Wanna help me narrow dog search? Smaller but hardy...UPDATE pg 4, Post #70

I recently lost my first dog, a Shiba Inu. I loved her size, ease to housebreak, calm reserved nature, low bark. Altho I was warned about no off leash, hard to train, and hating water, we could go hiking, canoeing, camping and she LOVED it. She’d always check back when hiking to stay within sight. Jumped right in the boat or water. We live in a city. Husband and I walk a lot, have access to green pathways and go to the barn daily. Maybe I got lucky with my dog, or unusually good at training, or… :). I’m nervous to get another as I’ve been told my Shiba was the “exception” to the rule.

I’m getting a bit older, so would like a dog that is known for more off-leash ease, biddable & outgoing, healthy, max ~20 lbs, moderate exercise req. I like look of mini Aussie/Amer shepherds a LOT, but some say moderate exercise - most say HIGH! I’ve also heard the Sheltie could fit my bill, and I don’t mind daily grooming (Shibas shed a TON), but can’t imagine walking a XC course and all the burrs/mud that long and heavy fur would trap. Maybe a milder terrier if that exists? I live in a tall 2 story townhouse with a small courtyard. Corgis are out due to all the stairs.

Would love to hear some suggestions to get me started. I probably won’t do anything until the late spring, but thought it wouldn’t hurt to start thinking. Plus, it helps distract me from my grief…

I wouldn’t say you need daily grooming with a Sheltie - weekly is usually fine especially if you have one with a proper coat (I can usually get away with weekly brush outs out with my cotton coated Sheltie all the same). With a good coat (that is a proper double coat with the outer being the “stand off” coat that they’re supposed to have) burrs and mud aren’t that bad. I take my cotton coat hiking and she WILL pick up burrs but mud isn’t too bad- I throw a Hurrta Worker Vest on her to keep burrs off and keep her visible (she’s fox-like enough to confuse an actual fox in the evening). Cotton coats usually only occur with BYB/Puppy mill types so if you’re are planning on going with a quality breeder, it shouldn’t be a problem. The coat isn’t as heavy as you’d think, it’s a lot of air between the follicles.

If you want max 20lbs, you want something on the smaller end of the breed standard and/or European lines, Americans lines tend to run bigger and heavier (at the same time, watch out for anyone breeding “pocket” or “mini” shelties, there is no such thing and they often has orthopedic issues). My current dog is 13.5" and 17lbs when fit, however, she is on the finer side, my last sheltie was ~15" and in the mid-20s lbs and was very traditionally bred for an American sheltie.

I’m biased, I love the breed and my family has had them for 3 generations now. Some are great off lead, I wouldn’t trust mine but she was a rescue with a lot of anxiety. Modern lines are usually more outgoing but the breed isn’t supposed to be truly outgoing like an Aussie or a Golden, they are supposed to be wary of strangers but not mean or aggressive.

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Schipperke? Hearty jolly sturdy

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I would say no to American Shepherds (formerly called mini Aussies). I have yet to meet one that is moderate drive. I have Australian Shepherds and none of them are as high drive as the American shepherds!

Now, sometimes an Aussie breeder will get a small Aussie in a litter: one that doesn’t meet the breed standards of height.
I know of one that is two years old, black tri bitch, 20 pounds, that the breeder has kept (not for breeding) and the breeder is looking to find her a good home. PM me if you are interested.

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We got a Welsh Terrier about 18 months ago after many, many months of research and thinking about what we could physically manage. I used to have sighthounds (Afghans and Salukis) and hubby had Weimaraners and German Shorthaired Pointers, but we are senior citizens now and needed something smaller. We are not big fans of little dogs–especially froo-froo dogs like Yorkies, Maltese, Bichons, Shih-Tzus, etc.–so after a lot of deliberation, we finally settled on a Welsh Terrier.

Welshies are generally about 15" at the shoulder and weigh around 20-22 lbs when mature. They are billed as being calmer than most terriers–which was a big plus–and although she definitely sparks at other dogs at times, she is rather reserved in her demeanor (as compared to a Jack Russell, Wire Fox Terrier, Scottish Terrier, etc.). Of course it helped that she is older (a retired show dog), so her activity level doesn’t drive us nuts, and my husband doesn’t mind taking her for walks because she looks like a “man’s dog” despite her small size. Another plus is that while she is just leggy enough to manage all the stairs in our house with no problem, she is small enough for us to easily pick up. And she is fairly quiet–doesn’t do much barking, and her bark is not loud or sharp or shrill like most small dogs (more like “arf-arf”).

If you like to do a lot of outdoorsy stuff, a downside is that because of their dense wooly undercoat, Welshies don’t tolerate heat and humidity very well (especially here in the south). But they do tolerate cold and rain much better than most small dogs (I bought her a doggy coat at Dover when we got her, thinking she might need it when we went walking in the winter, but she has never worn it—even when walking in a snowstorm!)

