Vetting Buyers

[Marigold]

@Winding Down

If a horse is out of my price range, I still call and explain what my top $$ amount is (for a horse at that level of training etc). People can be flexible or not, but you don’t know if you don’t ask.

I absolutely agree that if a horse is out of your price range (slightly - let’s say by 10-15%, not 50%), asking in advance if the price is firm is a great idea to ensure no one’s time is wasted. But what happens if a horse is priced at $22k, you call and explain that your top dollar is $20k, and then you go and ride the horse and find it’s only worth $15k? (Let’s say it hasn’t been trained in the way that you expected and though you still like the horse, you’d need to put more time into it before it’s where you want, or something like that).

Personally, I’d like to make an offer at $15k - I’ve already invested my time and the seller’s and I would be happy to own the horse at that price. It’s preferable at that stage to walking away, since that could rob us both of the potential to make a deal. I’m not willing to pay $20k, but they at least deserve a chance to say no to the $15k. But if I’ve told the seller I COULD pay $20k (which is already under asking), there’s no way they would accept a $15k offer. And at that point I wouldn’t even know how to phrase it. “This horse has not been trained very well” doesn’t exactly endear yourself to someone. How would you handle this?

[frugalannie]

Great topic. Thanks for bringing it up. Truth in representation would help, but not everyone is capable of developing an “objective” truth which is perceived subjectively anyway (if you get my drift). Yet the tirekickers who “horse shop” just to get a free ride every weekend are really vexing. Maybe Halterpass is the way to go. Intriguing idea in any event.

And horse trading is a sport almost as old as the hills, and sometimes kind of fun as long as neither party is being duplicitous. So I think some attempt at negotiation is acceptable . As Marigold points out, the seller should have the opportunity to say “no”.

[findeight]

I have said resellers and horse sellers in general are like used car salesmen but please don’t take offense. Many, if not most, are honest but a buyer needs to reasearch the seller as they would a car dealer, research and know what kind of horse they need, what their budget is and not get sweet talked into something else.

Sellers get sweet talked too because buyers seem “nice and honest” so they waste their time at best, get suckered into letting it off property without full payment at worst. Sometimes buyer had good intentions but more often is either terminally naive about their ability to support the horse while making payments or has no intention of paying the horse off.

I think it’s reasonable to expect a buyer to not only check social media and Google but be willing to provide their full, legal name to seller so seller can Google them BEFORE doing any business.

Social media is new, so is the frequency of PPEs since I bought and sold starting back around 1970. The PITA factor is the SOS though. When I got back into horses after an 8 year hiatus and switched toHunters back around 93? I used respected and honest agents with extensive contacts for anything I leased, bought or sold. Still a PITA but worth the commission to greatly reduce the time involved looking at unsuitable, misrepresented horses or dealing with tire kickers and delusional buyers who don’t understand first to put deposit down gets Horse and it doesn’t leave the property until it’s fully paid for.

Buyers understand that when buying a car, seem to expect something else buying a horse.

[amb]

@Marigold

I’m not willing to pay $20k, but they at least deserve a chance to say no to the $15k. But if I’ve told the seller I COULD pay $20k (which is already under asking), there’s no way they would accept a $15k offer.

I think if you make the offer anyway you’ll get some pleasant surprises.

And at that point I wouldn’t even know how to phrase it. “This horse has not been trained very well” doesn’t exactly endear yourself to someone. How would you handle this?

That’s not how I’d phrase it, either. A simple “I’d pay $15k for him if you’d be interested” says all you’d need to say, and if the answer is “thanks, but the price is firm”, then it’s “ok, thank you for your time, have a great weekend”, and maybe you get a call back a couple of weeks later once they’ve mulled a while.

Easy to write, but I was terrible at this sort of dealing for a long time. (I actually had somebody say “no, no, you’re supposed to negotiate!” and knock off 10%.) I found that having some exact phrasing for how to put it helped, so there’s a suggestion or two. Also if you get a jerk seller who wants to have an argument about the awesomeness of their horse, keeping it personal to you can help. Not “your horse sucks”, but “your horse doesn’t work for me”. Harder to argue with, not that some won’t try.

Also, for the whole “what’s your budget?” question in the first place, you can put a lot of hedging in it. Not “I have $20k to spend”, more like “not sure, maybe up to $20k if I reeeeeealllly like him and I scrimp on some other stuff.”

[Marigold]

@amb

I think if you make the offer anyway you’ll get some pleasant surprises.

…

Also, for the whole “what’s your budget?” question in the first place, you can put a lot of hedging in it. Not “I have $20k to spend”, more like “not sure, maybe up to $20k if I reeeeeealllly like him and I scrimp on some other stuff.”

