Vet takes animal 'to the back'

I am rather surprised by the number of responses that seem to indicate that the OP should have more trust in her vet and accept that the animal be taken to the back.

I work in a pediatric hospital, and I feel as absolutely confident as I can that our patients are treated carefully and well, yet it surprises me and even concerns me when parents choose to leave their children during minor medical procedures. I do understand if the parent is unable to handle it due to sensitivity to blood, fainting, etc, but otherwise I really don’t…and in this case I am talking about patients that can talk.

That said, I understand pets are not children, but for many of us, they a very important and critical part of our lives and their well-being in of utmost importance. My father is a small animal vet, and he is very comfortable with the care of every animal in his multi-vet practice, but even he is uncomfortable with his pets being “taken to the back” if he is at an out of state specialist…vacation, etc where vet care is needed. Luckily, he is usually invited to the back since he is a vet.

My understanding of this practice (taking to the back) is that it allows many vets to use less staff (staff don’t have to come to the room), use less space, and move faster which are all valid explanations. I also understand that there are certainly some difficult clients (the people) when it is probably easier to have the pet separated from the owner. And definitely some cases where the owner would prefer not to be present.

That said, not being able to be with my pet at the vet even when I think I trust them is a huge concern for me. I am pretty easy to please, don’t speak up unless someone has really done something wrong, and follow directions well. But, like the OP, I interview my vets and find out what they are comfortable doing in the room and what they are not since I do not have the luxury of living in the same town as my father anymore.

I don’t buy the previous posts that state that restraining is fine and looks terrible so they don’t want owners to see it. I think any vet should be comfortable with the owner knowing and seeing everything that is done to the pet (despite knowing that practicality reasons of space, time, staffing make this not possible for some vets). If they are not comfortable with the client knowing what is happening with the pet (exactly), that raises a HUGE red flag for me.

In my father’s practice (of many vets), each vet has a tech that is available to assist them in the room with pets. They do not allow the owner to restrain his/her own pet due to insurance and liability reasons. But, they do allow the owner to be present and do blood draws, vaccines, etc in the room, unless it makes the owner uncomfortable. They strongly believe that in most cases pets do better when they are with their owners and having pets be comfortable is part of the experience they want their patients to have.

They too, need to frequently take animals to the treatment area for other procedures. But, they allow owners to come back with their pets and watch…again, not allowed to restrain, etc. They believe in a transparent model of care. They have actually talked about putting everything on video camera and
making it available for clients to see from the waiting room and exam rooms (to address the concerns about space and time management (I think all have that). They believe that if they are doing anything they are not comfortable with others seeing, they should not be doing it that way. By the same token, their surgery and dental areas have big windows open to the main street. They would prefer these would be open (with people able to see in) during surgeries, unless it is trauma with a lot of blood, etc. From their perspective, there are no liability issues with having owners “in the back” as long as they do not restrain. Of course no owners can be present for x-rays and chemo (which can be watched through a window). Of course, all of the above said, there are many owners that don’t care to come with their pet to the treatment area or can’t handle it…which is of course fine.

At my father’s practice, there is not a lot of noise, cats are separated from dogs and the stress level is kept down. It is a rare event to hear barking, whining, or crying dogs due to the management practices they use and of course very good pain management for pets that are hurting.

From this perspective, I now live in another city with multiple supposedly great vets (based on hospital certifications, trainings, etc which are standards I am familiar with). I still find it very concerning when I take my pet/s somewhere and here loud voices, barking dogs, and meowing cats from the exam rooms. I am even more concerned if I hear that from any of my pets as I know this is not their norm (from past experience) when treated compassionately and with their stress in mind.

We have a specialty clinic where I live now that is renowned, certified, brand new, clean, etc. that I only take my pets to under extreme duress which is something I have some mixed feelings about as I want my animals to have the best trained, quality, and compassionate care and I want the vets to have the staff and equipment to do the best job.

