We attack the puppy mills but is the TB and Racing industry any better?

[Moesha]

I am asking about all breeding operations and activites.

I have stated that many, many, many OTTB’s have had fantastic careers at all levels of competition and in other areas as companions, pets, trail horses, which are just as important as showing.

I do not understand this constant persecution take some have on this? As far as TB’s ending up more likely to go to sales. The fact that there are a large number of them and some with problems with soundness before they are 4, leads them into a vulnerable category. Look at any website for rescued TB’s. HOWEVER, there are countless other breeds and crosses at the sales as well.

Now, are these “sales” and the fates just they way it is? A by product? Or a result of too many and or unwanted ones and we should look into this ( I almost cry typing the word unwanted in relation to horses)

Thanks

[This message was edited by Moesha on Jun. 01, 2001 at 11:05 AM.]

[Velvet]

Yes, these tales are heart wrenching and no, my horses have NEVER gone to slaughter–that I know of. The problem is, this can happen with a lot of different breeds, as many people are pointing out on this thread. It even happens with other animals. It’s the way we humans look at them–and I don’t think us horse lovers out here are going to change anything by discussing it over and over again out here.

I’m glad there are other people out here who have posted a reply stating that they have worked in the industry and that they have enjoyed an experience more like my own. Which only proves to me that there are many good experiences and happy endings. I have purchased retired x-racers for kill price and turned them into some very nice horses. Other people do it to. Do I have the exact figures? Nope. Sorry, but I wouldn’t know where to start, and if I did I’d probably be too depressed to do anything with any breed of horse ever again.

IS that turning a blind eye? Nope, it is coming from years of being on the planet and knowing that I can only do what I can do. And that everything I do that saves one of those horses is a drop in the bucket, but a lot of little drops fill a bucket.

As for the other comments that leave a general feeling that I’m off-base, all I have to say is that we all have our own opinions, formed by our own experiences, and this board is for our airing of those opinions. Whether they are popular or not is debateable amongst ourselves and our friends. I find mine mirrored by many people I know who have similar experiences, and yet I do come out here to also hear other opinions. I may and may not be swayed at times. I’m assuming that’s how it works for everyone else out here as well.

I LOVE TBs, but could NEVER afford to breed one with the lines I’d like. Nor could I afford to purchase one as a baby. So, I go out and pick them up when their careers are over and no one wants them. I keep them for myself, sell them to others, or help other people pick out a nice one. And that is what I do.

[Moesha]

I can’t go through all of the ideas that have been presented in the last few posts!

However, Velvet could you explain more of what you mean by this statement.

“Did you know that without the racing industry we would not have most of the drugs that keep our wonder ponies sound? Not to mention the operations that preserve soundness in our favorite show nags.”

I am not quite sure what you meant or mean by that?

Thanks

[HeyYouNags]

While I have a number of qualms with the racing industry, I’ve gotta agree with DMK, that the majority of horses going to slaughter are grade and/or poorly bred, and/or poorly trained.

But one point I tried to make in a previous post (but didn’t make very well)is that given all the money involved in the TB industry, some of us expect them to do better by their horses. I would like that fairly wealthy industry to show leadership in providing for their horses when they can’t have a racing career anymore.

Plus, there is some history behind blaming the racing industry for horses going to slaughter. In the early 90’s, tax law changes caused a lot of people to get out of the breeding business. Horses were dumped, and the figures for number of horses slaughtered per year skyrocketed. At the high point, somewhere around 1992, I believe it was about 200,000 horses a year. Then the number began to taper off, down to around 60,000 in 2000 (brain is fogging, but these numbers are available from USDA).

Went to the Virginia Livestock auction in Front Royal on Saturday. Watched a number of grade-type horses get picked up by the slaughter buyers. There was one underweight TB mare that I thought might for slaughter, but I think she went to a real home, or at least another trader. Man,those guys were practically drooling when this big, young Percheron came through the sale. He sold for enough to avoid slaughter for now, but the man who bought him is a Southern MD horse trader, who will probably sell him to the Amish. Out of the frying pan, into the fire.

(And a completely unrelated note: What does RZ look like? There was a chubby, graying, curly-haired, moustached man walking around the auction with an armful of Sheltie puppies, trying to sell them to anyone who showed an interest.)

[511]

True, I am generalizing. That is what an ‘average’ is.
What I wanted to know is the ‘average’ working life of TBs, QHs and Arabs.
If I go horse shopping I am not likely to luck out and get the exceptional individual I would probably get the average individual.

[neighsayer]

ON the subject of aptitude tests. When I adopted my puppy from the humane society I had to fill out an application form. I had to give them 3 references (that they checked). ONe of the questions I had a laugh about was “How long to you expect to own your pet”. I laughed and put down “forever”. Wasn’t so funy when I found out they often had people fill in 3-5 years.

