i am not even sure where to or how to start this…Is it a trend to try horses you can t afford? And never had any intention of buying…Is it a trend to say we want to have the horse Vetted and then never schedule a PPE or call back…Its not comforting to hear a buyer share they have tried 60 horses so far…its not comforting to be told they have PPE 5 or mor horses who all failed…Leads one to wonder if your vet is to picky, to worried about CRA or if the buyer just doesn t really want to buy…There is a very competitive market for OTTB today. Its a Buyers market right now but you have to respect the Seller…We spend countless hours answering questions fielding phone calls and never ending text messages, IM 's and PM’s. We all want positive feedback and happy clients, we try to acomidate the customer not ourselves. We do custome photo s and videos and sit waiting for customers to arrive…We are housing feeding shoeing and educating the horse while its for sale…For everyone who actually shows up on time there are 2 who don’t. Now that so much is shared on social media Makes window shopping so tempting.Posting ISO ads asking for info to be sent via IM or PM and then never look at or bother to respond is frustrating. we can check to see if post was seen…Making and cancelling and rescheduling and cancelling appointments, failure to show up or asking to come very last minute is rude and costly. If you buy or are Vetting another horse be courteous and tell the next Seller, When you take a horse on trial be sure to cancel your pending appointment…When we have to put another potential buyer off for your appointment slot then have a no show it costs us. When we pay the farrier for a Sunday to have a lost shoe replaced for a Monday appointment…who cancels last minute it costs us…Cancelling or rescheduling our personal dr appointments or family plans for a customer who fails to show is more frequent than you would expect. For buyers traveling long distance from out of state on tight time lines, try to generously space your appointments and allow ample drive time. Having the horses tried by a never ending string of buyers w/ friends who have to ride the horse and then to discover they don t have the basic purchase price is frustrating…Buyers express frustration if a price isn t listed on line…and when its posted it obviously in some instances makes no difference…While we need buyers to buy the horses, if we ask you if you actually have the “WHOLE” purchase price before you come to try horse don t be offended…There is nothing more satisfying than matching a rider and horse and nothing more gratifying when they go on to do great things together…Just don t treat us like used car salesman or something painful you just have to endure…
Amen!
i really wonder sometimes if people are really shopping…? I mean when I head out with a client they know the reason behind when something does or doesn’t happen. I find shoppers very uneducated in what they are looking at; which leads me to think their trainers aren’t prepping them to what they will encounter.
Yes that FEI horse that is allowing you to do flying changes and halfpass when you are hanging on his mouth and bouncing on his back. “He doesn’t FEEL like an fei horse” is giving you a gift! Your lucky he didn’t just stand there… and he won’t FEEL like an fei horse until YOU can ride it!!
Why I do not sell horses!!
I never looked at a horse outside of my price range. Horse shopping is exhausting. I can see horse selling is even more so. I never wanted to ride horses that I couldn’t afford because I didn’t want to jerk the owner around. Seriously your $50,000 horse is very nice but my budget is $30,00.
As a seller, I really appreciate knowing if the buyer has a budget. I do post prices on my web site and horse sale sites, but some buyers don’t read them or believe they are wishful thinking. Perhaps there is an assumption that because I own a farm, it really doesn’t cost me that much to keep a horse on the payroll.
This weekend I had a perfectly pleasant FB exchange with someone who wants to buy a foal but only had $1500. She thought it was fair because she had found some Welsh cob foals for that price. Now I don’t know what that Welsh cob breeder is doing, but mare care for the pregnancy through weaning costs that much or more. So I suggested that the Welsh cob foal was a bargain and she should go in that direction. It was all very polite and I appreciated her honesty over her budget.
I have an advantage over JBRP in the I sell an uncommon breed that has been gaining increased interest over the years (with a special shout out to Disney). There is more demand than supply for trained riding horses in this breed. In fact, I have no horses of riding age to sell and I am delighted. I completely understand JBRP’s comments because it has happened to me, too. Our time is limited and valuable; I’m okay if you don’t want to buy the horse but please don’t waste lots of my time in the process.
can I add - if you are looking at a horse half way across the country adjust your budget for shipping! Honestly why people seem so surprised that it costs 2 or 3 grand to drive a horse that far?