Do you think you can make an offer at $15k even if you’ve already told them you have $20k? Do you think that, even if you phrase it as above with the scrimping and saving, sellers won’t still assume you can come up with the $20k? (I’m not challenging you, you may well be right, just wondering about your perspective). Especially in the case of a seller coming down from $22k, they may feel that if they are making a concession and coming down, you should also show some flex and come up with the top of your budget. Which in some cases you might do for A horse, but not for THAT horse, and that can leave buyer and seller too far apart.

@amb

A simple “I’d pay $15k for him if you’d be interested” says all you’d need to say

Great language here. I totally agree - it really helped me to have some practiced phrases going into a negotiation that I knew were neutral, but also made my position known. Almost like a job interview - it helped to have some things I knew I felt confident putting out there.

[eventer215]

Another factor to consider when negotiating, from a seller’s perspective, is that I personally hate it when a buyer’s first line of communication with me is, “What is the lowest you will take for the horse?” I do not mind if someone asks if I am negotiable, then comes and sees the horse, and then makes an offer. But don’t ask me to negotiate against myself, it’s not gonna happen

[judybigredpony]

Apples to Apples if you like the horse and want to negotiate…that starts after the PPE because from a sellers perspective if you like the horse it performs for you and is as advertised…then you have no room to negotiate less it has a ding at PPE…I had a car dealer squak after a price was negotiated down to the penny, because he wanted to re coup the $175. He paid for pinstripe…(which was BS because pinstriper charged them $100.) and my response was “You put the pinstripe on. I didn’t ask for it”…I have also negotiated before a PPE to the last lowest price, horse vetted had a few minor changes here and there…would potentially need hock injections way down the road…buyer wanted more $$ off…NO…they still bought horse…Since the advent of on site real time X-rays and ultra sounds wind scope and buyers doing Tox screen and blood work…selling drugged compromised horses is quickly fading…The 1st time you sell a horse who is found drugged you name will forever be etched in social media mire…The useful thing about social media is we who sell and network amongst ourselves can will and do share…tire inkers, horror stories, Vets who nit pick to the last hair etc, and occasionally what we went to see and what to avoid…so it has its uses…It beats the old days of making never ending VHS tapes and mailing costs…or even further back waiting for your "word: ad to come out in the Chronicle or newspaper…maybe splurge for a photo ad…so we have come a long way…But no shows and all the rest of it’s not changed…

[fordtraktor]

@Marigold

Do you think you can make an offer at $15k even if you’ve already told them you have $20k? Do you think that, even if you phrase it as above with the scrimping and saving, sellers won’t still assume you can come up with the $20k? (I’m not challenging you, you may well be right, just wondering about your perspective). Especially in the case of a seller coming down from $22k, they may feel that if they are making a concession and coming down, you should also show some flex and come up with the top of your budget. Which in some cases you might do for A horse, but not for THAT horse, and that can leave buyer and seller too far apart.

Great language here. I totally agree - it really helped me to have some practiced phrases going into a negotiation that I knew were neutral, but also made my position known. Almost like a job interview - it helped to have some things I knew I felt confident putting out there.

You can definitely make an offer if you don’t think the horse is worth that much. There’s no rule that you are required to spend every penny of your budget! Offer what you think it is worth. “he’s a little greener than I was expecting” works without insulting the training or involving your budget.

[mellsmom]

I have been shopping on and off for the last 10 years. You would be very surprised at what some people think is a “made” horse vs a “green” horse. I have gotten to the point where if I come and watch it go and am not excited by it, I just say thank you but it’s just not what I am looking for. Everyone is busy. People should not feel the need to sit on a horse they are not interested in. The last trip I showed up to look at a couple of horses and at least two of them had vices that had they been disclosed would have kept them off the go see list. That ended up being a waste of time for the seller and me. And there are times that you LOVE the horse but you know it’s about 6 months to a year greener than what you have time for and because I am older, I have absolutely no problem looking someone in the eye and saying, this horse is lovely but it’s just not my ride. I know what I like and what makes me happy. But I almost always pass along info on nice horses that aren’t a fit for me to other people I know who are looking. But yes, I try to not look at horses advertised above my budget because if I love it and can’t buy it, what’s the point?

[amb]

@Marigold

Do you think you can make an offer at $15k even if you’ve already told them you have $20k? Do you think that, even if you phrase it as above with the scrimping and saving, sellers won’t still assume you can come up with the $20k? (I’m not challenging you, you may well be right, just wondering about your perspective). Especially in the case of a seller coming down from $22k, they may feel that if they are making a concession and coming down, you should also show some flex and come up with the top of your budget. Which in some cases you might do for A horse, but not for THAT horse, and that can leave buyer and seller too far apart.

