"Warmdales" thoughts? Opinions?

[Green_pastures]

A friend of mine breeds clydesdales and has offered me one of his breeding mares for free as I’m very attached to her(and he’s keeping two of her fillies).

Shes 17 and has had 5 foals. Prior to breeding i showed her in hand and undersaddle as well as doing some dressage and hunting. Shes not 100% clyde(she’s 1/8th tb).

In the last couple of years while she’s been breeding ive started getting into dressage with my clyde/wb boy(out of the mother of this mare and by a Rubinstein stallion, not bred by me but bought as a weanling). I absolutely love my boys temperament and he’s so much fun to do everything with.

Hes now 8 and no longer a baby brain so I’ve been looking at buying another youngster but now I’ve been offered this mare im considering trying to replicate the cross since it worked so well with her mum. Unfortunately the wb sire of my boy died so I can’t cross back to him.

So I guess I’m looking for advice, is this worth it? Or did I just get really lucky with my boy?

If it is worth it then are there any bloodlines to steer clear of? (I’m not super familiar on wb lines asides from the big names)

If it helps, the mare is question is quite athletically correct. She managed to jump full wire with me. Her 3 clyde foals are all excellent types, her colt by a shire was exported and her (now 4yo) filly by a tb is being aimed for the 5yo jumping series and has lovely movement. The mare doesn’t have the standard clyde issues with cow hocks or a goose rump. Shes around 17hh and generally throws her height irregardless of the stallion. She’s very quiet and her foals all seem to have inherited her personality even from hotter stallions.

Thanks!!

[rememberthenight]

I have known quite a few good ones. Some where quite heavy, but you know her lines, and the mare has quality conformation (and isn’t a kill pen quality Clydesdale) and you breed her to quality stallion I would quests you will have a lovely foal. Sounds like something I would enjoy having in my barn.

[beowulf]

An old saying… if you like the son, breed to the father… Rubenstein is a wonderful sire. I think you could breed a Zebra to him and end up with a nice horse. :encouragement:

While not a fashionable choice, there are plenty of LL horses that are first generation draft Xs; some are better than others. Some do end up looking like they were put together by committee – if you’re not sold on Rubenstein, I’d look for stallions that have already crossed to draft mares and consistently put the same type on the ground. Realistically, there are athletic limitations seen in these crosses. However, there’s a reason the F1 draftX is so common among amateurs, they seem to be very reliable horses to ride.

You could also consider going with a TB or high blood stallion, since blood on top is usually very beneficial from a sport sense.

It sounds like the odds would at the very least, be reasonably stacked in your favor, since you’re starting with a mare closely related to your boy, and you’re aware of what she consistently has produced. That should help you figure out the best choice of a stallion, since you’re working with a mare that has given lots of examples of what she brings to the table. A good quality clyde mare is a wonderful thing to have in a breeding program for foxhunters & amateur riders. So long as you are breeding for you, have ambitions to keep whatever you create forever, I see nothing wrong with enjoying furthering the bloodline of a quality mare you love.

[skydy]

The photos, of horses hanging their legs over jumps, give me pause.

[sherian]

@skydy

The photos, of horses hanging their legs over jumps, give me pause.

the choice of those photos to advertise with does seem rather odd

[skydy]

A Warmblood x Draft or TB x Draft offspring is a grade horse. Breeding grade horses is always risky. If you understand that, and are willing to accept a poorly conformed animal that may not be sound in work, then go for it. You may get lucky or you may not.

I wouldn’t, but some people would (and do.) Unfortunately many poorly conformed grade horses end up unsound and on the meat truck.

[GoodTimes]

@skydy

A Warmblood x Draft or TB x Draft offspring is a grade horse. Breeding grade horses is always risky. If you understand that, and are willing to accept a poorly conformed animal that may not be sound in work, then go for it. You may get lucky or you may not.

I wouldn’t, but some people would (and do.) Unfortunately many poorly conformed grade horses end up unsound and on the meat truck.

This.

I wouldn’t do it, but if you’re absolutely confident that you would keep the foal long term, no matter how it comes out, than sure.

I treat breeding horses and dogs the same way. Both parents need to be very, very good representatives of their breed. They need to be sound in mind and body, correct conformation, and they need to demonstrate that they are at least capable of doing the job that they were bred to do. You should be fairly confident that a particular cross will improve on both parents, but you need to be ok with the offspring possessing the worst traits of both parents as well.

None of my dogs have been of breeding quality, whether a purebred or a cross.
For the first time in 25 years of horse ownership I might have a mare that I would consider quality enough to breed. She’s registered (Westfalen) and was the site champion at her foal inspection, conformation is correct, movement is lovely, temperament is good, but she needs to prove that her jump and rideability is good enough, and that she’ll stay sound (barring some sort of accident). Then, maybe I would breed her to the nicest warmblood stallion that I could find.

