Warmblood Education Needed

I’ve been poking around in this board and reading a lot of the threads to help understand the sport horse breeding world a bit more. I’m a TB/OTTB person as I love the breed and their personalities in general and under saddle. I don’t think I will ever be without one. But, I am considering purchasing a Warmblood in the future as I’d like to raise a young’in and have some experience with a breed that breaks less and doesn’t have pre-existing issues. (Yes I’ve worked with foals, yearlings, young horses before. Not new to horses, just new to Warmbloods) :slight_smile: Please note that this is not something that is going to be in the near future. I love researching and learning new things and just want to get a better grasp of the Warmblood breeds and bloodlines.

What differentiates the Warmblood breeds/registries? I know each has a different stud book/registry system, but temperament and blood percentage of TB-wise, how do they differ? I like a TB ride and would prefer a breed that utilizes TB blood recently in the breeding or that the TB has a strong influence on temperament. This will probably need to be decided on a breeding by breeding basis as each mating will produce a different type of foal, but I don’t want to get too technical. Based on what I’ve seen, it looks like Trakehners are a lighter bodied breed with more “blood” in a good way. Feel free to disagree and correct me.

The short version: I would like to learn more about Warmbloods, the breed differences, which one I would like best, how they are bred, how to find breeders, etc.

  1. What are the differences in Warmblood breeds? Which ones will have more “blood” and will ride more like a TB?

  2. What is the best way for me to learn more about the bloodlines and breeds themselves?

First do not call them breeds. They are registries. Crosses between TBs and Arabs and the carriage horses (loose term) in europe.

Buy some good books on warmbloods. You’ll find that many of them are closely related to your TBs. They are bred for sport, not for a line breeding of one breed of horse or another. And each registry can have horses that are approved by other registries.

I believe that Hilltop is holding an educational program in March. It’s aimed at breeders, but even if you are buying a warmblood for performance, it is important to understand the breeding goals of the various registries. I think it would helpful and should not be far from the OP. Also try to attend as many inspections as you can, although that won’t be an option until the late summer or fall. It’s an education, there is a learning curve, but the more you know, the better.

OP, I was you as a young sprout (just out of college) about 25 years ago. I had had OTTBs…tired of buying other people’s broken horses/mistakes, not a lot of money so I couldn’t write a check for a great 3-year-old, but I could pay that over time by breeding one for myself, knew a lot what I wanted in terms of a good mind and something about what I wanted in good conformation.

I bred a nice KWPN (Dutch WB) for myself using an American TB mare I owned and liked. FWIW, I had a great time, learned a lot, was very satisfied with the whole experience of making a horse for myself, my way from the beginning. And it cost so much time and money that I wouldn’t do it again.

If breeding/raising isn’t a really compelling project for you, I’ll suggest that the math says two things:

  1. Buy a horse already on the ground, preferably closer to being started under saddle.

  2. Buy the individual animal and, if you can, meet both parents.

This gets to your question:

WBs are indeed registries, not breeds. That means their studbooks are relatively open, not at all like the JC’s book for TBs. And what that means is that in picking a given registry-- say KWPN or Holsteiner or whatever, is that you are largely picking the selection criteria/breeding purpose that the arbiters of that breed hand in mind. And, to some extent, you are picking some dominant stallion lines. I’d say, too, you are picking a breeding strategy that admits more or less TB blood… at least that’s a feature of any registry/breeding program that will be of interest to you.

All this means that it can be a very long, complicated and deep research project to get to know these registries (and the lines within them) well enough to pick a given horse according to it’s pedigree. I wouldn’t try to do it. Instead, I would teach myself something about stallion lines** that have what I want, focusing particularly on those horses’ reputation for kindness, intelligence and tractability. And I would look for individual horses and pedigrees that had some TB blood up close. But I’d mainly be very critical in my evaluation of both parents: What had they done?** Who handled and rode them? In short, registry and way-back ancestry aside, was I buying “DNA that had done the job I’ll want my horse to do?”

** These asterisks are about the difficulty and necessity of evaluating the mare’s contribution. I think it’s an understandable and large mistake to leave the mare’s side of things so random. So in the best of all possible worlds, I’d be able to pick a stallion who stamped his babies and a mare (who most likely won’t have a maternal lineage that’s selected the same way), who had done things in her life and whose type meshed well with that of the stallion. For reasons of nature and nurture, it’s a really bad idea to ignore the quality of the mare’s mind. JMHO.

