Vetting the OTTB....how exhaustive should you be?

[gertie06]

Hi gang. Theoretical question for you. If you were buying an inexpensive OTTB, how exhaustive would you be in the PPE? When I’ve bought horses in the past, I’ve done very thorough sets of xrays. However, those have all been higher level – and more expensive – jumper types. Those PPEs have sometimes cost north of $1000. I’m not sure this makes sense on a horse that’s $3500 to purchase. But then again, it’s peace of mind.

Would love to hear y’all’s thoughts on this. Which xray views, if any, should I obtain?

P.S. Let’s say this horse would be a resell. I know that makes a difference, too.

[staceymc]

I personally would do the same thorough PPE on every horse regardless of the purchase price. Because once I buy the horse, I’m stuck with him and his problems. It no longer matters that I didn’t pay much for the horse.

I also don’t own a farm and have to board. So this could make a difference if you can cheaply keep a horse should you need to retire it, etc.

For a resale prospect? You’d better believe I’m doing an extensive PPE. I want to know if there is something that might be a deal breaker for future buyers.

[Xctrygirl]

Everything that @staceymc said. And with emphasis that being stuck with a horse that isn’t perfect can be a bear.

Also remember that vettings are a glimpse of the situation at the time that they’re done. And two vets 1 day apart can have entirely different results.

Em

[SonnysMom]

2 years ago I bought an OTTB for less than $2k. I did a basic PPE- flexions, heart, lungs, trot on hard surface on lungeline.
I eventually has some NQR issues. After neck xrays, front hoof xrays, hock xrays, stifle xrays, Osphos injections, lots of blocks on front legs, Lyme testing, EPM testing nothing showed. He even had Dr. Green for a few months after the Osphos. That didn’t resolve it. So even if I had all the testing done as part of the PPE it would not have made a difference because there was nothing to see. We just put him on Estrone and put him in work and he is fine now.

If I was buying for resale I would be inclined to get some baseline xrays so there are no surprises when I go to sell. Hocks at least. Front hooves probably which would be a help for the farrier anyway as most of them come with such crappy feet.

[ClassyJumper]

PPE are such a crap shoot sometimes so I really just decide based on the situation.

I was interested in an ottb gelding at a rescue ( so I was looking at a lifelong commitment) so I had a basic PPE done, exam+flexions and decided not to go through with it based on that.

My mare that i ended up buying (less than 2k), I tried and loaded on the trailer the same night. It was a drive to go see her and worst case scenario I know I could probably find a good home for her as a broodmare or trail horse if things didnt work out.

The horse that I sold when I went to college “passed” with no issues a 1.5K prepurchase and ended up 6 months later having very debilitating navicular problems.

Its frusterating for sure, I wish there was a right answer. I think its best just to think of what your options are if the horse doesnt work out like you hope and go from there.

[NancyM]

If I see something that I want xrays of, that can be done. If the horse is sound (without drugs) when you look at it, and has a good history of being a sound horse (ask around your friends who work at the track), or if it HAD a good reputation for being sound before the short term injury that is ending it’s race career, exhaustive and expensive vetting isn’t something that I go for. Horses often will be vetted and nothing found, but end up unsound horses. Other horses, if you investigated closely what they have wrong with them, you would walk away from purchase, but are functionally sound for years. Buying specifically for resale is always chancy, when you go to sell, one vet may find issues, another vet may not. It’s a crap shoot, as the previous poster said. I’ve bought and been given horses off the track over the decades, and they have come into my ownership without PPEs, and I’m OK with that, and it has worked out well for me and the horses. No one can foretell the future. There are no guarantees when acquiring a horse. Some people have problems spending money, time and effort without feeling that there IS some guarantee. But the truth is, there is no guarantee of success, of soundness, of suitability, of anything. Once a horseman truly understands that, it’s easier to buy a horse.

