Hi, so I have this horse that used to go in a gag but it was too strong on him and he used to go behind the vertical, we changed his bit then to a Copper Roller Dee Snaffle Bit but it was too soft on him now and he was leaning now way too much on the bit and since he has a bucking tendency that made it easier for him to buck, so me and my trainer decided that maybe a mullenmouth, short shanked pelham with converters to have equal pressure would be HIS BIT but he still leans into the bit and pulls me down and bucks. The bucking is just his temper, there is nothing wrong with him he is just a little brat, he is a gelding but acts like a stallion. I was told about the waterford, he is gentle in the mouth and when we changed to the mullenmouth pelham we found out that he doesn’t like the nutcracker action in the d-ring or the gag he used. I was told that the waterford would help with his leaning, and that it doesn’t have a the nutcracker action. Have you had any experience? I would get a full cheek waterford because we have a little difficulty with our turns.
He doesn’t like jointed bit because of the nutcracker action and when he has something solid like the mullemouth he grabs it out of your hands.
I have a waterford D that I use on my horse some. He tends to lock his jaw and pull. It helps some.
I hate to be “that person” on the thread, but how do you know there’s nothing wrong with your horse? Have you done a full lameness work up with your vet, particularly back/hocks? How old is he, and what is his training history? I can guarantee there’s a good reason why he’s trying to run off. Does he do it with your trainer as well?
I had an extremely tough mare that would pull really hard. We had her in a gag. After reading some posts here, I tried the Waterford. Unfortunately for her it did not make an ounce of difference.
I second the above question about soundness
If he didn’t like the single jointed bits, why not try a double jointed one.
Rein converters don’t equalize pressure, they make Pelham unnecessarily harsh because the ride can’t finesse, which rein to use.
My mare would take off bucking with me all the time and ignore the rein aids. Went from a single jointed snaffle to a gag type bit with no difference. I also used two reins with the gag to no avail. Played around a little and she now goes calmly in a Myler Mb 04. Turns out it was the single joint and tongue pressure she was running away from.
My horse pulls my hands in a waterford, but does pretty well in a lozenge.
I know because the vet and the dentist have seen him. And like I said, his personality is that way he does it to every one, he takes advantage of everything. He is a brat and it just his personality, the saddler saw me, my trainer and another trainer ride him and he bucked and the saddler said it wasn’t the saddle, it fitted perfectly, he is not lame we already did a test and he receives turnout, and 4 times a day 15 minute lunge because he is super energetic.
Yanno, the first time I found a bit to make a real difference was with a horse like yours. He was not accepting of his job and, while educated and rideable, could buck hard if he felt like it. He was not my horse; I was riding him for a pro who had been charged with selling him for a board bill. (Of course he was, of course she was, and of course I was the college kid crash-test dummy sent to ride him. Of course I rode him!)
In any case, the key to riding this horse was instability in the bit. That is to say, between my hands and the design of the bit, the goal was to give him nothing to lean on. This a-hole of a smart, cold-blooded paint was out to get you to not make him work to hard…. but not if that posed risk to him. So without a bit to lean on, he wasn’t sure he wanted to put his head that far down and lose his balance.
This experience (and riding another downhill mare in a Waterford buy a pretty good pro) taught me a couple of things about horses like this.
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Put more joints in the bit so as to decrease its stability. In your case, you might do ok with a loose ring french link. I have a lose ring french link with a Dr. Bristol-like little plate in the center. I think it provides a little “bite” on the tongue that I might need for a horse who (additionally) bolts. (Or rather, I might need to know I have that little emergency brake so that I feel safe and I can give him a tactful ride while he’s not trying to kill me.)
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A Waterford works only if you ride with a light hand and allow the bit to stay losoe in the horse’s mouth. If you fix your hand and/or the leaner comes to rest on it, the bit effectively becomes stable and bumpy. That’s not the purpose of the bit.
And another thing! Why not teach that SOB to cut out the damn bucking?!? He should know that he doesn’t get to do that. But I appreciate that you need to stay safe first, and that having the right equipment is part of that.
Good luck to you. Just remember that choosing this or that bit won’t help by itself. The rider needs some physical skill-- an independent hand-- and a plan for riding the horse intelligently.
I have a mare that tends to get a little strong and want to put her head down and curl up a little when she is feeling fresh, the best bits for her have included a port, which seem to encourage her to lift her head. Her favorite bit is a Mikmar D ring snaffle, she is very comfortable in this bit but doesn’t pull or overflex in it. I will say that I feel like the Mikmar bits work better on horses with larger mouths, like warmbloods. You could also try a segunda, but it sounds like that might be too severe for your horse.
[QUOTE=mvp;8010207]
And another thing! Why not teach that SOB to cut out the damn bucking?!? He should know that he doesn’t get to do that. But I appreciate that you need to stay safe first, and that having the right equipment is part of that.[/QUOTE]
mvp, you made me laugh out loud!