Not taking my pets there is not about the price (which is a lot more and is a huge chunk of my budget…but vet care is one of the things I value and budget for most). It is because even though I do “in theory” trust them and believe they do a good job, they are not transparent with what they do. They, like my father, have techs that follow each vet. They will not do ANY procedures in the room under any circumstances. They cannot give a reasonable rational why (i.e. it is not liability). They will not do shots, pill a cat, draw blood, take temp, etc.). They also will not allow you to visit your (in their case since they are specialty, always extremely sick pet for than 30 minutes between 4:00 PM and 6:00 PM if they are hospitalized…regardless of if you have to work or not. They only provide one phone update a day even for very critical pets…unless you pet has updated lab work or is about to die…etc. That said, out of all of the vet shopping and interviewing I have done…this is where I would believe my pets would get the best medical treatment. My father believes the same but even he feels that I should look elsewhere unless their super specialty equipment is needed as they are not at all transparent in this regard are not owner focused. I don’t imagine for one second they are hurting or abusing animals in the back (not that I would know), but I do know that for at least one of my pets, my presence in the room (again, I don’t expect to restrain, pet, baby talk) is helpful and I WANT to be there, at minimum during routine things like blood draws, temperature taking, etc. I would rather be there for everything, but I do understand that some hospitals are not set up for that.

The place mentioned above also happen to be one of the only 24 hour emergency groups nearby. When I needed to have my cat put to sleep at 2:00 on the morning (luckily I had called ahead in expectation of this in the preceding weeks), I did not go to them, even though they would have otherwise been my top choice, as they would not allow me to be present when the IV was placed. I went to a much lower quality emergency care center where they were comfortable placing the IV in the room so that I did not have to leave my cat at all in his last hour.

More recently, I took another cat for emergency care, to yet another clinic where the equipment is less good, the staff is less knowledgeable…but willing to discuss when they have reached the end of their competence and make recommendations…again because I was not comfortable with the policies of not being around during medical procedures.

I pay a lot when I pay for vet care, and I don’t think it is unreasonable to be privy to what is happening to my pets. I want to be there. It matters to me. I think it should matter to more people…much in the same what that I am present when my horse is treated by the vet or held for the farrier. I trust my equine vet completely and there have been times when she comes out with her assistant when it is not possible for me to be there (i.e. her schedule and my work schedule) but it is appropriate for me to be there, it helps me to know what is going on, it allows me to ask treatment related questions, etc). It helps me to observe changes in my horse’s behavior. I would be very concerned if I was told I could NOT be present in this situation, and I feel the same with small animal vets.

That said, I try to be extremely respectful of space, time, staff considerations (which are valid if not ideal reasons for “going to the back”) but I don’t like these reasons either and realize that in lieu of them I pay more. This is one of the reasons I often find myself driving hours for my “pets” to visit my father’s clinic. I know I get special treatment, but it is in line with the special treatment that I see every pet there get.

If people can be quiet, respectful, calm, and unobtrusive, I see no reason why at least all routine care for the average pet cannot be done in their presence. Clearly, I am in minority on this board and in my city that believe that BUT I do. I know a lot of it is because I was brought up in an ideal model of vet practice and my standards are high. I am always on the look out for a better fit for more of my ideal vet in my city, but for right now I pick transparency and low stress and compassion for my animals even over what I perceive to higher quality medicine which is VERY important to me. I do think if people expected more from their vets it might change this practice.

[QUOTE=sketcher;7191454]
I wonder why vets do not have all clients sign a waiver to be kept in their file saying that if they are bitten, scratched or otherwise injured by their pet or anyone else that they are SOL.[/QUOTE]

It would not be considered adequate. The thinking is that “the veterinarian is a professional and should know better”

To each their own - we should all take out pets to practices where we are comfortable with how things are done.

Again from a tech standpoint - not every client is respectful of our space and work. Some people are downright hysterical when it comes to poking a hole in their animals. You’ve also got the dog owners who are so stressed out their dog gets defensive - ask them to leave, the dog chills out and everything is done in a minute, and the owners are surprised Fluffy didn’t bite anyone and things went great. I’m not making these examples up. These people are the reason may practices choose to take pets to the back, on top of practicality for staff/equipment/space.

Working with the public is really great but often also tiring and stressful. Having 5 minutes in the back with your pet also allows us to catch a break… Yes the most stressful thing about this job is not the angry cat or fearful dog - it’s the people!

Now mind you I do spent most of my work days at the smaller, “transparent” practice - so transparent we’ve even had owners on the other side of the window during exceptional surgeries (the type where an elderly pet has a giant mass that may or may not be cancerous and where owner is choosing to possibly not wake up the pet from surgery).