This…^^. Or just say No Thank You, not what we are looking for and or we will keep looking…NOT…we will call you in a day or 2…or can we set up a vetting for next week…I actually have had people call the local Vet, schedule a PPE and then on the day NOT show up…a few times…they now require you fill on line a form and pre pay w/ CC…so its not uncommon…
That is very unfortunate, and I’m a bit shocked that it is a common occurrence! Unfortunately, if people are inclined to think that that sort of behaviour is acceptable - I’m not sure what can be done or said to prevent it. Some people are just inconsiderate. Every time I think of buying something to potentially ride with a view to resale down the line, I remind myself of how awful people can be.
That said, I think both buying and selling are both tough slogs much of the time. When shopping, I have certainly seen horses that were completely misrepresented, as well as some less egregious example - the smaller “little white lies” regarding height, suitability, etc. There are time wasters on both sides, and it would be nice if everyone just acted professionally.
The pricing issue has multiple “sides” to it, in my view. There are definite tire-kickers out there, and that is frustrating. That said, sometimes a buyer may have the entire asking price available, but, after trying it, may not feel that Horse A is worth the entire asking price. These can be difficult waters to navigate! I do believe that some buyers feel better saying “I can’t afford it” rather than the truth - which is that particular horse is not worth that particular asking price to that particular buyer.
JBRP- are you reading my mind? I know we get knocked for being resellers and someone said this week we are like used car salesman. Perhaps that is how some see us but I am always trying to make the best match in terms of proper homes, the right match, the right career, etc. I have my horses best interest at hand but also the buyers. I honestly will say no if something isn’t a match or won’t work so I don’t waste time of buyers.
I do use facebook and other sources to VET buyers! I agree with every single thing you posted. Lots of tire kickers, vettings scheduled and cancelled, no shows, buyers who think UL horses are perfectly clean so they can’t live with the tiniest things on a vetting and just lots of unrealistic expectations. It is really tough for sellers too. I know for myself I have a full-time job outside of my crazy busy sales business so I am all about not wasting time on either end.
There are some buyers that have gotten a bad rap among the local resellers because they fail everything upon PPE’s not just at one of our barns but at all of them. It becomes exhausting and we no longer want to show them horses. It can be for silly reasons such as a fresh off the track horse flexing 1 out of 5 of hind end flexions (NORMAL!!) and customers that should know this but somehow are looking for magical unicorns.
I offended people because I don’t do deposits and I honor my first come first serve policy regardless of “who you are” because it’s fair and the right thing to do. I don’t do deposits because I found them to be meaningless. I only hold horses if a vetting is scheduled or the horse is paid for in full.
EXACTLY…If I take a deposit and you don t buy the horse the $$ is non refundable…Hence I am reluctant to take one unless the horse has a confirmed PPE set up…I don t hold horses for people because it invariable will cost me a potential client.
Off site trials another mine field. I have offered to make arrangements for buyer to take a horse hunting…With the hunt I go out with…I will let the buyer try the horse here, take a lesson w/ their trainer here or at an indoor local…i will take the horse to Fair Hill so they can go on a trail ride w/ my rider…and meet them at Windurra for a XC or jump school and also take horse to a local indoor…but going forward the Buyer will be responsible for covering shipping and course fees and indoor fees …I have gotten left holding the bag for as many as 3 horses XC schooling at Windurra at a time…@ $60. Per plus shipping and getting 3 horses loaded w/ boots n tack…The costs we don t re coup at sale time…I love hosting customers, have made life long enduring friendships from customers, have many repeat customers…But the current OTTB up surge and the Potential customers who don’t know basic PPE protocol is frightening…a 1 out of 5 is just a variation in gait and not an unsoundness…when a customer asks the Vet what hoof testers are scares me…I could write a story a day and post on FB about this and so could a whole lot of us…LOL…
Absolutely charge for your time and out of pocket costs for off-site trials! An exception being if you do not have riding facilities on your farm that are useable (i.e. no indoor in winter, etc). A buyer should absolutely expect to pay for all costs related to that type of outing, and should be glad that you are willing to arrange it. Asking buyers to pay for it may also help you weed out those who are not serious.
This is absolutely a real scenario. How, as a buyer, do you handle a situation wherein you have found a horse you like and you’d like to make an offer, but you do not agree with the value assessment for whatever reason and will not part with that much $ for that particular horse (even though the money is currently available in your bank account)? Telling the seller “your horse is worth less than you think” is sure to put them on the defensive, and likely will start an argument you don’t care to get into.