[lesson_junkie]

This year I bought a 9yo OTTB, last raced 6/18, with 44 starts. His legs are clean, he had no history of lameness, and passed a basic PPE. After passing the flexion tests, I discussed rads with my vet. She said she would do anything I wanted, but did mention x-raying a sound horse was illogical. As he will NEVER be sold (man, did I score!!) I agreed. I figured I can’t ask more from him than he did at the track.

If the horse is for resale, that changes everything. I would vet it like it already cost what I hoped I’d get at sale.

[kiwihill3000]

I bought an OTTB fairly cheaply. I did get a PPE done. PPE completely checked out besides just kind of having crappy feet. I did not get x rays done, but the vet did a full exam, full flexion/lameness. Horse ended up having to be retired about a year later due to mystery ailments. The horse was purchased for $4k, spent about $10k in vet bills and did not determine what was going on with him. Back pain, tightness everywhere, mystery pain, periods where he couldn’t put his head down to the ground, unrideable, mild neuro symptoms. Did a ton of bloodwork, urine tests, lameness exam, x rays, neuro exam, special shoes, weekly chiro, 4 visits by the saddle fitter… still had no idea what was going on with him, but he was happy being a pet and was retired. Not sure what the moral of this story is but I think that a lot of the time having a PPE and/or X rays doesn’t tell you too much about the future. He looked great on the day of his PPE and I don’t think having X rays done would have changed that. I think that if there’s a specific concern that you’re interested in learning more about that it is a good idea. If he’s a resell, new owner may want PPE and things could show up then that didn’t in the original PPE. Not sure if you’re buying sight unseen but I suggest looking at a jog video very closely and/or having someone knowledgeable do so. That will at least hopefully help rule out anything major right off- but again, no guarantees!

[ExpialidociousOTTB]

I purchased my very inexpensive OTTB (raced 4x) in 2017 as a 3 yo, without a PPE. He was sound, and I didn’t feel compelled to radiograph anything. The only time he’s been off was when he had an abscess that summer. I board, but had access to a pasture to chuck him in, if something happened. It didn’t feel that risky, at the time - I’d probably make the same decision today - though I will also say I liked the seller when I met her and felt she was upfront and honest about everything regarding the horse.

[kmwines]

Just because resale I’d get rads of knees, fetlocks, hocks, back. Kissing spine is a *itch. Feet and stifles based on flexion and how much you like it. If it’s cheap, resale I would probably pass if off on flexion unless it was a war horse and no resale. 3 yo lightly raced probably pass

[Xctrygirl]

I will add that we’ve hit the point where c spines are really useful to have either to have as a baseline or (God Forbid) to analyse cervical arthritis etc. You hear about Wobbler’s in Tb’s a lot and realistically it exists in many breeds. So we really should get more neck xrays. I have done them on both of my recent guys and would elect to continue to do them over something like hind fetlocks.

There was a statement about 6 months ago or so where the British Vet association (I think, or something) put out a statement that back xrays were not as universally helpful, and that echoes what I have learned at my job, because not all backs on xray indicate a problem with performance due to irregularities. Some horses function just fine with abnormal xrays and some with normal xrays or ones within acceptable limits can have issues.

Em

[rhymes_with_orange]

@staceymc

I personally would do the same thorough PPE on every horse regardless of the purchase price. Because once I buy the horse, I’m stuck with him and his problems. It no longer matters that I didn’t pay much for the horse.

I also don’t own a farm and have to board. So this could make a difference if you can cheaply keep a horse should you need to retire it, etc.

For a resale prospect? You’d better believe I’m doing an extensive PPE. I want to know if there is something that might be a deal breaker for future buyers.

These are my thoughts exactly. I have to board and retiring a horse will be a difficulty for me when the time comes. Because of this I am more likely to do a through PPE.

