke him. When he did I saw his stress go down. Sorry. I don’t think techs are the end and be all. Maybe this is because I compete him and train him and know him better than Julie the generic technician?
It all comes back to trust. In both directions. New vets don’t know me; once they know me they trust me and vice versa. If I couldn’t trust the vet and/or the techs I’d find another place. But building trust takes time. If you don’t trust them blindly from the get-go, well, then, you understand why they don’t trust you, either, blindly from the get-go. Sometimes we forget that although we are all-knowing when it comes to animals :lol: a veterinary practice sees literally dozens of owners every single day and I’d bet the majority of these people are not the best animal handlers or animal understanders, etc. So I totally see where the vets are coming from.
Definitely, trust must be built bilaterally. And I’m sure they see plenty of idjits. The pure ignorance among patients that I type on every single day is mindboggling to me. People who don’t even remember what their major surgery six WEEKS ago was!!! Or have zero idea of their meds, the same ones they take every day. I know how many of those are out there. But they ARE NOT EVERYBODY.
I want a vet or doctor who is open, from the first encounter, to evaluate THIS owner/patient as an individual, even if the last 19 seen were ignorant and deluded. It’s a slight attitude difference, but it’s there. There is a big difference between, “Most owners/patients I see are ignorant and don’t know anything at all, even what they think they do, so I am automatically assuming that you are the same from the git-go until you with great difficulty convince me otherwise” and “Most owners/patients I see are ignorant and don’t know anything at all, even what they think they do, but I don’t know you yet, so I am at this point neutral in attitude and will consider without prejudice the evidence and impression I’m getting from you in our interactions.”
I do not want nor expect blind trust from a vet/doc. Blind trust would be assuming that everybody is a great owner/patient from the git go, which would be a disaster. I expect and want NEUTRALITY in their initial evaluation, changing as the evidence on me comes in. If I demonstrate myself to be an idjit, they’re quite welcome to slap on the label. But I resent having that label slapped on the minute I as new to the practice step through their door just because the majority of patients/owners they see are idgits. In other words, don’t label automatically and make the current new patient have to peel that label off. Hold a blank label and wait for the current new patient to exhibit what sort of label it needs to be, then fill it in appropriately and slap it on.
If you prefer the “everybody is labeled an idiot and treated as such from the moment they walk in and must then disprove it” approach to the “what sort of patient/owner are YOU? I’m willing to learn this” approach, that’s absolutely your right, but I would not stay at your practice.
I went to yesterday’s doc appointment with the attitude of, “What sort of doctor are YOU?” Not with, “You must be an idiot, because so many other docs are.” Not with, “You must be God, because so many other docs are.” Straight down the middle, waiting for evidence, and willing to be convinced by that evidence either way. I expect that much consideration in return.
Great post pancakes - I totally agree with your point of view 
[QUOTE=Pancakes;7178546]
My opinion will not be a popular one, coming from the veterinarian’s point of view. But I have to agree with a few points made earlier.
It is against OSHA standards (i.e. the law) to have owners come back to the radiology area where x-rays are taken. Proper radiation safety protocols MUST be followed, and I do not want to be liable for exposing someone to radiation who can’t stand to be away from their pet for the 5 minutes it takes to take radiographs.[/QUOTE]
Very good point. I just want to clarify that the owner would be brought back AFTER the rads are taken.
[QUOTE=wsmoak;7168078]
If I bring in multiple kitties they’ll usually put me in an exam room and take them back one by one to get weighed, then bring them back into to the room for shots…
This is a high volume large and small animal practice, so they do what needs to be done to get everybody seen…[/QUOTE]
This is how our vet clinic works. They put you in the exam room with your animals, then the tech takes them to their treatment area for blood, weighing, urine sample then brings them back to the exam room for the physical, EKG, shots and to discuss any changes, treatment etc. They are very thorough and treat the animals with care. Part of taking them to a treatment area is they have all the equipment handy rather than stocking every exam room with equipment.
[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7177467]
Side benefit- when done ‘in the back’ without owner present, the painful and unpleasant procedure is not associated with the owner. I want to be associated with security and comfort, not needles and anesthesia.
It is nice to not be the one causing your animal pain. Restraining my dog so a stranger can shove a needle in his vein seems so deceptive and unfair. When I’ve thought about it, I would rather someone else be the bad guy who restrains or sticks (thermometers might as well be needles to dramatic Joey) so his trust in me remains in tact.[/QUOTE]
This is so true, and something people don’t think of.
This goes hand in hand with what was said above. It’s not nearly as comforting to your ‘fur kid’ as you think it is to have you standing there while something scary is happening to them. The look of, “Mom, I can’t believe you brought me here,” would bother me much more than letting one of my babies out of my sight in the hands of professionals I’ve picked and built a relationship with.
