Wake Forest Claimed for $8000

[PeteyPie]

This story is like good news, bad news. It’s kind of worrysome to see a Grade 1 winner in an $8000 claiming race, but what a nice and kind thing that one of his former owners, Michael Dubb, claimed him back to retire him!

https://www.paulickreport.com/horse-…rest-for-8000/

https://www.horseracingnation.com/ne…to_be_retired#

There was an interesting article I read recently about Germany’s Thoroughbred breeding program, the gist was that it was excellent and interesting how they do things. I’ll have to look for it (was it here in a thread?). I mention that because Wake Forest was bred in Germany.

Okay, here is one article which outlines the basics of the high standards set in Germany:

…breeding authority, for example, demands certain standards of a stallion prospect in terms of its racecourse ability over a period longer than one season, together with a record of any physical defects — whether inheritable or emerging from stable routine and competition — and having nothing to do with individuals that competed under medication.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/turf-thoroughbreds/germany-boasts-worlds-most-regulated-thoroughbred-breeding-industry/news-story/007d69b50e0d8ecac557d75e6098cc6e

I think that is very impressive.

[K_2]

I look at this stallion, who though a great racehorse himself, isn’t all that appealing to commercial thoroughbred breeders, and wonder why some sporthorse breeding program didn’t snatch him up?

His performance qualifies him for automatic approval with some registries, and I would imagine his conformation is fairly decent, seeing as he sold well at auction…

[snaffle1987]

I am incredibly surprised that no one offered Wake Forest a stud deal. He has been incredible consistent and sound and a real trier. He hails from a really great maternal line as well. Just goes to show North America’s lack of desire to stand a turf horse. Hopefully now that the article is out there, someone offers him a stud deal initially. See what he can produce. He deserves a chance.

[Palm_Beach]

@PeteyPie

There was an interesting article I read recently about Germany’s Thoroughbred breeding program, the gist was that it was excellent and interesting how they do things. I’ll have to look for it (was it here in a thread?). I mention that because Wake Forest was bred in Germany.

Okay, here is one article which outlines the basics of the high standards set in Germany:

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/turf-thoroughbreds/germany-boasts-worlds-most-regulated-thoroughbred-breeding-industry/news-story/007d69b50e0d8ecac557d75e6098cc6e

I think that is very impressive.

So what happens to the horses that don’t meet their standards?

[Palm_Beach]

@snaffle1987

I am incredibly surprised that no one offered Wake Forest a stud deal. He has been incredible consistent and sound and a real trier. He hails from a really great maternal line as well. Just goes to show North America’s lack of desire to stand a turf horse. Hopefully now that the article is out there, someone offers him a stud deal initially. See what he can produce. He deserves a chance.

There is not enough turf racing to go around. It’s a business decision.

[PeteyPie]

@Palm Beach

So what happens to the horses that don’t meet their standards?

It’s like the warmblood registries; if the stallion doesn’t meet the standards they are not admitted into the registry as a breeding stallion. They can still be used as breeding stallions apparently, but their value and fees diminish considerably because only foals of approved stallions qualify for race premiums. So I suppose they would be sold outside the country or gelded. Here’s a detailed explanation:

The big difference is that foals sired by approved stallions are eligible for German breeders’ premiums (currently 30 percent of prize money for 2- and 3-year-olds, and 20 percent for older horses), while those by non-approved stallions get nothing.

These premiums are a considerable factor in the financial planning of breeders, so the loss of them is a huge disincentive. Basically it means it is extremely rare for a leading German breeder to use a non-approved stallion.

https://www.thoroughbredracing.com/articles/country-where-stallions-who-have-ever-had-lasix-are-disqualified-breeding/

That article also describes the strict selection process which includes a “retroactive ban” on race medications such as Lasix and Bute. So a horse which was administered Lasix during a race will never qualify to be a breeding stallion in Germany.

He will be subject to a physical examination and must have correct conformation and prove his suitability as a stallion; five qualities are tested and given ratings, and a minimum mark must be reached. He must be totally free of any infectious disease and also of any congenital defect that could in theory be passed on to his offspring; rigs (cryptorchids) or parrot-mouths, for example, will not be allowed.

[Palm_Beach]

@PeteyPie

It’s like the warmblood registries; if the stallion doesn’t meet the standards they are not admitted into the registry as a breeding stallion. They can still be used as breeding stallions apparently, but their value and fees diminish considerably because only foals of approved stallions qualify for race premiums. So I suppose they would be sold outside the country or gelded. Here’s a detailed explanation:

https://www.thoroughbredracing.com/articles/country-where-stallions-who-have-ever-had-lasix-are-disqualified-breeding/

That article also describes the strict selection process which includes a “retroactive ban” on race medications such as Lasix and Bute. So a horse which was administered Lasix during a race will never qualify to be a breeding stallion in Germany.

So you think there is a demand for these horses and they all find great homes?

[PeteyPie]

@Palm Beach

So you think there is a demand for these horses and they all find great homes?

I think your question has nothing to do with the subject.

But let’s get to your question: what happens to horses which are not deemed of a high enough quality to be a breeding stallion?

First of all, your question implies criticism that a horse should be made a breeding stallion in order to have a good home. That is totally illogical and not ever the criteria used to select a breeding animal – or it shouldn’t be. It is, however, the rationale of backyard breeders: “well, the mare can’t run; I might as well breed her.”

Second, to address your question of what happens to horses not admitted to the German breeding registry: the same bad things happen to all Thoroughbreds which are not suitable for breeding stock. That means horses and mares which don’t perform well or have issues and all geldings. It doesn’t matter which country you are in, but the fate of a Thoroughbred after racing is not always good. Nor is it always bad.

