Warmblood Approval?

[CloverTCS]

I’m looking for opinions on warmblood inspections and approvals.

I just recently purchased a 3 year old Trakhener mare. She is by Zarr (who is Trakhener, but is not approved) and she’s out of a Trakhener mare, who I believe IS approved. (I will need to confirm this.)

From what I’ve been reading, it looks like my mare would be inelligable for approval with the ATA because her sire is not approved.

I’m not planning to breed her any time in the near future, but may consider it down the road if she turns out to be a successful show horse. I’ve always felt like performance is the real test of quality…

If she can’t be approved as a Trakhener, can she be approved as something else? Which registries are worth considering? Would this significantly increase her value as a broodmare? Might it help with resale as a show horse?

Call me crazy, but I’m interested in participating in an inspection more to just see what it’s all about than anything else.

Thanks in advance for your input!

[Molly_Malone]

Yes she can be approved for breeding by any other warmblood studbook although which book she (and thusly which studbook her foals) can go in would be dependent on the Registry in question. She can only not be approved for breeding to produce approvable Trakehners - for the good of the breed - (I hope that makes sense).

[Sonesta]

If her sire was not approved, then she is not registered Trakehner. Although she might have a certificate of pedigree, that is not the same as registered.

Because she is not registered, she actually CANNOT be approved by most other registries in their regular books. She could be placed in some registries’ Pre-Mare books or Stud Book II recording books, but that is not the same as being approved.

Your best bet is to take her to RPSI (who could put her in their Stud Book II or MAYBE could put her in Pre-Mare book - call them to see which) or to GOV (who could put her in Pre-Mare book.

With RPSI, a foal from her by an approved stallion would get a half-brand.

With GOV, the foal would get full GOV papers, but if a colt could not be a stallion prospect.

[Molly_Malone]

Dunno Soneta - she is registered. Appendix or “D” papers are not COPs. And Zarr, although not ATA approved is, I think, approved OldNA (?).

I suspect that it would depend to which registry she was presented as to which book she was put in, because she is full Trakehner, it isn’t as though she’s half QH.

Interesting question.

[COTHalter44]

@Molly Malone;6589751

And Zarr, although not ATA approved is, I think, approved OldNA (?).

Zarr is not approved by any registry. He was injured as a young horse and could not have a performance career. However, I was at an RPSI inspection as a spectator about 5 years ago and there were 3 Zarr foals presented. 2 received full brands, one a half due to the mare’s pedigree. Now, that could have been a mistake on their part (host was very unorganized and it was chaos) and all 3 were supposed to get half brands but it was very interesting. I did not get a chance to ask why the 2 were fully branded.

[Sonesta]

Molly, I understand the situation, but the legitimate warmblood registries require 4 generations of APPROVED blood. This the mare does not have.

And Appendix papers are NOT full registration.

And, please understand. This is not a reflection on the quality of the mare. Just the real problem that occurs when a stallion (or mare) is bred when they are not approved - no matter the reason.

[Molly_Malone]

@Sonesta;6589838

Molly, I understand the situation, but the legitimate warmblood registries require 4 generations of APPROVED blood. This the mare does not have.

Got it.

[Twisted_River]

[QUOTE=Sonesta;6589838]
Molly, I understand the situation, but the legitimate warmblood registries require 4 generations of APPROVED blood. This the mare does not have.

And Appendix papers are NOT full registration.[/QUOTE]
The way I am interpreting “approved” is not the same way you are. I may be wrong. The way I interpret the verbage is that the mare has a certificate of pedigree from an approved breed - not from specifically “approved for breeding” horses. As long as the mare has a certificate of pedigree from an “approved” breed (Trak), and said pedigree contains at least the required number of generations of “approved” breeds (Trakhener/other warmblood/TB/etc) then she can be inspected and approved. That is exactly how Thoroughbred and Arabian mares are inspected and added into the studbooks.

Here is ISR/OLD specifically: How I’m reading their eligibility rules this mare could be inspected and approved for breeding even in the premium mare book based on her scores at approval:

"Premium Mare Book (ISR and OLD NA)
-An overall score of not less than 105 points and no individual score of less than 6.0 points.
-Proof of pedigree of 3 generations with more than 75% approved bloodlines*
-and an official registration documentation from an approved registry*.
*Approved Registries: Registration documents of the following registries will be accepted as proof of parentage, if they show at least a complete three generation pedigree or if official documentation of pedigree can be provided as a separate document (e.g. Equineline pedigree): American Hanoverian Soc., American Holsteiner Horse Ass., Am.Trakehner Ass., Arabian Horse Registry of Am., Belgian Warmblood Breeding Ass./NA, The Dutch Warmblood Studbook in NA, North Am.Selle Francais, Swedish Warmblood Ass. NA, Jockey Club, CAN Sport Horse Ass., CAN Warmblood Horse Breeders Ass., North American Shagya-Arabian Society
From Europe: All German Warmblood Breeding Associations, Belgium, Danish, KWPN, Selle Francais, Swedish
*Approved Bloodlines for Mares and Stallions are:
All European based Warmblood bloodlines from one of the listed European or North American Registries, Arabian bloodlines and North American Shagya-Arabian Society (if officially documented), Thoroughbred bloodlines (if Jockey Club documented)

Any Warmblood registry that inspects and approves thoroughbreds should be able to inspect and approve this Trak mare. I think some will put her into a “pre-studbook” and some would put her into a main or premium one, based of her scores.

As Molly Malone already said, I think the only one she’s absolutely ineligible for is the ATA.

[Twisted_River]

I believe she may be eligible for Hanoverian approval so long as her pedigree “checks out”
From AHS:
“Certain domestically foaled non-Hanoverian warmblood mares are eligible for AHS inspection and possible entry into the AHS Main Studbook pending pedigree approval by the Central Office.”

[NoDQhere]

I think RPSI may approve her, as much on her own merits as those of her sire. Zarr has sired a lot of winning hunters, hasn’t he? I believe this would be taken into consideration. I know of a mare who is in the Premium mare book who’s sire was an unapproved by any Registries Trakehner.

[DownYonder]

As stated above, ISR/ONA requires proof of pedigree of 3 generations with more than 75% approved bloodlines.

ISR/ONA considers non-licensed warmblood stallions in mare pedigrees the same as TB or Arabian stallions. Since this mare is by a non-licensed WB stallion and out of a registered WB mare, if she has official documentation from an approved registry, she would meet the requirement for proof of pedigree of 3 generations with more than 75% approved bloodlines, and would hence be eligible for MMB status with that registry.

Because it is the official NA arm of the Oldenburg Verband and must follow German breeding rules, OHBS/GOV will NOT consider this mare as eligible for anything but the lowest mare book (because her sire is a non-licensed WB stallion). Likewise, RPSI should not consider the mare for MMB status, either, since it is a NA division of a German registry. And AHS definitely will NOT consider this mare since her sire was not approved.

Will point out that ISR’s policy of giving non-licensed WB stallions the same status as WB stallions for purposes of mare approval, and the fact that they accept Certificate of Pedigree as proof of lineage, seems to defeat the purpose of having stallions licensed/approved. A breeder can breed to unlicensed WB stallions, get a COP, sell the colts as geldings, and present the daughters at age 3 for MMB status. And that is one reason why other registries such as AHS, OHBS/GOV, etc., are very careful about accepting mares from ISR/ONA. There have been a fair number of them coming to OHBS/GOV inspections over the years that are in the ISR/ONA MMB, but who have unlicensed WB stallions in the pedigree. It is a bit of a shock to the owners to have these mares put into the lowest OHBS/GOV mare books.

Just re-read the OP - she does not say whether her mare actually has any kind of official documentation, so without at least a COP, ISR/ONA might put her into their lowest mare book, too.

[Callaway]

[QUOTE=Twisted River;6589931]
I believe she may be eligible for Hanoverian approval so long as her pedigree “checks out”
From AHS:
“Certain domestically foaled non-Hanoverian warmblood mares are eligible for AHS inspection and possible entry into the AHS Main Studbook pending pedigree approval by the Central Office.”[/QUOTE]

It is very unlikely that she will be eligible to be inspected by AHS if her sire is not approved by any registry.

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=Twisted River;6589908]
The way I am interpreting “approved” is not the same way you are. I may be wrong. The way I interpret the verbage is that the mare has a certificate of pedigree from an approved breed - not from specifically “approved for breeding” horses. As long as the mare has a certificate of pedigree from an “approved” breed (Trak), and said pedigree contains at least the required number of generations of “approved” breeds (Trakhener/other warmblood/TB/etc) then she can be inspected and approved. That is exactly how Thoroughbred and Arabian mares are inspected and added. [/QUOTE]

Generally speaking, for the mainstream warmblood registeries, “approved” means the mare descends from animals “specifically ‘approved’ for breeding,” and not your interpretation. TB and Arabian blood are the exception in warmblood breeding – don’t look to them to understand the rule.