Telling the white lie of “I can’t make it work for my budget” puts the “fault” on you, and while the seller may think you are pretty silly for looking at a horse out of your budget, they are more likely to continue negotiations if they are committed to making a sale. This is essentially the same reason that you remain vague when someone says “what’s your budget?” before giving you a price for the horse you are looking at - if you gave a dollar figure, just about every horse you looked at would be priced at no more than $0.05 less than your full number. It removes your ability as a buyer to offer only what you think the horse is worth, not every penny you could possibly make materialize.
Not at all saying you are that seller, but the above is absolutely a scenario I have found myself in before. And have successfully negotiated by claiming budgetary restrictions, to the satisfaction of both myself and the seller. However, the no show thing strikes me as mystifying, and completely unacceptable.
I appreciate a buyer that has a tactful way of making an offer… saying, I really like the horse, but he is just a bit greener than I was anticipating (or insert reason here), would you consider taking $XXXX for him? Blaming lack of funds just makes the seller angry for timewasting and less likely to negotiate, at least in my experience (I’m not quite on par with JLee or JBRP, but I sell my fair share of OTTBs)
On the budget front… I will just say, that I quite often have some VERY nice horses in my barn that are either not for sale, or not quite ready for sale. However, if the buyer lets me know their budget, I am not so crass as to increase the price of the horse they inquired about (really stupid in this time of social media) - BUT I might be inclined to show them one that is nicer, and at a higher price, if I know they have the budget.
I do understand that one can negotiate on price and I certainly have. I think the issue is when the buyer only has X and the seller is asking XX; the gap may be too large to bridge. No point wasting anyone’s time. It also depends how motivated the seller is – some people are pretty desperate to sell; others are not in a hurry. Like I noted before, my prices are published so there is no guessing about what I am asking for the horse.
If you don’t think the price is right, then just say so and move on. I won’t hate you. I’m am totally fine with a buyer making an offer – heck, I got a $1500 offer on a foal this weekend – just as I am fine with politely saying, thanks but no thanks. It is not personal. I am just grateful that the negotiation was online and didn’t waste much time.
Even if you aren’t going to increase the price of the horse, knowing a buyer’s budget affects the entire negotiation process. I will not divulge my budget unless it suits my purposes. That said, I also won’t go see horses that I cannot afford. And despite this rule, I’ve actually bought one that was out of my initial price range. I was looking at another in-budget horse, and was made aware of a second sale horse in the barn. Its a long story, but I did end up buying said out-of-budget horse for a price between the ‘ask’ and my own budget. Many, many buyers are working within a self-determined budget so there is, ultimately, usually some flexibility for the right horse.
And that is the tough part…telling a seller that it is isn’t the right horse for that budget. Its much easier to say that the horse is too small/too big, too strong, too green, than to tell the truth - that the quality of horse is not quite there for the money. I recall trying a horse that met all my requirements - right size, right age, right brain. But the horse was an average, at best, mover and jumper. Nothing wrong with him, and I probably would have enjoyed him - at 80% of the not-flexible asking price. That seller may well have thought I was a tire kicker (in hindsight, my communication was not great), but I wasn’t and ultimately did buy a horse as a result of that shopping process.
IMO, you have the right attitude. We should all strive to be logical and unemotional when it comes to offers/negotiating. Some sellers, however, take offers below the asking price and expressions of disinterest very personally and the results is (1) buyers that feel they can’t be honest/upfront with sellers and (2) sellers that get frustrated dealing with buyers who aren’t upfront/direct.
Really just +1000 to everything @Backstage is saying. It would be easier if we could all just be up front and take the emotions out of it, but until I (as a buyer) can trust that all sellers will conduct themselves like the people on this board, I kind of have to act as if none of them will (until proven otherwise, of course. Reputation works wonders!)