Ciscolark, your father’s practice sounds great, but open to the street surgery? Not everyone wants to see their pet sliced open and testicles on the way out, or getting their rotten teeth drilled out! But that is 100% transparency…

I think that many of your points are quite valid and I think it’s wise to find a practice that fits you best and that you have confidence in.

But I’d like to address the staffing thing…

I’ve worked or volunteered in multiple clinics in different states and abroad–6 in total over the last 20 years–so I don’t have as much experience as some, BUT…in every single one, there was a tech or assistant assigned to the doctor seeing appointments, two to any doctor doing procedures, and typically one “back” person to float as needed per every two doctors on staff. And these were not at emergency/critical care facilities.

At my current clinic, we always have one person “shadowing” a doctor. All 3 of the docs I work with now prefer to only call a staff member in when they need assistance with restraint. Else they prefer to do the majority by themselves, especially with cats. Else, we get beeped in for about 5 min of a 30 min appt or are called in to take the pet back for blood draws or treatment. Again, for us that is largely due to space.

In other practices, the tech or assistant was in the room the entire time the patient was.

But never have I been somewhere that pets were taken to the back because we didn’t have sufficient staff.

I dunno. I’m not doubting that it’s been your experience. But it’s not been mine.

I truly feel ciscolark and I are on the same wavelength!

I so totally agree with everything you have said! I am so fortunate to have a wonderful vet, a couple, one specializes in Therio and the other in sports med and is a genius in surgury and diagnostics. They are like family, in that of course I go back with the hounds and am not separated except for actual surgery, which I watch through a window or am welcome to be there if masked etc. I sit with them while they recover from anesthesia.

But they are an hour an a half away. My local vet is good now, they know I prefer to remain in the room with the the wolfhounds while they draw blood, etc., and are absolutely fine with that. I think actually they would have a difficult time leading a wolfhound away from me and managing it. They know I can hold off a vein, or help with restraint, they’ve never offered any objection.

I absolutely hate going to the vet school or a specialty hospital, which you sometimes have to do, where they do not know me or my hounds, and always want to take them away. It is always a trade off, sometimes you have to, but it always is stressful for the hound and for me when they insist upon this protocol. It is always a last resort for me.

I feel I want to be with them, and they are definitely better when I am there.

I am with you 100%, ciscolark!

Houndhill - your post made me laugh. We have dealt with a lot of wolfhounds, and never ever did I find one get stressed lol, quite the opposite actually… They have all been so calm and easy to work with. We do take a lot to the back for xrays and CT scans where the owner cant be hand holding, one of our “regulars” is so helpful he just hops up onto the xray table on his own and lays down on his side. Such a ham. Too bad we see far too many of these dogs :frowning:

I did 6 of them last week, honestly…not one was difficult to handle away from the owner. They were all very well behaved, lovely dogs.

I bet you would be surprised how well behaved and calm your dogs would be without you :wink: But yes…I understand that you LIKE being with them :slight_smile:

Squish- Exaxtly. Most of the owners we deal with truly believe their dogs are better with them. We actually took the time to video a few of them away from their owners just to show them how much the dogs didn’t care. (Of any breed).

I remember reading about a speciality hospital that had cameras in every room in the back and the clients could watch on CCTV. I really wish our clinic would implement that, minus sound, so clients could actually see 1) how busy we are when it looks slow from the lobby and 2) so we really aren’t abusing the animals.

Another awesome story. We have an exotic animal specialist. She will literally see anything. Was heading up to the lobby as a client was literally DRAGGING his potbellied pig through the back door. I open the lobby doors to a room full of clients who are all appalled by the screaming noises from the back. First thing out of my mouth was “I’m so sorry, it’s a pig.” Evere single client suddenly no longer cared Because of the species…

I’m a vet tech, one of the things I really LIKE about my clinic is they rarely take the animals to the back. I honestly think most animals are calmer with the owners there. There are a select few that aren’t… if its the owner who is riling the animal up we will take it back, but if it is the animal that is trying to protect the owner, we simply politely explain this to the owner and ask them to step outside the room while we do what we need to do. I would say 99% are more than happy to comply when you explain the situation to them.

We will take animals back for more invasive stuff (suturing under a local, for example). But if the owner is queezy about shots/blood draws, we offer for them to step out or they excuse themselves ahead of time. No big deal.

