Vetting Buyers

[findeight]

Thus probably should go over on the Western Forum but I don’t think the basic question has a different answer in any breed or discipline.

The answer is it depends on the seller. IME Breeders are less likely to want to dicker with buyers over price. Breeder knows exactly what they have into the colt, they keep it right at home and they know what its relatives have sold for at similar age and training level. They might expect and be willing to do a little negotiation but are more likely to offer free delivery if it’s easy driving distance, throw in a Halter and blanket or something like that rather then a agree to a significant price reduction. However most Breeders don’t mind if you ask them if they know of others of similar breeding closer to your price range-most are helpful.

Your best prices are going to be in situations where an owner no longer wants or can afford the horse boarded at a commercial barn. Those people have to sell, they have no place they can afford to keep it…sometimes they call the breeder to see if they can help with finding a buyer.

So it never hurts to speak to Breeders but dont go look at a 10k colt if your budget tops at 7500…but you can call or e mail a question about others that might be closer. They can chose to help you or not without wasting either sides time.

Need to add don’t get seduced by a big name sire that’s heavily advertised. The dam carries it to term and raises it the first 4-6 months, she’ll imprint it with her “personality” and attitude. Many Breeders in most breeds value the dam side over the sires side in predicting trainability and attitude. It takes two good ones , not necessarily great ones, to produce a good one. Look for that, not a great sire and a so so dam who is a witch and never did anything because nobody could stand to be around her…like I bought. But I’ve been at this a very long time, it was a very successful Hunter and the price reflected the inherited bitchyness.

Generally recommend staying away from very Green youngsters unless you include the training from a qualified Pro in the budget. No offense but many overestimate their skills at training up a young horse if they have never done it before. They also forget much of the value in a well known stallion, especially a QH, is the way he was cared for, trained and shown, the nurture part not the inherited nature. Bloodline alone can be misleading.

[rockymouse]

Thanks, Findeight, for your insight, especially regarding the dam’s influence. We do have experience in bringing up very young, green horses. We just don’t have experience in potentially buying from a large, established professional breeding facility like this.

I appreciate your thoughts!

[Backstage]

@Jleegriffith

I just try to be honest with people. I do have a lot that come to me with an under $3500 looking for a big fancy sound tb gelding that ticks all the boxed and I simply say that I struggle to find those and if and when I do then I am probably paying good money for them and I am in the business of resale so I likely am not going to be able to make them fit that budget. If you tell me that you have $7500 to spend and you are looking for something that is extremely nice but fits that criteria then I probably have a list of horses that will fit or I will be able to find one that does.

It’s tough because I understand not wanting to ask someone their budget (and I try not to do it!) but I don’t want to waste a lot of time if mine simply don’t fit the budget. I think keeping a current website has helped a lot because it adds transparency to the pricing and also gives an idea of the range of the horses that I have and why they might be priced a certain way.

I HATE when people ask me what is my best price as a seller because really my prices are pretty darn firm and and unless you really are seriously buying the horse I don’t negotiate. Most of the time I really don’t even negotiate based on vetting findings because in my findings people are going to throw some crazy number that doesn’t make it worth me to sell the horse if the findings are so minor I can sell the horse to another customer. I guess it just depends on what the findings may or may not be which everyone has to understand. If you are going into vettings hoping to find something to reduce the price then that doesn’t work with me!

To my mind, there is never anything wrong with communicating that you aren’t very negotiable on price. Given the volume that you deal with (according to my facebook!), it strikes me as totally reasonable to flag that for “new” buyers. I might even incorporate it into your email signature! Those that are known to you, of course, will already know how you operate.

I’m pretty firm about not answering the ‘what is your budget’ question - but, I probably would actually share it with someone with your particular business model. Prices will vary by age, size, miles and quality - but (again, from facebook) most of your sales are of the same type (OTTB gelding), and I would benefit from letting you know my criteria, and what criteria would encourage me to ‘push’ that budget.

[weixiao]

So glad not to have any plans to sell horses again any time in the near future. Been through all of the above and more. I love seeing a good match work out but man some times it leads me to have serious doubts about whether common courtesy still exist (gave up on common sense a long time ago).

As a buyer, I find it frustrating when sellers don’t list prices. There can be such a range of prices for a horse it is really hard to know if something might be within your budget if they don’t. Especially over here where a 1.30m horse could be 10k or it could be 50k. Even ranges can be difficult if they aren’t narrow enough. Saying something is “under 25k” or “between 25k and 40k” is not very helpful because depending where your budget falls in that range that may not be ground that you can make up.