The pricing thing is interesting…Most of use who re sell know what horses are currently selling for in the market at the moment…and what the horse cost us…and when its a horse competing at a certain level in a certain Area it’s pretty easy to find the correct “range” to put your horses price in…I was selling a very big very fancy professionally schooled by (4*) … for $25k and horse worth every dime…client flew in to try the horse and agreed to price if pass a FULL PPE…flexions on 2 surfaces perfect,
physical perfect 1 small notation left butt check a tad flatter than right but not abnormal…X-rays feet ankles knee hocks stifles spine and neck…all text book clean…rare…and wind scope…and scope for Ulcers…clean…blood work and tox screen perfect…Buyer then tried to negotiate $5k off price because he had to be shipped to West Coast…Ummm not my problem…We dickered back and forth couldn’t t make heads or tails of it, she had signed an Buyers agreement with no leg to stand on…BFNE has since bought horse from me an is ready to run 1*…and I bought did buy the X-rays from customer…With the advent of social media and FB advertising the whole price mark up has dwindled…But I did Field a call from a trainer confirming a $15k horse sale so…get this…she could add on her commission…and she didn t find the horse a “friend” of the buyer contacted me…then the buyer…lastly the trainer…who was not even coming to see the horse…so how does that work…I refuse to add onto prices for trainers…Have lost sales due to thisand on the rare occasion I have sold a horse for a customer…they are paying the board and expenses so why would I take a commission…
I think pricing is always tough especially with facebook but for the most part I put my prices on my website and they may go up or down but they are always published so it isn’t a big secret. When I put mine on facebook they are often just arriving and I have a ballpark but not always a concrete number which I think most people understand. It doesn’t normally swing drastically.
I don’t think I am ever really offended by price negotiations but most of my horses are under $10k. Sometimes I am in the mood to make room for whatever reason. Sometimes I simply can’t get a horse to move out of the barn and a customer makes me a low offer and gets a great deal. Now when I have something that I know is absolutely top notch and has a line out the door then the price tends to be fairly firm but I will notate price is firm just to be clear.
As a seller, I often get snide comments about how can your prices of Tb’s be so high? I most of the time don’t answer but often want to say because I am taking the risk and I am also buying the cream of the crop. The years of establishing good contact that are trustworthy calling me about the big, sound, fancy horses that are sound just not running are worth their weight in gold. If it’s in my barn then it is typically a 16+ h, 3-6yr, sound, athletic, good moving/jumping horse and something that will stand out. If I have it advertised at $6k and you have $2500 to spend we aren’t on the same page. If you have $5k to spend we likely are not far off.
As for the basic good manners of advising they are no longer interested, or not coming for an appointment, in this day and age those things can’t be expected. It is the culture today. People are not taught how to say “I’m no longer interested” or “I can’t make it at 3 pm tomorrow” when they aren’t coming at all, ever. Too many really don’t know how to send that message. In fact, as soon as “something better” comes along, they forget all about what they were looking at before. It’s wrong, but not expecting it will change. If someone says with happy positive excitement “I like ___! I’ll call you tomorrow!” I’ll be surprised if they do call, not if they never make contact again. :lol:
I have bought and sold quite a few and find that I am very straightforward about what I have to spend, what I think your horse is worth, and whether I am interested from the get-go. When selling or representing a horse, I have pulled people off of a horse after five minutes of riding if it’s not going to work. Why waste anyone’s time if the sale is not going to happen?
If a horse is out of my price range, I still call and explain what my top $$ amount is (for a horse at that level of training etc). People can be flexible or not, but you don’t know if you don’t ask.
I hate wasting anyone’s time and energy, from both seller and buyer perspective. One of my most annoying appointments was when a trainer brought a kid in from out of state and rode the heck out of a sales horse, giving a full 1 hour lesson, and then turned to me and said that they had a vetting scheduled for the next day on another horse but he wanted to give the kid a lesson. I was aghast, speechless, flummoxed, yep.
Pricing horses is so subjective. I have found horses worth 20k for 4k and looked at horses priced at 40k that were really 10k horses and so on. The subjectivity of pricing is what makes it all so difficult. Location, who has the horse, and presentation, all figure into the equation.
I am done with sending horses out to be sold. It ends up that they horses aren’t sold and then I end up selling them myself, or they come back in poor condition, or the seller ends up selling them to an entirely unsuitable home and I have to fix it all in the end. Selling horses is the pits, really.
But I LOVE finding them, especially the diamonds in the rough and the misunderstood, so as long as I am doing that, I am forced to sell them. Otherwise, I’d end up with buckets of horses, overflowing into the next county.