With respect to picking registries and, in effect, the history of their selection criteria, my story won’t apply now, but might help. I picked a KWPN stallion in part because, while the Dutch book was then open to TB mares, their keuring system was rigorous and conservative. Others (somewhat rightly) then complained that Dutch WBs were the most old skool, cart-horse like of the WBs around North America back then. But I didn’t want something like what the American WB Society has going on: A stud book for any cross that wants a certificate of pedigree.

So my OTTB mare was evaluated by a Dutch jury who came to the US with a translator; there was no NA-KWPN and no Americans trying to convince Dutch breeders that anyone should try to breed a horse for the American amateur hunter rider (Even though I was one of these and wanted one of these, I didn’t/don’t agree with breeding for that purpose.) I was prepared to scrap my plans if the Dutch jury told me my mare was a POS. That’s the nature of selective breeding and preserving the quality of a registry: You don’t get to breed whatever you want; you turn over that decision to someone who has much more experience evaluating animals.

And then her colt started in an Auxiliary Studbook. He would only get admitted to the Main Book (and branded) if he passed his own inspection as a three-year-old. I really liked the Dutch insistence of evaluating the phenotype of a relatively mature horse who brought in the rather “uncontrolled” or “unknown genetics” of a TB. It makes sense to me that there should be another “gate” to pass through (beyond blood/ancestry) for this kind of out-cross horse to get through before he’s accepted into the registry in a complete way and allowed to represent the type that “counts” as a KWPN.

If nothing else, IMO, you want to look for a registry that has a breeding vision and is focused on that or conservative and tough in its admission/selection criteria.

[QUOTE=WildandWickedWarmbloods;8525829]
First do not call them breeds. They are registries. Crosses between TBs and Arabs and the carriage horses (loose term) in europe. [/QUOTE]

If it is improper to refer to warmbloods “breeds,” it is at least equally improper to refer to them as mere “crosses between TBs and Arabs and carriage horses.” But alas, we digress.

OP asked for resources on the topic of warmbloods. OP might wish to start with Chris Hector’s book “The Making of the Modern Warmblood - From Gotthard to Gribaldi.”

Helpful guys, thank you!

Also, thank you mvp for taking the time to type all that out. There is a lot of great information in your post/story.

[QUOTE=shadedingray;8525783]
I’d like to raise a young’in and have some experience with a breed that breaks less and doesn’t have pre-existing issues. [/QUOTE]

What does this mean? Do you have some assumption that WB babies break less and don’t come with issues?

Here’s something that might help you in your searches. Modern Trakehners were designed from their beginnings in the 1700s as riding horses, and riding horses only. They were rarely if ever asked to do any task but riding, and they are as close to a breed as you will find in warmbloods. All of the other WB flavors (this is a generalization) were created by breeding all purpose (pulling carriages, riding, farm work) mares to TB or Arab or Anglo-Arab studs. While the vast majority of warmbloods today are lighter than the all purpose horses used to be, the Traks have always been light horses. So far as I know they seem to have stuck to their breeding philosophy, which has preserved a horse with only classic Trak, TB, and Arab lines. They don’t, AFAIK, accept horses from any other registries for breeding.

We have some very active Trak people on this board who can tell you about the characteristics, temperament, and athleticism of their breeding registry.

[QUOTE=JB;8525924]
What does this mean? Do you have some assumption that WB babies break less and don’t come with issues?[/QUOTE]

Yes, in the sense that they do not have a high-impact job before their sport horse career like TBs typically do. All horses have issues and break, but please don’t take what I said too literally. TBs are rarely ever a clean slate and almost always have some pre-existing issue or condition that may or may not bother them throughout their second careers.

You can find young TBs who have never been in training.

I just wanted to be clear what your intent was, which (as I understand it now) you want something young and un-started,and feel it’s going to be a lot easier to find that in a WB.

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8525890]
If it is improper to refer to warmbloods “breeds,” it is at least equally improper to refer to them as mere “crosses between TBs and Arabs and carriage horses.” But alas, we digress.