Welshies require a bit of grooming from time to time to keep them from looking like street urchins. Their undercoat will shed, but it tends to stay trapped in the coat so they don’t leave fur on everything. I usually run over her with a wire brush and comb once or twice a week, and she goes for a full groom (bath and clipping and nail dremel) every 4-6 weeks or so. They can certainly go much longer between grooms but she sleeps in bed with us and I don’t like stinky dogs–LOL. The downside of clipping is that the top coat loses its wiry texture and becomes very soft, but it is virtually impossible to find a groomer outside of the dog show circuit that knows how to hand strip a terrier!

They aren’t the brightest bulbs in the chandelier but since we used to have sighthounds and sporting dogs, we are used to dogs that sometimes need more “positive reinforcement” to do the right thing. We don’t trust her off the leash unless we are in an enclosed area, but again, we were used to that (especially with the sighthounds). She did pick up on housebreaking pretty quickly for a dog that had never been a house pet and she is getting better at recall although is quite hound-like in that she has this “maybe-maybe not” attitude. An obedience candidate, she is not.

We were apprehensive about getting a terrier—had some concerns about the temperament—but she has turned out to be a fun little dog and we are enjoying her immensely.

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Thank you for your info, Kemosabe. I’ve only known 1 bigger Aussie who had a moderate energy level. Friend of mine used to foster rescues for years and when she fostered that male, she kept him. I’m not ready to get a new dog yet, but if I was I’d be inquiring on that 2yr old. Just too soon.

Thank you, too DownYonder. I saw the Welshes on the Westminster stream. I did make a mental note about them, but as you said, have a bit of reservation about terriers/barking. I don’t mind the level of coat care you mentioned. After all, I did have a Shiba. She always shed to some degree and when the coat was blowing, taking her outside and brushing 2-3 times/day and vacuuming daily was not unusual, tho she was not on the furniture. We’re in the lower Great Lakes region, so extended high heat/humidity not a factor.

Will put the Welsh to my list to look into further…

A tad bigger than you mentioned but my Grandparents had Brittany Spaniels. I still love that breed… happy to go on any adventure or hang out with their people. The ones on the smaller side are about 30 lbs.

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Also just an idea… a fairly local pound just posted an American Eskimo dog (mix perhaps) that no one claimed while on stray hold. I can pass on the contact info to you if that’s up your alley. They say she is about 15lbs and seems dog friendly but that’s about the only info they have on her. I know it’s ahead of schedule but just an idea…

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As the owner of 3, I would never recommend them to a person looking for a moderate exercise dog. Some are, and you might get lucky to get one that is laid back (I actually know of ONE that is like this) but they are designed to hunt all day. So, most people would consider them a high exercise dog. Which of course can vary, but if exercise is one thing someone is wary of, I’d probably not recommend Brittanys.

I wouldn’t discount a Sheltie because of the grooming. They are bred to be out in the fields so their coat should be able to comb clean easily enough.

Definitely might be worth meeting some different breeds though. Any chance you can get to an all-breed dog show? My friend had Shelties and now Border Collies…both breeds are so very different in temperament to my sporting breed. It is hard to describe but really noticeable in person; difference in intensity, how they work together with their person, etc. My friend had a broken gate and I asked her if she worried the dogs would get out - she laughed and said they would never leave without her. My dogs would be gone hunting, no note, no backwards glance.

She then threw a bumper for her BCs for about a half hour and they never lost interest or had any diminished intensity. It was very strange to me. My dogs want to be “with” me but never would be that obsessed to work with a bumper. Her Shelties were similar in personality but not as intense. Definitely something that might or might not appeal to a person.

They may be a little bigger than you want. But have you considered a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever?
The guy that lived in the basement apartment at our old house had one. I really liked her. She was well behaved, happy to get up and go for a hike or watch a movie. She was a quick learner and knew all sorts of tricks. Could be left alone in the house, etc.
We only ever heard the duck toller “scream” when she was playing with other dogs.

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The Brittany is bigger and higher drive than I’d want, and the Duck Tollers are lovely but about 35-45lbs. I’d like something 20-ish lbs. A neighhor had an Amer Eskimo that was snippy and hyper, so I think I’m biased against them unless I met one. I’m keeping the Sheltie and Welsh Terrier on my short list so far:)

Look into Border Terriers. Tough little dogs, the right size, easy coat, less stubborn and more obedient than the majority of terriers. They are terriers though, so they dig, and don’t let your pet guinea pig run around loose. If I was looking for a small dog they would be on my short list.

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A Cocker Spaniel, English or American, may still be bigger than you want. A small female may fit the bill for you though.
I haven’t known more than a handful, but they were all friendly. Definitely biddable and trustworthy off leash.

It sounds like a sheltie or Irish terrier would be a good fit as well!

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Small, trainable, and athletic/adventurous always makes me think papillon: https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/Papillon/

The AKC page says they’re ~10 lbs, but I’ve seen larger ones out there (guessing in the 15-20 lb range).

Of the terriers, the facility I take agility lessons at is owned by a woman who does obedience (at a very high level) with border terriers.