Yes, I think it’s possible and not-unreasonable to make that offer, and that it can be done politely. I’m actually torn on even saying something like “$20k is a stretch” because it’s ultimately not so pertinent as what I’m willing to part with, but I’ve said things like that before I became such a hard-nosed jerk. I think the whole “what’s your budget?” question is annoying (it’s the flip side of “what’s your best price?”, which is also annoying) but I get the desire on the seller’s part to not have their time wasted, too.

In this specific case, a $15k offer on a horse advertised at $22k does feel like there’s a mismatch in expectations somewhere, but it could still be on the seller’s part. (Or they just like you, or they just got a large bill, or…) If I really only wanted to offer say $10k or less I might hedge a little before saying it (“probably lower than you’re willing to consider” or whatever), but if I’m the third person this week who thought it was a $10k horse it still might go well! Another stock phrase I keep handy is “are you willing to consider offers below <asking>?”.

Great language here. I totally agree - it really helped me to have some practiced phrases going into a negotiation that I knew were neutral, but also made my position known. Almost like a job interview - it helped to have some things I knew I felt confident putting out there.

Thanks, and yes, quite a lot like that. I’ve certainly seen people be quite the ass in negotiating price, too, but especially if they’re in the business some amount of direct politeness without getting personal seems to go a long way. (I’m better at negotiating things, but I still hate job interviews!) Much like job negotiations, though, it’s a billion times harder if you’re not actually just happy to walk if you don’t get what you want.

[Scribbler]

I think prices are quite subjective in many cases. For instance, I once watched a low level pro who was getting out of the business, advertise her jumping prospect who was green but a nice colour, and had some ability. In July he was $15,000. In September he was $10,000. In October he was $5000, and by winter he was a free lease.

Six years later, he was all grown up and with different owners. I saw him being resold as a teen’s lower level hunter jumper with show miles and a good character, for $10,000, which was just about the right price to comparable horses.

[Marigold]

@amb

I think the whole “what’s your budget?” question is annoying (it’s the flip side of “what’s your best price?”, which is also annoying).

I’m not sure I have ever agreed with a post on here more. A million times this!

@amb

In this specific case, a $15k offer on a horse advertised at $22k does feel like there’s a mismatch in expectations somewhere, but it could still be on the seller’s part.

Totally agree. I don’t think I’d go look at a horse advertised at $22k with the intention of offering $15k, but I might go look at a $22k horse if my budget was $20k. And I might try a horse priced at $22k and realize based on the trial that it was only worth $15k. At which point, I may as well make that offer, since both the seller and I have put in the time to get to that point. It’s just much trickier to make that offer if I’ve admitted I have $20k to spend.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

Well, if a buyer is asked to disclose budget and is inclined to do so, you can always take the “House Hunters” approach - give a fairly wide range and say that in order to buy a horse at the top of your range, it will have to “tic off all your boxes and be move in ready” :lol:

[Jleegriffith]

I just try to be honest with people. I do have a lot that come to me with an under $3500 looking for a big fancy sound tb gelding that ticks all the boxed and I simply say that I struggle to find those and if and when I do then I am probably paying good money for them and I am in the business of resale so I likely am not going to be able to make them fit that budget. If you tell me that you have $7500 to spend and you are looking for something that is extremely nice but fits that criteria then I probably have a list of horses that will fit or I will be able to find one that does.

It’s tough because I understand not wanting to ask someone their budget (and I try not to do it!) but I don’t want to waste a lot of time if mine simply don’t fit the budget. I think keeping a current website has helped a lot because it adds transparency to the pricing and also gives an idea of the range of the horses that I have and why they might be priced a certain way.

I HATE when people ask me what is my best price as a seller because really my prices are pretty darn firm and and unless you really are seriously buying the horse I don’t negotiate. Most of the time I really don’t even negotiate based on vetting findings because in my findings people are going to throw some crazy number that doesn’t make it worth me to sell the horse if the findings are so minor I can sell the horse to another customer. I guess it just depends on what the findings may or may not be which everyone has to understand. If you are going into vettings hoping to find something to reduce the price then that doesn’t work with me!

I had one of my good customers recently be a good example of negotiation. She liked a horse I had but was offering me something that was about $2k less than his price. She simply said it is a quality horse but at this time I have X amount to spend. If for any reason you decide you want to sell him I would love to buy him. Simple, effective and said in a way that left the door open. I did sell her the horse because he had sore feet and I was going to get left holding him for a bit anyway.

I have had lots and lots of customers negotiate in a way that really left a smile on my face and others who did the opposite so a lot of it does have to do with the language used.