[dynamite0319]

I bought a barely 3yo OTTB in 2017 and did a basic PPE (that the seller STILL makes fun of me for doing bc the horse was so cheap). The horse passed with no issues and hasn’t had any issues since. He trained and ran his 2yo year, then got fired from racing bc he was so slow. I’d do the same thing again. I would only do rads if the basic PPE indicated they were necessary.
But that would change for a resale project. People are (in my opinion) often ridiculous about soundness and trying to “find” it before buying, so depending on the price range you anticipate selling the horse I’d get a PPE done for that level now. If the horse will be sold in the mid-four figures I’d get basic rads. If you think it’ll be in the five figures, I’d get more rads done.
At the very least it’ll give you a baseline before you get the horse so if a PPE is done a year or two years from now and they find something that was already present you can say that you’ve done X job with the horse for XX months and it hasn’t caused an issue OR if it wasn’t present you can say it’s new.

[jonem004]

For a resale I would do lameness exam and basic X-rays (hocks, stifles, front feet). I assume whoever buys him will vet him. If there are joint changes or anything else that would eat into his value I want to know about it before I spend 6 months training him up.

I’d also want to know if he’s maybe sore, and that’s why he’s so quiet. Don’t want to finally get those feet good and find out he’s wild AF.
You know what they say. A horse isn’t quite until he’s fat (and sound) and quite!

[Snaffle17]

When I purchased my resale OTTB , I did radiographs of front feet and major joints just to make sure there were no chips/ocds/small stress fractures etc. I didn’t bother with flexions, but had the horse jogged on hard ground and had my vet palpate the horse’s tendons to see if there was any thickening or any major reactions. I like having a set of radiographs to show buyers.

[specifiedcupcake]

In general if it raced loads without a long break, and appears sound you’re better off. Never understood the ones that want low track mileage- I want the one who retired at 6+, raced loads and just slowed down because it means they stand up to hard work.

For a cheap horse you’re gonna keep, that appears even and sound? Meh - blood test, flexion, x-ray anything that comes up funky in the external exam.

For one you’re going to sell, I’d x-ray up to knees and hocks just so you don’t have any surprises. Typical stuff is leg/tendon, or SI. But if you do nothing and they find, say a non-articular knee chip that’s never caused any issues and that’s a surprise for you it might put off some buyers.

[tipzythegreat]

The trouble I find with an extensive PPE on a non-expensive horse are if it doesn’t end up passing. So you’ve spent 1k on a PPE for a horse you decided against for say early onset arthritis. I had a low budget for my first horse. I spent $300-500 on 3 different PPEs as the first two didn’t have results I was okay with.

If the horse is fresh off the track, and finished all his races (you can check this on equibase.com) and is sound for a basic PPE, I would imagine he will remain sound for basic retraining.

A buyer may do a thorough exam. A buyer may not. But, the buyer will be paying for that PPE. Maybe it’ll reduce the value of your project if they find hock OCD, but if you only paid 3k for the project and it is currently in work sound – chances are you’ll find someone who’s willing to pay a bit more than you paid

[Jleegriffith]

A reseller’s perspective…I sell upward of 100+ tb’s a year at my farm. I don’t vet a single one of them. However, I have extensive knowledge of lameness, I do my research and I buy from people I trust. My reason is that if you truly are a good business person you need to weight the costs vs the benefits of these PPE’s. My model is to get nice horses off the track and sell them relatively quickly to people who are using me to essentially sort through what is at the track and pick the best horses. If you look at pure proft then selling them quickly is the only way you make money.

That means I am buying a horse off the track most are in the $2-$3k range. A good sport horse vet is costing you $250 per joint. So you want ankles…great that costs $500 just there and that isn’t considering your PPE cost. How much am I going to sell that horse for in a month? $5k is about average. So my $3k purchase quickly became $4k with vetting. I might make $1k…maybe. That doesn’t really make it worth my time or efforts in dealing with the general shopping public in terms of profit.

Resale is a risk business anyway so my business model allows for losses at the end of the day and honestly it is very very rare that something major has ever turned up that is a deal breaker in terms of getting a horse sold in the future. That might sound far fetched but with 130+ sold a year it is maybe about 3 of them that truly have something that I would consider a whoops and it has been along the lines of a heart murmur, a chip they are sound on, a perfectly placed screw with no arthritis, etc. I would like to think that is because at the end of the day the horse is SOUND, was racing sound and jogs and flexs sound so it still sells maybe not for the same money but it can have a career.