It is nice to not be the one causing your animal pain. Restraining my dog so a stranger can shove a needle in his vein seems so deceptive and unfair. When I’ve thought about it, I would rather someone else be the bad guy who restrains or sticks (thermometers might as well be needles to dramatic Joey) so his trust in me remains in tact.
This in spades. I am a veterinarian and when at all possible I don’t restrain my own animals or do procedures on them myself. They are no calmer with me there, and having me in the room just makes it more stressful on me, the other doctors and technicians. We all feel guilty when our animals are nervous or need restraint - but it’s necessary for their health and the staff’s safety.
I work 3rd shift in the ICU at a busy speciality/ER facility. The biggest reason why we bring animals to the back instead of doing it all in the room is staffing and equiptment. There are times when there is just myself, one other tech and the Dr in the building. We have to field phone calls, check in and out clients, treat the out-patients and make sure the ICU is attended to.
If I have to help another tech while they come to me I can still keep one eye on all my patients. If I have to go into the room to help because you won’t leave your pet alone? My ICU could be left unattended for up to 10 minutes.
If your pet needs to be hospitalized we never deny someone’s request to see the ICU and where their pet will be spending the night. We don’t want you to feel uncomfortable about leaving. We do have “code words” to let other employees know when a client is in the back, so we can mind our manners. Not because we handle animals differently, but so we put off checking vitals on the dramatic dog who screams bloody murdur when you listen to his heart. And even more so, so we all watch our laungauge. We do get comfortable with the fact that our patients don’t understand us and often have conversations that a lot of owners wouldn’t want to hear about our personal lives.
One of my favorite all time clients though, was one who saw us at our worst. She was sitting quietly in a corner with her dog, on one of the busiest holiday weekends I can remember. She heard the page for a critical patient at the entrance and saw two of us go to help. She saw us come in with the dog, followed by the owner who was loudly yelling about how he would call his Lawyer if we told him again he needed to go up front to full out paperwork. She heard us complain about how we hate clients who start off combative, how we don’t get paid enough to get cussed at like that. And she heard us point out that he’s the one who took his dog on a run at 2pm in the middle of June, no wonder the dog collapsed.
She also watched us drop everything to try and save this dog. She watched us cry while making the pawprint after he died. And she saw us turn around and run off to save the next one in the door.
There wasn’t an employee there that day who didn’t work at least 14 hours straight. The only thing that kept us going was the half a dozen pizzas that showed up randomly. Had it not been for the receptionist who signed for it we would have never known it was from that client.
There are hundreds of reasons why your vet may want to take your pet to the back but I promise you this much. Not a single one of them is with the intent to harm your animal. Sure, people like the woman in the dachund video exist. And at any clinic worth it’s salt she’d have been fired on the spot. The last person we had who treated an animal rough had been with our clinic for 5+ years. But one incident of being rough cost her her job. Good clinics have happy long term employees. Educated employees, who put the effort into becoming licensed and continuing education. Sure, a bad egg could slip into a clinic like that. But they’re not going to be allowed to hurt an animal while everybody sits back and watches. It will be stopped the minute it gets out of hand. Period.
A big reason why we take pets to the back for blood draws or to give fluids or for other treatment is because we simply don’t have the SPACE in an exam room WITH a client in there to have the manpower and the tools to do the job. Further, from a liability standpoint, most pets aren’t exactly appreciative of the process and when the owner wants to stick their hand into the mix, we’re worried about the owner being bitten.
Another consideration is that a lot of people seem very averse to seeing their pet properly and safely restrained. Many pets have an aversion to restraint but have also been rewarded for negative behavior by an owner who is constantly saying “Good dog” when the dog is actually trying to EAT US. When we have to muzzle and restrain a dog for a simple nail trim and the owner is sitting there saying “good boy” well, Houston, we have a bit of a problem. Not a good dog per se.
I dunno. I prefer to be present for my dog’s treatment. So I get that. But I think that a handful of owners make that nearly impossible for the rest. We have to keep the staff and the animal safe and as calm as possible. A lot of owners don’t make that easy when they are present.
[QUOTE=sk_pacer;7168140]
Saw one woman go hysterical at the sight of testicles sitting quietly in a pan. [/QUOTE]
That wouldn’t bother me at all. Testicles sitting noisily in a pan? That would probably freak me out.
I realize how lucky I am - small practice, wonderful caring vet with a staff who he has had for years - and years. He is so busy, he does not need to have clients who second guess his judgement and he treats us wonderfully, and would go the ‘extra mile’ for us if we needed it…but we would try never to ask for that special favour. We have used him for 25 years and dread the time he may think he should retire. Yelling, firm voices would have no place there -
its a joke a minute.
I can not conceive of suing my vet because my dog it me. I also would not have any issue with using a cat bag.