[judybigredpony]

I ask for their spending budget because if I don t have a horse in that price its a waste of both of our times…i respond to a lot of ISO ads and 99% don t post a budget and after a few back and forth s invariably its discovered they have WAY less to spend or when someone has a budget of $7500. That often includes the cost of PPE and shipping…so they buy power is actually $6000. Give or take…I don t think its rude to know a high low price range , just like asking their riding skill level before progressing further…

[eventer215]

think of it this way, if you inquire about my $3500 horse, that is the budget that I assume we are working with, while I might have a fantastic $7500 horse that would suit better, I’m not going to waste my time showing him to you unless I know that you have the budget. And the argument that it is harder to negotiate if I know what you have to spend, while I understand what you are saying, I do think you are cheating yourself, especially if you are going to someone that has multiple horses for sale, and most likely has some in the pipeline that aren’t listed yet.

[kcmel]

@Scribbler

I think prices are quite subjective in many cases. For instance, I once watched a low level pro who was getting out of the business, advertise her jumping prospect who was green but a nice colour, and had some ability. In July he was $15,000. In September he was $10,000. In October he was $5000, and by winter he was a free lease.

I have often seen horses who are sitting on the market have price drops like this. Especially this time of year when people often want to sell before winter or before they head south. Which is why I will look at horses that are a bit over my budget. Although I will usually inquire if the price is firm first.

5 or 6 years ago I was interested in a green but very nice sounding OTTB that the seller wanted $10K for. I thought the price was likely “optimistic”, but at that time it was non-negotiable so I did not go try him. A couple of months later the seller contacted me and said they had dropped the price to $5K. At that point I had already bought another horse.

Another time a local breeder had a horse priced a bit above my budget. I did go try the horse and made an offer that I thought was fair, but they turned it down. As it got closer for them to head to Fl and I still saw the horse advertised I reached out to them again and they were willing to drop the price to what I had originally offered. Unfortunately he had a OCD lesion and a couple of other bone abnormalities so I did not buy him.

The horse I did buy I also thought was overpriced, but I knew the seller was very motivated. I offered ~40% less than the asking price and she accepted. But I would not expect that to be typical. The last 2 horses I bought I negotiated down $500 and $1K, but I thought they were both priced pretty fairly.

[CiegoStar]

I think there needs to be transparency on both sides. Sellers should post price or a range (“horses in the 10-15k range”). And buyers who post ISO ads should put their budget range in the ad, they can keep it vague if they want (“budget 5-10k, wiggle room for the right horse”) - that doesn’t mean they are locked into buying a horse for 10k.

Otherwise a lot of time gets wasted. I would not respond to ISO ads that do not put a price range and describe a unicorn. Those people have the least sense of what a horse is actually worth.

[Marigold]

@eventer215

think of it this way, if you inquire about my $3500 horse, that is the budget that I assume we are working with, while I might have a fantastic $7500 horse that would suit better, I’m not going to waste my time showing him to you unless I know that you have the budget.

As a seller, if you encountered that situation, would you not just say “by the way, I have one that may fit what you are looking for, but he is priced at x. Would you still be interested in seeing him?”

I am always confused by people who make assumptions about someone else’s spending power. Certainly I understand not wanting to put a lot of time and effort into a trial ride that has no possibility of going anywhere, but what does it hurt to let someone know about another opportunity? I’ve had this happen everywhere from people selling horses to saddles, so it’s certainly a common issue, but if you don’t ask, you don’t know!

I also struggle with disclosing budget because people take that as an indication of what I hope to buy. As in, if I say I have a budget of $20k, people assume I’d like to buy something going and maybe with a bit of a record. But I might be just as okay with spending $20k on a going horse at Novice as spending $5k on a green OTTB that I could bring along. I know many buyers are more specific in their search, but not all. However, from personal experience I found that disclosing these preferences leads to being sent a lot of $20k yearlings - which is not what I want. Still not sure how to get around this one.

[rockymouse]

I have a question as a potential buyer that I hope is within the realm of this thread. Our previous horses have come from a seizure auction or we’ve bought them from trusted friends in the horse industry, with whom we did not dicker on price. We knew we were getting a deal and they knew their horse was going to a great place.

Our son’s gelding has a great pedigree and is the son of a well-known cutting horse who is still alive and still breeding at a top-flight large breeding facility in North Texas. That gelding has been such a joy that I reached out to the breeding facility to see if they had any weanlings or yearlings by this stud. No, they replied, but they have a very nice three year old by a different famous stallion for $X and a yearling by a sister to our horse’s stud for $Y.

These prices are, I think, pretty reasonable for creatures of this breeding and level of training. They ain’t cheap, however. Does one negotiate with an established, big name, high-volume breeder such as this? Or do you say “yes ma’am and here’s your check”?