If I was to spend my money xrays a TB for resale then I personally would take front ankles and knees. Hocks don’t bother me on a sound horse. Very rare to find something feet related on a sound TB. You are going to find more in knees and ankles than anywhere else that would be deal killers. Xraying backs is the new “cool” thing to do to kill PPE’s. Any good sport horse vet will tell you that radiographs are not an indicator of “kissing spines” but you tell someone that a spinal process is close together and they run for the hills. The next person comes in and buys the horse. I don’t get excited about it.

I suppose at the end of the day it is all about how comfortable you are with risk. Doing sales is a game of risk and I never buy something I can’t afford to lose on because it happens and you need to be able to afford to do the right thing when it does happen. If you aren’t educated in buying Tb’s off the track or evaluating soundness based of jog videos, race records, etc than a PPE would be wise. Track vets often pass horses that sport horse vets would NEVER pass so please keep that in mind as well. Racing sound and sound for sport can be two totally different things.

[beowulf]

I am with jleegriffith in that I don’t do PPEs either… but that is because I generally either know the connections and trust them, and I also have the luxury of being able to afford keeping them if they don’t work out…

Only one thing I would point out – x-raying the back is not the new cool thing to do… it is something people do after dealing with KS (or even CA) in a sport horse. Once bitten, twice shy…

I would absolutely suggest anyone who wants a long term riding horse to x-ray the neck and spine if they are doing a PPE. The reason being is that it is a common enough disease in TBs, and yes, remodeling is indicative of a problem. Some horses might be stoic enough to appear asymptomatic, but it does not mean that two intersecting or remodeled processes are not bothering the horse… OTTBs are usually young (as under 7 yrs old) and for them to have remodeling at 3 or 4 or 5 is sometimes something to consider for sport careers.

However… a PPE is only a snapshot and in no way indicative of future soundness issues. Honestly, I would bring someone extremely familiar with placing horses off of the track, someone intimately familiar with assessing soundness issues and reading into racing history; IME that can be even more valuable than a PPE, as many novice riders go to the track for a cheap prospect and don’t have the eyes or the know-how to realize their “sound” horse is lame. There are lots of warning flags and/or subtle things that can help you make a good and informed decision, and it’s invaluable if you are looking for a riding horse.

So, long paragraph short, don’t walk into this alone - take someone very experienced with you… or buy from someone who has the experience to sort the weeds from the chaff, like the poster above.

[Jleegriffith]

I disagree with the comment about the back simply because I have had may horses that have had PPE’s done and they simply are close…maybe touching but no remodeling. People call it kissing spines but vets will clearly say that just because they are close together does not indicate an issue in a sound horse that doesn’t palpate sore, goes nicely over it’s back and has no behavioral issues. Now if you haven’t seen the horse ridden/worked I think that would be harder to say there are many people and I mean many that are reading way too much into this kissing spine being the culprit behind everything but that is just my opinion from someone sitting on thousands of Tb’s coming off the track. I did have one that had some actual remodeling and even then there was this huge debate among the best sport horse vets in the country on whether or not the radiographs “meant” anything considering the horse was happily doing it’s job. I guess that is just the part we can’t really answer because some horses have some very bad films and are sound and happy competing and others have perfect xrays and won’t do the job.

I have gotten really interested in researching backs/necks because it seems to have really become a hot issue during PPE’s and causing a lot of people to walk away from really nice horses during a PPE that show no indications of having issues. What can be more frustrating is that five different vets will look at the same set of films of the back and have completely different opinions. It has been a very interesting experience as far as being a high volume reseller.

I suppose you can’t really say if 10yrs down the road the close vertebra might be an issue or not but I think in horses having that crystal ball is so hard and I try to just look at the horse that is currently in front of me. I can feel so much when I sit on a horse in terms of how they use their back and there are always so many things you can do to manage backs that I am not sure I would rule any horse out based on back xrays.