If its a fractious cat, I think most owners are MORE willing to let us restrain the animal when they can watch. Because they can see what we are doing, the techniques we are trying, and be part of the process if need be (by standing in front of the animal and talking to it), they don’t worry so much. If the animal is very difficult to the point where we don’t feel comfortable restraining it around the owner… it probably needs to be sedated anyway.

We’ve even had owners come to the back to help with radiographs with very nervous animals… and then sent them out of harms way after the animal is positioned. It can make for much easier handling, IMO, when the animal has a person there that they know.

Please note, we will take the animal back if the owner is the “emotional” type and either stressing the animal out or stressing everyone else out. But I would say thats once every few months we feel the need to do that. It rarely comes to that. And I think most owners do appreciate being able to be there with their pets. And I think the pets appreciate it too.

I think it’s weird that so many think that people should just hand off their pets that can’t speak for themselves to others without a second thought. It’s not a computer or car that you can connect to a diagnostic device, maybe when you notice something or get a response the owner is reminded of a symptom… I just really believe it should be a group effort and if the owner is happy with the staff taking over the animal then that’s great. If the owner wants to be along then I think they should be allowed to shadow, not to assist (good lord) but be able to see what’s going on… I don’t see how the Dark Curtain makes for better care for the animal. I might sound like a helicopter owner but I’m not at all; I’m cool with letting the tech handle the animal, standing in the corner, quietly, even in the next room watching through a window but to be honest a lot of vet visits I’ve been to the vet is busy and rushed and if you’re going to work in symptoms and history your only chance is during the exam and treatment. I know enough to be dangerous/annoying… I just like to know what’s going on, what we did, what the vet said… if I have to regurgitate it all on COTH Menagerie that night I want to have something more to go on than the article I read in People Magazine while they worked on my dog.

It’s like being a pediatrician. You’re working on innocent dependents that can’t talk-it comes with baggage!

[QUOTE=Horsegal984;7192232]
… I open the lobby doors to a room full of clients who are all appalled by the screaming noises from the back. First thing out of my mouth was “I’m so sorry, it’s a pig.” Evere single client suddenly no longer cared Because of the species…[/QUOTE]

I find their overemotional screams upset everyone, anyway, regardless of species. Today the peace was broken by a sudden screeching PIG SCREAM!!! that echoed across the clinic and into the waiting room. The crime? They were trying to herd a pot-bellied pig onto the weight scales prior to routine castration surgery scheduled for tomorrow. Jeez!

There is a reason vet techs and vets take the animal to the back. Few owners are ok with procedures being done in front of them. I can’t tell you how many times I have been told by an owner that we are holding their animal to much or they don’t like it or they don’t bite. I have been bit by animals because they behave so much worse in front of their owners or I was unable to restrain them because the owner was nuts. I have had owners tell us not to put a muzzle on a dog that was trying to bite us because it was uncomfortable to the dog and I have had owners insist on holding their own animal who ended up scratching, biting and getting away because most owners do not know proper restraint techniques. Nor do owners understand that we have to restrain their animal for both the animal’s safety and our own. So before you jump to conclusion that we are hurting Precious or doing something wrong understand that we spend years in school to learn how to take care of your animal and how to handle them. Our motto is first do no harm and that is what we aim to do. i have had animals scream, pee, defecate and go ballistic before I am even able to get my hands on them. So unless you are a vet tech or veterinarian and do this all day long- you should let us do our job so that we can make your animal better!

blah blah blah

[QUOTE=SquishTheBunny;7192064]
Houndhill - your post made me laugh. We have dealt with a lot of wolfhounds, and never ever did I find one get stressed lol, quite the opposite actually… They have all been so calm and easy to work with. We do take a lot to the back for xrays and CT scans where the owner cant be hand holding, one of our “regulars” is so helpful he just hops up onto the xray table on his own and lays down on his side. Such a ham. Too bad we see far too many of these dogs :frowning:

I did 6 of them last week, honestly…not one was difficult to handle away from the owner. They were all very well behaved, lovely dogs.

I bet you would be surprised how well behaved and calm your dogs would be without you :wink: But yes…I understand that you LIKE being with them :)[/QUOTE]

Oh I know, whenever I have had mine at the vet school or the specialty hospital they have always been very well behaved, and they write things in their records like “What a cool dog!”