Third, if we are talking about breeding policies, I think Thoroughbred welfare only improves with more restrictive breeding policies not less restrictive willy-nilly breeding anything.

Finally, do you think that a horse should be used as a breeding stallion in order for him to find a great home? Is that really what you are saying?

[Palm_Beach]

@PeteyPie

I think your question has nothing to do with the subject.

But let’s get to your question: what happens to horses which are not deemed of a high enough quality to be a breeding stallion?

First of all, your question implies criticism that a horse should be made a breeding stallion in order to have a good home. That is totally illogical and not ever the criteria used to select a breeding animal – or it shouldn’t be. It is, however, the rationale of backyard breeders: “well, the mare can’t run; I might as well breed her.”

Second, to address your question of what happens to horses not admitted to the German breeding registry: the same bad things happen to all Thoroughbreds which are not suitable for breeding stock. That means horses, all geldings and some mares. It doesn’t matter which country you are in, but the fate of a Thoroughbred after racing is not always good. Nor is it always bad.

Third, if we are talking about breeding policies, I think Thoroughbred welfare only improves with more restrictive breeding policies not less restrictive willy-nilly breeding anything.

Finally, do you think that a horse should be used as a breeding stallion in order for him to find a great home? Is that really what you are saying?

Wow you really went down a rabbit hole. I wrote one simple sentence and you jump the grand canyon of conclusions. Five paragraphs? Wrong wrong wrong.

[beowulf]

@K~2

I look at this stallion, who though a great racehorse himself, isn’t all that appealing to commercial thoroughbred breeders, and wonder why some sporthorse breeding program didn’t snatch him up?

His performance qualifies him for automatic approval with some registries, and I would imagine his conformation is fairly decent, seeing as he sold well at auction…

He isn’t necessarily “commercial” for WB breeders either. They have specific lines they want in their TB stallions, and while he is tail male to one of them (Mill Reef) it is very far back.

[vineyridge]

WB breeders should kill to get Wake Forest as a breeding stallion. His pedigree is so much better than modern American bred stallions. He’s tail female to Waldrun, a mare line that has produced numerous TB stallions used very successfully in WB breeding in Germany and the Netherlands for generations; he’s got Blakeney (Herod), a well proved line from Hugh Lupus; and he’s got Sassafras (Matchem) from the Precipitation line. He’s got Vieux Manoir, a truly great show jumping line. Most of the mares in his pedigree come from excellent lines that have been proved over and over again in sport horse disciplines. In fact, he is packed with jumping lines throughout his pedigree.

If I wanted to stand a TB stallions for WBs, I’d be trying to get this horse if his conformation is decent.

[LaurieB]

@Palm Beach

Wow you really went down a rabbit hole. I wrote one simple sentence and you jump the grand canyon of conclusions. Five paragraphs? Wrong wrong wrong.

PeteyPie’s five paragraphs make a lot more sense than your single sentence.

[ASB_Stars]

@LaurieB

PeteyPie’s five paragraphs make a lot more sense than your single sentence.

That isn’t new…:winkgrin:

[Palm_Beach]

@LaurieB

PeteyPie’s five paragraphs make a lot more sense than your single sentence.

Not at all. It makes no sense that a great horse who raced on Lasix even once cannot be approved for breeding. But since you know, what does happen to those stallions that are not good enough to go to the breeding shed? Those of us who actually put our money where our mouths are and try to rehab and find homes for these horses know how really hard it is. It’s hard finding a nice horse a home. The stallions go “out west” and who knows what happens after that. Nobody wants a stallion as a riding horse. But hey, snark on.

[Palm_Beach]

@ASB Stars

That isn’t new…:winkgrin:

It’s one thing to post an opinion that does not agree with someone else, but you are simply being nasty.

[nelson]

I love this story! I’ve never met Michael Dubb, but if I ever do he’s getting a hug from me, whether he likes it or not!

[LaurieB]

@Palm Beach

Not at all. It makes no sense that a great horse who raced on Lasix even once cannot be approved for breeding. But since you know, what does happen to those stallions that are not good enough to go to the breeding shed? Those of us who actually put our money where our mouths are and try to rehab and find homes for these horses know how really hard it is. It’s hard finding a nice horse a home. The stallions go “out west” and who knows what happens after that. Nobody wants a stallion as a riding horse. But hey, snark on.

You’re always talking about putting your money where your mouth is–but whenever anyone asks you for specifics about actual, real-life horses that you own, or race, or train, or whatever, well………crickets.

So I will feel free to snark on. Thank you for your blessing. :rolleyes:

[LaurieB]

@Palm Beach

It’s one thing to post an opinion that does not agree with someone else, but you are simply being nasty.

And telling someone she is “wrong, wrong, wrong” is not nasty?

Love the double standard.

[gumtree]

@LaurieB

You’re always talking about putting your money where your mouth is–but whenever anyone asks you for specifics about actual, real-life horses that you own, or race, or train, or whatever, well………crickets.

So I will feel free to snark on. Thank you for your blessing. :rolleyes:

“well………crickets.”

LOL, thanks for my morning chuckle.

I have asked several times and got the same

[gumtree]

@nelson

I love this story! I’ve never met Michael Dubb, but if I ever do he’s getting a hug from me, whether he likes it or not!

Michael was a high school buddy. I will pass this on when I see him. Not sure if he even knew my, my family’s involvement in racing in those years. He, I, we looked a lot different. Hair down to the middle of our backs, etc. I have some good pictures of him, us from those years. That I am tempted to post at times, lol. He looked like he could be Howard Stern’s younger brother.

He is Totally self made there is/was no family money behind him. We grew up in a middle class Long Island neighborhood. Unassuming, and genuine. He’s done an amazing job managing his racing stable.