[B_and_B]

Draft crosses have become very popular, almost too popular since the number of quality purebred draft horses that are popular to cross (Clydesdale and Shire especially) are decreasing by the day. So, I would suspect that you could come up with a sellable foal, if you ended up needing to sell. My concern would be in the quality of the Clydesdale mare and how correct her hind end conformation in particular is. There are some really poorly built Clydes out there: the goose rumped ones or ones with heavy bodies but legs that go on for miles with no bone. But it doesn’t sound like that with her.
Since she isn’t a full Clyde, my usual whine about decreasing the gene pool of a rare breed by using the rare breed mare as the cross isn’t valid. Since she already has Tb blood, I would go with Tb again. Honestly, the TB/Draft crosses that I have seen (usually Shires or Clydes) seem to have worked out much better than the Warmblood/Draft crosses. The ‘horse by committee’ seems more likely with the warmblood cross, maybe due to the wider genetic variety of the warmbloods? I’m no expert.

[AKB]

The Irish have very successfully bred Irish Draughts and warmbloods, creating Irish Sport Horses. Many are talented and amateur friendly.

[Willesdon]

TB over a shire or Clydesdale is a common cross to produce a hunter here in the UK and there is no reason why they couldn’t do dressage, indeed, many do so.

[skydy]

@AKB

The Irish have very successfully bred Irish Draughts and warmbloods, creating Irish Sport Horses. Many are talented and amateur friendly.

They have. :yes: They also had requirements for performance and conformation of breeding animals http://www.horsesportireland.ie/wp-c…arch-20131.pdf .

There was a great kerfuffle when Warmbloods were introduced; https://horsenetwork.com/2016/06/dem…h-sport-horse/

There is no comparison between ISH, and the crossbreeding of unproven, uninspected horses of different breeds.

[B_and_B]

Irish Draughts are wonderful horses, however, they are not an actual draft breed being much more akin to Morgans for example than to the true drafts. And honestly, an awful lot of modern drafts have a fair bit of non draft blood. You have to look at things like the Brabant, Suffolk Punch, or Ardennais to see real ‘draft’.

[skydy]

@B and B

Irish Draughts are wonderful horses, however, they are not an actual draft breed being much more akin to Morgans for example than to the true drafts. And honestly, an awful lot of modern drafts have a fair bit of non draft blood. You have to look at things like the Brabant, Suffolk Punch, or Ardennais to see real ‘draft’.

Yes, and the rarity of those draft breeds came about after the mechanization of farming and the widespread practice of breeding of horses for human consumption, both of which ended a long time ago.

[GraceLikeRain]

@skydy

A Warmblood x Draft or TB x Draft offspring is a grade horse. Breeding grade horses is always risky. If you understand that, and are willing to accept a poorly conformed animal that may not be sound in work, then go for it. You may get lucky or you may not.

I wouldn’t, but some people would (and do.) Unfortunately many poorly conformed grade horses end up unsound and on the meat truck.

Eh. If the OP is breeding a structurally sound Clyde to a nice WB I don’t think there is an elevated chance of producing something that is so poorly put together it cannot be ridden.

OP, if your goal is to produce a horse capable of reaching X level or having a retail value of $XX then I think you run the risk of being disappointed. However, if you are interested in a good-minded solid citizen, I don’t see any reason why a thoughtful cross isn’t worth considering. Even if the horse doesn’t turn out exactly the way you want, there is a huge market for a well-started big boned horse who can cruise around a Novice course with an adult amateur, do some hunter paces, or just be a really solid trail partner.

With any one time breeder I think dedicating the time and resources to giving the horse a really solid start to life is the biggest obligation. I’d argue that it is way more important than bloodlines or registration. The average rider is on a grade horse. Grade horses that are sound and sane have market value. The issue becomes when a one-time breeder doesn’t appreciate the time and resources that go into safely bringing a horse from foal to solid citizen.

If you don’t give a horse a good start and then bloodlines/registration may be the only thing that piques the interest of a buyer enough to take on a feral 6 year old WB as opposed to a feral 6 year old grade horse. A nice draftX will always have a market if started well and brought along to be suitable for an amateur. If you’ve brought along a weanling before and have local resources to help if you get in over your head, I say go for it.

[skydy]

@GraceLikeRain

Eh. If the OP is breeding a structurally sound Clyde to a nice WB I don’t think there is an elevated chance of producing something that is so poorly put together it cannot be ridden.

OP, if your goal is to produce a horse capable of reaching X level or having a retail value of $XX then I think you run the risk of being disappointed. However, if you are interested in a good-minded solid citizen, I don’t see any reason why a thoughtful cross isn’t worth considering. Even if the horse doesn’t turn out exactly the way you want, there is a huge market for a well-started big boned horse who can cruise around a Novice course with an adult amateur, do some hunter paces, or just be a really solid trail partner.

With any one time breeder I think dedicating the time and resources to giving the horse a really solid start to life is the biggest obligation. I’d argue that it is way more important than bloodlines or registration. The average rider is on a grade horse. Grade horses that are sound and sane have market value. The issue becomes when a one-time breeder doesn’t appreciate the time and resources that go into safely bringing a horse from foal to solid citizen.