OP asked for resources on the topic of warmbloods. OP might wish to start with Chris Hector’s book “The Making of the Modern Warmblood - From Gotthard to Gribaldi.”[/QUOTE]

I bought that book when it came out and was featured on this forum. It is OK, but not nearly as good as the books on warmbloods published in the UK and in europe. Warmbloods are crosses between TBs and Arabs and carriage horses of all types in europe. That’s the simple explanation. Of course those crosses have produced many great jumpers and dressage horses. But they are really crosses, not breeds. A great jumper will be graded into one or more registries based on his performance and not rejected just because his dam was a cart or carriage horse. (Of whatever breed or cross of carriage horse his dam was or wasn’t.)

Those of us with quality european warmbloods don’t mind if people call our horses mutts because people see our warmbloods and want to go out and buy ones just like them.

[QUOTE=WildandWickedWarmbloods;8526124]
Warmbloods are crosses between TBs and Arabs and carriage horses of all types in europe. That’s the simple explanation.[/QUOTE]

Almost as simple as calling warmbloods a “breed.”

[QUOTE=JB;8526055]
You can find young TBs who have never been in training.

I just wanted to be clear what your intent was, which (as I understand it now) you want something young and un-started,and feel it’s going to be a lot easier to find that in a WB.[/QUOTE]

Yup, that’s right! Sorry if my intentions were not clear. :slight_smile:

I honestly prefer TBs and if I could come across a “clean” one that was not race-trained and unraced, that would be hitting the lotto for me. But, I think it’s easier to buy a Warmblood baby from proven jumping/sport lines and have a better shot at getting a well conformed horse for the job. I love TBs dearly, but a LOT of them are not conformed to hold up well for mid-upper level sport. For now, my lovely little OTTB mare will cart me around the lower levels and ride around for fun.

You might also want to contact GAEventer here on CoTH. She is involved with the new Connemara Sport Horse registry which includes lots of Connemara x TBs bred for sport and with lovely dispositions and type. Unless you’re looking for something huge, you might find something perfect through her.

[QUOTE=JB;8525924]
What does this mean? Do you have some assumption that WB babies break less and don’t come with issues?[/QUOTE]

I think the OP meant that, on average, the horse she buys off the track will be more “broken” than will a young horse who didn’t race.

Or so I inferred given that I shared her experience and motivation when I was in her spot.

And if you breed one or buy one from a professional breeder, the horse doesn’t come with (mental) issues. After all, it either has only the issues you installed from birth on, or it was raised by a handler with lots of experience.

That said, I think OTTBs often come with great ground manners… thanks, again, to the business-like, professional handling they get.

Spot on, mvp! :smiley:

Don’t get me wrong, I love my TBs and they are always my preference. When I ride a WB, I often am wishing I was on my TB. Therefore, if I’m getting a WB, I would want a forward, highly intelligent, and sensitive mount. In plain terms, I like the spooky, complicated, “figure out all my buttons” type of ride.

I’m surprised that there hasn’t been any breeders starting a “sporty” TB breeding program. I know a lot of breeders that use TBs in their breedings, but aren’t breeding TB to TB.

Huntin’ Pony, I’ve heard good things about the Connemara x TB crosses. Do they have a typical size? I don’t really mind a smaller horse. My OTTB mare is 16h, maybe even a little smaller than that. I’m also pretty small - 5’4 and 125 lbs.

This breeder has some nice TB stock

http://www.foxhavenfarminc.com/ForSale.shtml

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8525890]

OP asked for resources on the topic of warmbloods. OP might wish to start with Chris Hector’s book “The Making of the Modern Warmblood - From Gotthard to Gribaldi.”[/QUOTE]

I can’t recommend this book too highly. Essentially it covers the major equine players in the European studbooks, and is very informative, and well written. I have an original book, and hopefully an index was added to any subsequent editions.

OP:

There’s certainly a range of size. I would say “most” are in the 15-16:2 category but there are many exceptions! Again, I think GAEventer is an excellent resource.

Cother “Janet” has a spectacular young half bred and has been a Connemara fan for years. And “Winding Down” is another Cother with extensive Connemara connections.

Another resource is www.ACPS.org which is the breed society’s web site. It covers Connemara purebreds, half breds and the sport horses, that can be less than half Connemara.

I have a son of Hideaway’s Erin Go Bragh out of a thoroughbred x Hanoverian mare and he is just a shade under 16 hands. He evented, fox hunted and competed through 4th level dressage successfully.

It’s definitely worth a look - they’re such fun!

Something that I have enjoyed are these videos called Germany’s Chosen Stallions. (Ausgewaehlte Hengste Deutschlands). They cover some of the top stallions and show footage of them and their offspring. Very enjoyable and educational.