I have used a full cheek Waterford on my TB mare in the past. My understanding of the way the bit works is that your soft hands allow the bit to stay soft in the horses mouth with all of the joints being loose and nothing for the horse to grab onto, but when you pull back as mvp said, it becomes bumpy and straight, kind of like a mullen mouth. My mare would still lean and pull on this bit and I now think it she might have been trying to runaway from it. She goes best in a double jointed Loose Ring Happy Mouth with a peanut roller in the middle.
Good luck!
Could you describe the lameness “test” that was done? What is he eating? Age? Are you aware that lunging him multiple times a day could very well just help him get more fit, and therefore more able to act up, if he so desires? Again, how green is he?
There are so many super experienced horsemen and horsewomen on this board. If you provide more details beyond “he’s just a brat to everyone,” I’m sure some really great ideas will be offered. In fact, that he is like that with everyone strongly signals that there’s more going on here than a case of the cheekies, and bit selection.
Good luck, it sounds as though you’ve been making significant efforts to figure this out. 
Not going to comment on anything other than the Waterford question.
It’s my favorite bit and my go-to. I find it to be firm, yet not harsh.
Correct that it does not have the nutcracker action since it has multiple links. I like it for horses that pull but it can only do so much. It won’t solve your bucking issue.
So I know that the bit won’t solve my bucking problem, but I really need to find a bit for him because today we went back to the gaga and he was extremely behind the vertical, but when he is in the copper roller D snaffle or the pelham he just yanks the reins out of my hands. Does any one know of a bit that is in between, not so strong like the gag, but not so “soft” like the pelham and I say “soft” because that is how much it affects my guy, he is a hot tempered horse probably a 7 or 8 out of 10 but we have been having some problems with his bit.
What about attaching a rein to the ring on the gag bit and having a second rein on the actual gag for when you need it? Example: The gag I have is an eggbutt with holes through the bit rings for gag cheekpieces. You can attach your main rein to the eggbutt ring and have a secondary rein attached to the gag cheekpiece.
Just an idea…
Have you thought of trying a 3-ring?
[QUOTE=camilaochoa151100;8011957]
So I know that the bit won’t solve my bucking problem, but I really need to find a bit for him because today we went back to the gaga and he was extremely behind the vertical, but when he is in the copper roller D snaffle or the pelham he just yanks the reins out of my hands……he is a hot tempered horse probably a 7 or 8 out of 10 but we have been having some problems with his bit.[/QUOTE]
Well the temper is a problem.
But consider the horse snatching the reins out of your hands to be plain old rudeness. It doesn’t matter what bit is in his mouth. I don’t punish that kind of thing with my hands… but I’m not above doing it with my leg.
The curling up thing you can fix, too. Put the bit up into the corners of his mouth and do what you have to in order to keep the bit there. Just follow him around with your hand, higher or lower. The horse who gets too low gets kicked forward until he raises his head (and he will in order to keep his balance). Then I politely follow him with my hand. i don’t pull on him, but I don’t let go, either.
It just sounds to me like your horse hasn’t accepted that you will touch his precious mouth with the bit and he has to roll with it.
The tough thing is that the bigger the deal the horse makes out of not knowing how to accept the bit, the more skill it takes to fix the problem…. and that’s just when the beast starts to do things (like buck or run off with his chin on his chest) that scare the rider!
Maybe try using rolled leather cheek pieces instead of rope cheek pieces. They don’t “run” through the gag as quickly so your hand aids are less abrupt/harsh. If you aren’t already riding with two reins on the gag do that as well.
[QUOTE=JumperDiva;8010285]
I have used a full cheek Waterford on my TB mare in the past. My understanding of the way the bit works is that your soft hands allow the bit to stay soft in the horses mouth with all of the joints being loose and nothing for the horse to grab onto, but when you pull back as mvp said, it becomes bumpy and straight, kind of like a mullen mouth. [/QUOTE]
Yabbut, how does the full cheek figure into the action of a Waterford?
Did you use it for the sides that would push on the outside of the mare’s mouth as you pulled her around to the inside, colt style?
Or you used the bit keepers so that you could create a tad of pressure on her poll and/or the corners of her mouth? I think of a bit as having to be stable and your hands to be stable in order to use that strategy. So how does it work with a Waterford’s wobbly mouth piece?
Also, I wouldn’t describe a Waterford’s mouth pieces as “like a mullen mouth” under any condition. It does get still if you and the horse agree to pull on one another. But any movement from you and it moves.
In Western World chain-based mouth pieces are much more common. I think they have a bitting philosophy that goes with that (they never want a horse to push up into contact and stay there…. for legitimate training reasons). That invites them to choose unstable bits a lot more often that we would in English World. But those chain mouth-pieces and the training expectations that go with them can be scary…. at least to my Hunter- and Dressage-educated eyes.
Still I think the Waterford and choosing a strategy of instability has its place. I own a D-ring Waterford. I think it’s the most common kind.