I am sure it is usually more stressful for me than them to be taken away, although I have had some who actually were pretty stressed. My nine year old Tulip is that way, has been her whole life, she is not as relaxed and comfortable around unfamilar people as is more typical of the breed although she would not bite or be overtly ill behaved. They are all individuals. Fortunately she has not needed such care, and hopefully never will.

Non horse people drive by, see fly masks, and think they are some sort of cruel blind fold. Those same people think many riding practices are cruel. We, as horse people, roll our eyes at them and hope these people don’t appear at our barns. Can you imagine having to halt a training session with a difficult horse to explain what you’re doing to a frantic onlooker with no riding experience?

People who don’t have vet tech training think restraining, masking, etc. looks cruel. They get similarly hysterical. They are similarly uninformed. Yes, vets can take the time out to explain every last second of what they are doing. That tends to be stressful for everyone involved and is a waste of valuable time, and the reason vet care costs are so darn high.

In the same way that horse people roll their eyes at people who know nothing about horses but step into advocate for them, vet techs frequently roll their eyes at hysterical pet owners who think that precious Fluffy-Woo needs mommy to hold his hand during his rabies vaccine, blood draw, etc.

I wonder how many people posting here about how they would never ever in a million years let their small animal go in back with a VETERINARY PROFESSIONAL have grooms and barn staff who take care of their horses 99% of the time without them supervising. And I wonder how many of those grooms and barn staff have less horse knowledge than the owners. It all seems a little silly to me that we trust the care of our horses to people who are basically strangers, but can’t trust a cat for five minutes to a licensed professional. I won’t even get into the horses who are in full training board…

I wouldn’t go back to a vet that was adamant I couldn’t restrain my dog. To be clear, I’m very, very agreeable with the vet - my dog is muzzled for all hands-on work (she’s never bitten anyone, and it’s more for the vet’s sense of safety than for real bite prevention), I don’t argue if a tech wants to restrain her, I don’t argue if they want to take her in the back for a blood draw, etc. But the attitude that’s coming across in some vents here - owner, just back off, I’m the pro and you need to stand over there and prepare your checkbook - is not professional. I don’t mind that attitude coming from the guy at Pep Boys, but this is a living being and I’m on the hook for every moment of her pain or happiness. You do not assume that I’m a “fur mommy” who’s hysterical.

I’ve never experienced that attitude, happily - I suspect some of the reason is I live in an expensive area with plenty of vets around, and you just can’t treat people who are themselves fairly well-off like that, particularly if you have competition. The last time I experienced medical professionals with that attitude, it was a low-cost dentist who treated clients like cattle because the poor clients had no options.

[QUOTE=vacation1;7194818]
But the attitude that’s coming across in some vents here - owner, just back off, I’m the pro and you need to stand over there and prepare your checkbook - is not professional. [/QUOTE]

You do NOT sound like a hysterical ‘fur mommy’. You sound reasonable. The vents shared here, I imagine, are very different from how these situations are handled when they happen in the office. I have a GREAT deal of frustration over this topic. I also have a GREAT deal of compassion for the hysterical fur mommies when they come into our clinic, and I am often complimented for my empathy and ability to make them feel better when their babies are sick or injured. Don’t mistake venting on an anonymous online forum for a reflection on real life professionalism.

Fur Mommy=not professional.

I have seen the trend in clinics starting to leak out into this sequestering the owner territory and while I completely can see why it’s lovely in a lot of cases; I don’t know that it’s reasonable to expect the pets to check their owners at the door and come on in to the procedure room.

I can TOTALLY see where vets want it to be that easy. But I was always taught by vets and experience that the most difficult part of being a vet was dealing with the humans. There ya go.

I’ve worked for a very exclusive high end Dogs Are The Only Family clinic and owners were not sequestered easily or often… Those peeps tend to be paying more than the average bear and want to be, need to be, more involved. Learn to cope if you want the big money.

I worked as a vet tech

I’ll tell you why we take animals to the back. People are crazy.

To draw blood from a cat, you need to scruff it. Kitty does not appreciate this. It’s not painful, but it looks dramatic. Kitty is held on his side by the scruff of his neck, back supported by your forearm and hind legs pulled straight. You draw from the inside of a back leg. Takes two people. Having a nervous owner hovering does not help.

Dogs usually aren’t too bad. Actually the smaller ones are harder to control. It’s pretty easy to get a large dog restrained. using your body correctly.