On the subject of budget ranges though, this week I was talking to a seller about a horse and Seller really wouldn’t give a price and just wanted me to make an offer. I told Seller my budget was X and I could possibly go to Y if something was really ideal. So the Seller chose a price Z between my X and Y. Would have been nice if she’d gone with X but I appreciated she didn’t automatically go with Y and I do think that the price is a steal either way for this horse (assuming the vetting goes well). So no, not all sellers will automatically go to the top of your budget, even if they know what that might be.

[Winding_Down]

@fordtraktor

You can definitely make an offer if you don’t think the horse is worth that much. There’s no rule that you are required to spend every penny of your budget! Offer what you think it is worth. “he’s a little greener than I was expecting” works without insulting the training or involving your budget.

Agree! I guess I am quite blunt compared to others because I will tell a seller upfront if I don’t think a horse is worth what they are asking. I’ve never had anyone seem taken aback so I guess I manage to say this in a polite way. Either that, or sellers are really good at hiding their reactions. :eek:

[Winding_Down]

@Groom&Taxi

Well, if a buyer is asked to disclose budget and is inclined to do so, you can always take the “House Hunters” approach - give a fairly wide range and say that in order to buy a horse at the top of your range, it will have to “tic off all your boxes and be move in ready” :lol:

That sounds sensible. Often, I do not have a budget that is meaningful. If I found an amazing horse that was a bargain but priced above the $$ I had, I’d probably find a way to come up with it. I can recall doing that more than once in the past. But that’s me and my style and I doubt that typical buyers think that way.

[OverandOnward]

How people handle different ideas on price is always interesting …

I think the understanding of ‘what is a $25k horse’, ‘what is a $40k horse’, etc. is very much a cause of price misunderstandings. Some people don’t know what they don’t know. The Bay Wonder at the stable across the county sold for $40k. The Bay Wonder does a nice circle and jumps fences, so since their horse looks similar, also does circles and jumps, he must be worth $40k, too. Then there is that awkward moment when the potential buyer is trying to think of how to explain that their horse does not go like The Bay Wonder at all. Their horse is more like a $15k horse, at best.

I watched a very tactful young professional kindly explaining this to a seller by speaking about an imaginary horse. “This horse is not quite what I’m looking for, for $40k.” Seller: startled. “But why is that?” Non-Buyer: "For $40k, I’m looking for a horse that ___ " and he itemized a few things that were rather beyond the horse at hand. That helped the seller begin to realize that their horse was far short of what this gentleman, at least, expected to find in a $40k horse. The Non-Buyer didn’t directly tell them how their horse fell short, he just itemized some things that he would pay $40k for if such a horse were for sale somewhere. The Seller knew just enough to know their horse did not have those things.

When the Seller tried fishing for the pro’s price opinion of their own horse, the pro once again spoke about imaginary horses. “Well, a horse that goes somewhat like this one,” and he itemized some things that were ok but lacking that $40k flash, “I’d be willing to pay maybe $15k for a horse like that.” He carefully did not even look at Seller’s horse but off at the horizon somewhere while he said this.

It was great to watch. He actually made an offer that was $25k less than asking - but only if the Seller was willing to pick up on what he said. If the Seller didn’t like what he said, then it could all be put down to a nice chat and no offer was made at all. A very savvy young man, great rider and as good with people as he was with horses.

[OverandOnward]

I think another reason for not realizing a horse is priced way above what it should be for the market is when a Seller believes (or chooses to believe) that another similar horse sold for that much. But it didn’t, it sold for a lot less. Sometimes an idea, a rumor, is going around about the price for a transaction, and rumors like to inflate the price. Not sure I know of a rumor for a price that was less than what was paid … of course I don’t track that stuff down.

[weixiao]

@rockymouse

I have a question as a potential buyer that I hope is within the realm of this thread. Our previous horses have come from a seizure auction or we’ve bought them from trusted friends in the horse industry, with whom we did not dicker on price. We knew we were getting a deal and they knew their horse was going to a great place.

Our son’s gelding has a great pedigree and is the son of a well-known cutting horse who is still alive and still breeding at a top-flight large breeding facility in North Texas. That gelding has been such a joy that I reached out to the breeding facility to see if they had any weanlings or yearlings by this stud. No, they replied, but they have a very nice three year old by a different famous stallion for $X and a yearling by a sister to our horse’s stud for $Y.

These prices are, I think, pretty reasonable for creatures of this breeding and level of training. They ain’t cheap, however. Does one negotiate with an established, big name, high-volume breeder such as this? Or do you say “yes ma’am and here’s your check”?

It doesn’t hurt to ask, I think. You never know, they might need to move some horses to make way for others on the way, etc.

Conversely, you could always say, I really like both those horses but unfortunately, my budget is $Z at the moment. Please let me know if you happen to hear of anything that might suit or if something else comes available." They may turn around and offer you one of those for $Z or perhaps they’ll let you know if something does come up.