I can understand why there are procedures in place and I know I personally would not have the patience to deal with the general public and their pets if I were a vet.
My solution to the ‘back room’ question is to go to a vet and stick with that vet in order to develop a relationship where the trust goes both ways. If they want to take my animal in the back room, I am ok with that.
They also know I do not interfere, I do not insist on restraining my animals unless they ask me to. Sometimes they do. I do not have a problem if they take my male in the back room for blood because he can be a real jerk when I am in the room. I am sure that he has been a real jerk when they have taken him in the back. They do not take him there so I do not see, they take him back because whatever they need to do is easier back there and it is an added bonus that he is better for some things if I am not present.
Since I have found a practice I like and taken the time to get to know them and let them get to know me, they know I am not squeamish nor am I bothered by any of their restraint techniques. Nor am I swayed by my drama queen male when he behaves as though he is killing them. So they have no worry that I am fretting over them just doing their jobs in the most efficient and compassionate way. And sometimes the most compassionate way is the quickest but not the quietest.
For those who vet hop, you miss the opportunity to develop the relationship. The vet and their staff need to trust you just as much as you need to trust them. Yes you may be the paying client but you can not get around the fact that the relationship with your vet is a two way street.
Chiming in here with other vet techs. I’ve just registered, but have been lurking for a while and had such a blast reading the Florida trainer, Child in my pasture and some other classic threads (including some without drama and including actual useful info) that I just had to register.
I work 2 jobs, one in a medium sized practice where we do everything in front of owners, and my other job is at a 24 hour ER facility where we typically will take animals to the back.
People looove being there when we take blood or do other procedures at my non-ER job. Until they realize that when their cat is restrained, he turns into a furious screaming blender and needs to be restrained by 3 people while someone tries to stick a needle into his veins. 1) not fun for anyone, techs or owner to see this and 2) more pressure and stress on us, because obviously we’re being watched and live-commented by an owner who’s obviously anxious and surprised that kitty could EVER do this. Now this happens a few times a day. Let’s not mention the snappy princess dog who tries to eat everyone’s face, clings onto it’s owner and once the owner leaves, turns into a docile angel…
Now at my ER job, some people are upset that we take animals to the back, but our supplies, treatment table, lab and extra staff are there. Can’t fit all that into an exam room at once. Lots less drama from stressed owners stressing out their pets, no fainting/I need a drink of water owners that can’t stand blood (it’s happened!) and just generally things get done a lot faster, and no one gets tortured, manhandled or beaten up (except us sometimes, we have scars to prove it).
I totally understand the owner’s point of view, and if my pets were not treated at my own work, often by me, I would very likely prefer to be there during procedures. But for those clinics where pets are taken to the back, it just makes things more simple for everyone, most of the time. If we do this job, it’s not because we take pleasure in torturing animals, we’d be working in a slaughterhouse instead!
ETA: we’ve had one owner badly bit by her cat while she was trying to soothe it by petting his face while we were taking blood (she was clearly told to keep her hands away from his face/feet). Thankfully she did ok (surgical scrub and antibiotic ointment was applied immediately, but had the bite gotten infected and god forbid she lost her finger, she could very well have sued us.
I wonder why vets do not have all clients sign a waiver to be kept in their file saying that if they are bitten, scratched or otherwise injured by their pet or anyone else that they are SOL.
It’s a little different, but I’m a nurse and I’ve kicked family out of the room when I’m trying to do a blood draw on someone who doesn’t have an IV placed. I’m a pretty damn good stick, and I usually enjoy an audience to chat with (helps the patient stay calm), but when something about the family puts me on edge, I’m no longer able to do my best work and I have them step out for a few minutes so I can focus on what’s important: doing good work, and keeping myself and the patient safe.
ETA: In OB, if a family elects to have the baby circumcised before leaving the hospital, the baby is taken away for 15 minutes to have it done. Where I did my rotation, parents were not allowed to come because moms typically didn’t do well hearing the baby cry, and dad’s got a little too empathic and tended to get dizzy. For the record, every baby I saw cried before the procedure, never during, and hardly after. And the reason they were crying is because they objected to the little carrier they were placed in so they would stay in one position during the procedure for safety’s sake, not because of any pain. Because I was an extra set of hands in the room, most babies didn’t even cry before the procedure because I was in a position to let them suck on my gloved finger (dipped in sugar water) while the nurse and doc were doing the final check of supplies, five rights (or is it 7 now?), etc.
My vet does most of our stuff in the exam room with us, but a few times the cat or dog has been taken to the back for a little and I’m a-okay with that. I’ve got a good stomach and their pitiful noises doesn’t really bother me, but I’m pretty sure it’s getting done much faster in the back than it would be in the exam room. I always let my vet set the tone of how involved I should be with my horses during the exam.