We used to draw a fish on the corner of the chart when an owner was particularly fruity. TUNA. A NUT.

Quote: People are crazy.

Correction: SOME people are crazy. Maybe even the majority you see are crazy. But it is not a blind assessment that covers all people.

In 2010, I had to have foot surgery due to a tumor. Turned out to be benign at the moment but could have gone bad, so glad it was out. The foot surgeon recommended wide excision the moment he saw it and admitted that he had no idea what it was. It was on top of a major vein, and he expressed during the initial office appointment that it would likely bleed significantly during the procedure. We scheduled surgery for a week later.

This doc, whom I had been referred to, was already gaining some points with me up front for admitting that he had no idea what it was in those words, not trying to sugar coat things. But I then said that first request, I did not want sedation unless I could not handle the procedure otherwise. Note that I wasn’t saying, “You are not under any circs to give sedation.” I was just saying I didn’t want it arbitrarily. If we start and I can’t handle it, fine. He considered for a moment and then agreed. On to my next request. “In fact, if you don’t mind (note that that WAS a question, if this professionally made him nervous, I would have yielded on this one, as the comfort of the guy with the knife in his hand is something I care about), I would like to watch the surgery live myself.”

He yielded on that one immediately, actually less hesitation than no sedation. I thanked him for being willing to listen to me and not treat me as a stereotypical patient, and he laughed and said, “I’ve been asked that once or twice over the years. Anybody who asks that is going to be just fine with it. I’m not worried about you.” Well, thank you, doc, for recognizing that I am an individual who might not be the average of all of your patients.

During the surgery, I was propped up in beach-chair position and did watch it directly as he did a wide excision, taking roughly half of the flesh on my toe to get clear around this thing. It did indeed bleed a good bit. I found the operation fascinating. At one point during the surgery, he bumped into a nerve that was not adequately blocked under the foot block. I told him so. He commented that had I not said anything, he never would have known, as I did not move a muscle or tighten up. With his hands directly on my foot, he could not tell a reaction, because I had myself in “thou shalt not move” mode. He stopped for more local, and we proceeded afterwards.

Assume another hypothetical conversation: “I don’t want sedation preventatively to start with. If I need it once we’ve started, fine.”

Doc: “No. Nobody can deal with a surgical procedure of any extent without sedation. Insert crazy patient stories 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. I’ve seen so many crazy patients. No. Everybody gets sedation. You have no idea what you’re talking about.” Not in those words, of course, but with that attitude. I would have walked out and looked for another doc.

In that same doc’s office at the first consultation, not when I went to the surgical center for the surgery but just at the office appointment, there was a woman in the waiting room who was all but having a panic attack just at the thought of SEEING the doctor.

I have no doubt if she required a procedure, he would want sedation off the bat. Probably she would have preferred general herself, but if SHE requested no sedation while palpitating and having a pulse of 110 just sitting on the exam table, he probably would have explained gently how much more comfortable, easy, etc., this would be with it. Which is also approaching her as an individual and listening to HER individual physical and attitude feedback, not just smacking the “stereotyped patient” label on before he even laid eyes on her.

When I get up to colonoscopy age, I will tell the GI that I want to start without sedation. If I can’t take it, fine, give it. Have it right there and the IV ready. Not a word of protest. But you aren’t going to give it to me arbitrarily just because you do with everybody. If the doc can’t treat me as an individual in that, I would leave. I know there are docs who WILL approach patients as an individual, because I have typed on several (by far the minority, but several) colonoscopies without sedation at patient request. Incidentally, every last one of those patients who requested no sedation did just fine.

People are individuals. So are pets. I want you to deal with my pet as an individual and pay attention to the feedback, issues, health of MY pet, not treat him automatically as an average of all the pets you see.

Incidentally, I have been with one small animal vet practice for over a decade. They love me. They have never once sent me out of the room, though they have restrained in front of me. If at this point, they said we need to do this nonroutine thing in back, and here are the reasons, I would accept that, because I respect them and I know that they respect me.

But if I had to approach a new vet practice cold, you are not taking my pet away until we both know each other better (that IS bilateral, yes) and I know that to you, I am not “the stereotyped owner.”

Yes, a big part of practice is dealing with the people. The answer to that is not “let’s find a way to never have to deal with treating in front of the people. We don’t care about getting to know you as you. You are crazy, because people are crazy.”