The Shiba in my agility class was the most independent dog I’ve ever seen. It reminded me of trying to train a cat. She was bold enough though that I can imagine she may have liked the activities your dog liked. You could look for a breeder that does the kinds of activities with his/her dogs that you want to do with yours in order to stack the odds in your favor temperament-wise.

The Papillons I know are quite delicate, although they were bred to meet conformation standards. For example, you may need to be careful they don’t jump on and off your bed kind of delicate.

They are definitely athletic little dogs but are not “sturdy” in my opinion. Of course it depends on what someone means by sturdy. Sturdy to some people means more like a pug; or it might mean willing to go through snow or muddy puddles outside.

I don’t know any Border Terriers but I have heard they make good, independent pets.

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OP, someone upthread mentioned Schipperkes and that might be a good option for you if don’t want to go the Terrier route. They stand about 10-12" and average weight is 15 lbs, so are plenty small and lightweight enough to easily pick up and carry, and would not take up much room or affect the balance too much in a canoe. AKC has them in the Non-Sporting Group, but they are more like miniature working dogs in that they are alert and sturdy and like to be busy. They are more independent than most working breeds and can be stubborn, but they are generally much more trainable and reliable than most Shibas (a friend did Obedience with her Schipperkes and they did quite well!). They can be barkers, though (they were originally used as watchdogs as well as ratters), so you may have to work with them on that issue.

Another one to consider is a German Pinscher. They are bigger than Schipperkes (17-20" and weigh more) and are alert, fearless, highly trainable, and do not have a tendency to do excessive barking. They were/are used in Germany as stable dogs to control vermin and they are really cool little dogs.

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Thanks everyone for your continued suggestions! Because of Westminster, I’ve been looking at a lot of the breed judging online for the breeds that have piqued my curiosity or ones you’ve mentioned.

We looked at Papillon when my mom was looking. They struck us as very delicate, too. The Schipperke seemed a bit sharp/ in temperament, perhaps sim to a Rat Terrier? My good friend has 2 Borders that are 12 and 15lb. Almost verging on too small, but I’m sure if I fell in love I could find one slightly larger. My BIL had a Cocker that had tons of health issues. While I don’t mind tons of brushing, those dense heavy feathered feet/ears can really smell and trap dirt/moisture/debris. I will look into the Pinscher, tho I do gravitate to a softer/sweeter looking dog. Thank you!!

I am a breeder of border terriers, and most are 15+ pounds. Many males nowadays are 17 or 18lbs - they are very strong, hardy, and athletic dogs. For small dogs, they have significant bone and are little muscle machines. My borders full out wrestle with my male Doberman without any caution and can do everything he does. I’ve never really thought of them as small dogs since they’re so capable. But, if you are looking for a reliable off leash dog, a border terrier would not be what you are looking for. They are never, ever 100% reliable off leash, no matter how well trained. Their prey drive and terrier drive is just too strong for 100% reliability. Many can, with lots of work, be good off leash, but even my girl who had AKC obedience/rally/agility titles for days and a great recall would blow me off and run for the hills if she had something fun to chase (and hopefully kill). Wonderful breed and I love them dearly, but the little voice that says “chase and kill critters” is strong in this one!

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I keep coming back to this thread because I am helping a relative with her dog search, and her requirements are similar to the OP’s.

We are really leaning toward a miniature poodle at this point. I have long loved Standard Poodles but I have never been a fan of the miniatures or toys because most of the ones I have been around were very vocal and very high-strung. Unfortunately Standards are bigger than what my relative wants, and I have been recently impressed with a barn friend’s two Min-Poos. They are from show stock so are pretty gorgeous, and my friend says they were super easy to train–are very smart and eager to please–and are well trained enough to not be excessively boisterous or yippy. She keeps them in a kennel clip so they don’t look two froo-frooey and they are really cute, fun, friendly dogs. So there is another breed to consider. :slight_smile:

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I talked to Border breeders back when I was looking for my first size-down on dogs. That breeder told me exactly what Double Click said. Super super gamey. We ended up with a very hardy English hunting bred JRT, not a shorty. Had another JRT after him. Both stuck the property, stayed with the kids, never went in the busy county rd close to the house, ran loose on the property never had to pen them.

My husband picked up a throwback Pomeranian at the local shelter. It’s not the teddy bear version. They are throwbacks to the original German spitz. They are prized for agility. They appear randomly in litters. Tough sturdy velcro dog. Ours was Black & Tan, this is a google pic.
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And I had that delicate little flower :lol: a Papillon. What an independent little cuss that one was. Ran free range the property, tumbling over large tuffs of grass running in the pastures, queen of her universe here. Never had any issue with delicacy - jumped off beds, the chairs, the sofa. Too quick to ever get dinged by a horse foot. What a happy farm doggie life she had. I just can’t afford another one, got her on a whim.

And have you seen Gabby :winkgrin: https://slate.com/culture/2019/02/ga…-tiny-dog.html She did it again this year look for the 2020 video