If you don’t give a horse a good start and then bloodlines/registration may be the only thing that piques the interest of a buyer enough to take on a feral 6 year old WB as opposed to a feral 6 year old grade horse. A nice draftX will always have a market if started well and brought along to be suitable for an amateur. If you’ve brought along a weanling before and have local resources to help if you get in over your head, I say go for it.

Bolding mine.

The issue is not if it “cannot be ridden”, but if it cannot be ridden for long.

I agree that the value in a grade animal is in its training and soundness. However, even when experienced breeders put the best to the best, it doesn’t always produce an animal with good conformation or athleticism. the grade horse needs to be sound as well as being well schooled.

When a novice breeder thinks of taking a gamble,in this case by breeding an unproven Clyde mare whose produce have “potential” and are being “aimed at” a discipline, it makes anyone familiar with breeding horses a little nervous. In the U.S., breeding is a free for all, and we have an huge excess of poorly bred animals that end up in trucks to Mexico or Canada (because we allow irresponsible breeding but we will leave our culls for someone else to slaughter.)

If the OP can afford to keep the offspring if it is in need of veterinary care and a home for life if it isn’t sound ,and they can and will provide it… OK. So many novice breeders say they will, and when reality hits, they don’t.

[JB]

There’s a reason quality Clydesdales (and saddle type Percherons) have historically been used to create F1 Fox Hunters/Heavy Hunters - they are actually pretty well made for ridden work. They aren’t random lucky crosses.

Flying W Farms (still around?) for a long time bred Clyde crosses and a lot of them were just lovely. Not GP level talented, but plenty good for even upper level Ammy stuff in a lot of cases.

There’s a bonus too that THIS mare has foals of known quality on the ground with one of them - by a TB - is heading to a 5yo jumper series. You don’t just send a generic “oh, he might be able to jump” horse into something like that.

I say if you have the $$ and the means to select a good stallion who crosses well on heavier mares (or mares who might be light but have a heavier pedigree), and have the means to raise a foal and (obviously) are willing to risk the mare’s health, and willing to accept that no matter how nice the foal he may catastrophically injury himself before he gets going, go for it. I am pretty quick to say “don’t do it” in “mutt” breeding, but all the right piece-parts are here :yes:

[Backstage]

Personally, I’d buy something already on the ground.

I’ve known some very neat heavy horse crosses, but I’ve also known some that really did not work out as the owners wished. There is no undo button, and unless you are really reconciled to the potential outcome of a horse that is unsuitable for you and tough to sell…its too risky for me.

If you are going to do it, I would place an absolute premium on picking a stallion that is rock solid in terms of his history of producing good brains. If the horse isn’t suitable for you, the best thing you can do to keep your options open is ensure that he has a good amateur friendly brain. One of the tougher situations I saw some years ago was a hot/not sensible WB/Clyde who had the Clyde size and was a poor mover. He might have been able to have a good life as a hack horse/lower level horse except the only people with the skill to ride him all wanted something fancier/more athletic/sounder.

[Janet]

@B and B

Irish Draughts are wonderful horses, however, they are not an actual draft breed …

This is common, but incorrect, perception.

“Draught” is simply the the British (English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh) spelling for the word that Americans spell “draft”. This applies both to “pulling a plough” and “air blowing through an open window”.

An Irish Draught IS a draught/draft horse. They were bred and used to pull a plough (plow if you prefer) before tractors were common in Ireland. But they were also used for hunting on the weekend, and pulling a cart to take the family to church on Sunday.

A Clydesdale is also a draught horse. Only the Americans call it a draft horse.

Yes, the typical Irish Draught is a lighter horse than the typical Clydesdale, but that is because farmland in Ireland is typically lighter than the farmland in the Clyde valley. Neither has been used to pull a plough in recent decades (except for demonstrations), but that is where they started.

Yes, breeding a Clydesdale cross is different from breeding an Irish Draught cross, but they are BOTH draught/draft horses that were originally bred to pull a plough/plow.

[Janet]

@skydy

Yes, and the rarity of those draft breeds came about after the mechanization of farming and the widespread practice of breeding of horses for human consumption, both of which ended a long time ago.

I am pretty sure they are still “breeding horses for human consumption” in Europe.

[JB]

The Irish Draught may have been used to do draft work, but they weren’t bred to only do draft work, and they weren’t and aren’t built like breeds bred solely to do draft work.

A breed developed for plowing, carriage work, and ridden work, cannot be built like a horse bred to only plow. The horse bred to do all 3 can do plow work, but not like a breed specifically bred for it. It worked for the ID because as mentioned, the soil was typically not as heavy

FWIW, Clydesdales were used in ID breeding at one point, but while the taller horse was nice, the loss of stamina, and a heavier horse, was not something they wanted. I have no idea how many current lines have any Clyde blood.

The Clyde was developed primarily as a draft/plowing breed, but some lines also with a “side hustle” of ridden work, which is why they are a good draft breed to cross with light riding type horses. Percherons are also of 2 types - heavier plow types, not really suitable for crossing for ridden work, and lighter carriage types, which are much more suited as long as they still have correct conformation (some of those carriage horses have had the hind end bred off them :no:)