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=Twisted River;6589931]
I believe she may be eligible for Hanoverian approval so long as her pedigree “checks out”
From AHS:
“Certain domestically foaled non-Hanoverian warmblood mares are eligible for AHS inspection and possible entry into the AHS Main Studbook pending pedigree approval by the Central Office.”[/QUOTE]

Her pedigree WON’T check out with the AHS because the sire was not “approved.”

[ise]

The ISR/OLDNA does not accept CP’s or PHR documents for MMB. Mares can be moved up from PreMare and Mare if the produce the required # of premium foals and have the required score when inspected. Also with CP’s and PHR they can require blood typing to confirm parentage.

Chris downyonder - do you ever cease to try to denigrate the ISR/OLDNA? I can probably find the same problems which originated prior to the split Let it go - it’s such an old bone stop chewing on it.

[DownYonder]

Sorry if I was wrong about the COP part. But I was not wrong about ISR/ONA considering non-licensed WB stallions the same as licensed WB stallions for purposes of mare approval - I still have the email from ISR/ONA saying my mare by a non-licensed WB stallion was eligible for MMB.

And I still think the policy makes no sense. If I was a stallion owner who had gone to the trouble and expense of getting my WB stallion approved, I would be a little aggravated to learn that daughters of unapproved WB stallions have the same status as daughters of my approved stallion.

[netg]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;6590941]
Sorry if I was wrong about the COP part. But I was not wrong about ISR/ONA considering non-licensed WB stallions the same as licensed WB stallions for purposes of mare approval - I still have the email from ISR/ONA saying my mare by a non-licensed WB stallion was eligible for MMB.

And I still think the policy makes no sense. If I was a stallion owner who had gone to the trouble and expense of getting my WB stallion approved, I would be a little aggravated to learn that daughters of unapproved WB stallions have the same status as daughters of my approved stallion.[/QUOTE]

Well, that depends if you count eligible to be registered and branded vs. eligible for mare books only to be “the same status.”

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=netg;6591045]
Well, that depends if you count eligible to be registered and branded vs. eligible for mare books only to be “the same status.”[/QUOTE]

I am referring to eligibility for mare books - i.e., the daughters of unlicensed WB stallions are eligible for the same mare books as daughters of licensed WB stallions.

[ise]

Well turn it around and stop focusing on the Stallion. We have been very successful in building a very strong mare base in the is country after being poked in the eye so many times from Europe.
If a mare has a COP or is by a Stallion that was not approved she certainly SHOULD be considered for either a PreMare Book or Mare Book and SHOULD be considered to be moved up if she is producing high quality foals. After all the goal of breeding is the PRODUCTION of QUALITY OFFSPRING. The number of mares who have been in this category is not a huge percentage but by golly if they are excellent producers - why not have that pedigree information for other breeders to consider.

We have all too many STALLIONS in every single registry right now who checked all the boxes to be licensed and yet when you look at the quality of their offspring it’s average or below.

The goal is top quality performance horses (or ponies) - and I can tell you if you look at the papers of many horses in Europe you will see some blanks on the pink papers going back a few generations but the mares were top producers.

[Tiki]

For iSR/OLNA for Main Mare Book and Premium Mare Book

Proof of pedigree of 3 generations with more than 75% approved bloodlines* and an official registration documentation from an approved registry*.

For Mare Book (ISR only) and Pre-Mare Book (ISR only)

Proof and official documentation (of an approved registry) of pedigree of 3 generations based on more than 50% approved sport horse bloodlines*.

There is quite a difference between an official registration document and official documentation of pedigree - read COP.

Mares with non approved for breeding stallions in their pedigree are NOT eligible for Main Mare Book or Premium Mare Book. They are only eligible for Mare Book and Pre Mare Book unless and until they meet the following requirements. They are NOT eligible based on inspection and pedigree alone without an official registration document, and the only way to get that is if all animals are approved for breeding, not merely COP’s.

[LIST=1]

Mare Book mares who pass the Mare Performance Test with 70% or better and have presented at least one Premium Foal (with ISR) will be upgraded to the MAIN MARE BOOK if they fulfil the pedigree requirements described for the MAIN MARE BOOK.

A Mare Book mare which has sufficient proof of pedigree as requested for the Main Mare Book can also be upgraded to the MAIN MARE BOOK, if she has 2 (ISR/OLD NA) premium foals or fulfils the requirements for the third star in the Star Award System for Mares. The ISR registration of foals which have been born before the mare was upgraded cannot be changed into an OLDENBURG registration. Upgrades from other mare books or under different conditions are not possible.

[/LIST]Pre Mare Book mares are NOT eligible for upgrade to Main Mare Book.