[Weatherford]

I think the Irish and English TB’s are, for a large part, more healthy because of the greater emphasis on distance & age, as well as the great footing. Plus they breed for the hunt races (steeplechasing & timber) quite specifically. That, in turn, is the source of many great event horses.

[AHC]

Velvet, if they’re racing at 2, they’ve been broke and ridden before then. Their knees are not fused at 1-1/2. Age is not the only issue, but I think it is an issue.

I agree, waiting to ride them at 3, after they’ve been handled, led, long-lined, etc. before that, would be much healthier for them. My guess is that economically, owners don’t want to wait that long for a return on their investment.

[This message was edited by AHC ownerofspottedhorse on May. 31, 2001 at 05:26 PM.]

[Twister]

I think the difference between the TB racing industry and puppy mills is end use. TB’s are bred to be race horses. Their career and care is planned out from before it’s birth. In most cases, it is well cared for with an eye on future earnings.

Puppies are bred to be pets and the more that are churned out, the more money comes in. Mares can only carry one foal per year and can safely do this year in, year out. Bitches, OTOH cannot be bred at every heat and maintain their personal health, yet they often are. Puppy mills are not looking to improve the breed because any puppy can be a pet. The racing industry is trying to produce a race horse, so random breeding is not nearly as likely to get you a winner as more careful selection.

[windseeker]

Velvet, You are not the only one in the racing industry here. I currently own, train and race thoroughbred race horses. I then when they are done on the track find them new homes after I’ve put more trail and training time on them. I also have never started a young TB under the age of 2. It just doesn’t make sense to start them any earlier. I have on occasion put an exercise or racing saddle on them and ponyied them as early as the december before they turn 2. If we are talking about which breed has the most horses registered in a year what was it that On The Farm quoted? In the year 2000 thoroughbreds registered 36,7000 foals; Paints registered 62,511; and The AQHA registered 145,936foals. I think maybe we should look at the Quarter horse industry if you want to compare to a “Puppy Mill”. I personally have seen more quarter horses, paints and arabs go through the “killer pens” that thoroughbreds.

So, Velvet you are not alone!

[Miniwelsh]

if tbs only make up 10% of what is slaughtered each year, it certainly leaves a lot of room for fingers to be pointed everywhere - not just the tbs, that’s for sure.

And I agree - if we all do our little drops in the bucket, maybe someday we can make a big splash in all industries.

[Velvet]

From what I’ve been hearing (and a few things I’ve read) that millions of dollars spent in the racehorse industry to keep the horses more sound so they can make more money, have also benefited our sports. There is a cross over. They spend money on the research, and our horses get the new drugs they come up with to help keep the track horses sound because it is approved for horses.

A side note is that some of the things that take forever to be approved for people are approved for horses, and many horse people don’t worry and use the horse stuff–and find relief before it’s approved. Granted, I’m not condoning this behavior, and yet again, it’s a side benefit from all of the money spent to keep those other horses going.

Just what I’ve heard…

[Ann]

Too many horses are going to slaughter, be they race horses, Paint horses, Quarter Horses or grade horses. Rather than pointing fingers at any particular group, perhaps we should think in terms of being part of the solution. If horses have brought/do bring a great deal of pleasure and enjoyment to our lives, maybe we should give back by supporting some of the many hard-working rescue groups. Here’s a good one to join:

http://www.blackbeautyfund.org

Also, if you go from there to the “Horses in Need” section on the TIER web site, you’ll see an ex-show, ex-lesson chestnut TB on the feedlot with sore hooves…pretty sad to see how horses like this are just discarded when they’re no longer useful.

[Fred]

period. I agree with the other posters that we should not centre out the TB industry. I think one of the reasons is the dichotomy - and the distance - between the highest end and the lowest, that makes the fall so shameful.
But as I read each post, I feel sick and overwhelmed with the almost hopelessness of it all. In my barn right now is a multiple SP filly who ran her heart out every time she stepped on the track. A friend of mine who was one of her former trainers got a call from the trainer who had her to come get her before he called the killers. My friend said he walked past her 4 times without recognizing her. He called me, I coughed up the killer price, and she has been in my barn for months now. I despair of her ever being sound enough to walk -
but the problem is, as so many people have said, that horses, not just TB horses, are often “commodities” to be bought and sold, and a bottom line calling all the final shots. How those guys could at the end sell a horse to the killer for something like $300? This is the part I can NEVER understand. Is it too much to ask to have them humanly euthanized if there is no other option?
I go to the TB sales and always bid on broodmares that seem to be going for ‘killer’ prices. If they go up over that price, I can feel relieved that one more has escaped that end at least for now.
But when racing ends each season at the track, the biggest business is for the killers, their trailers coming in empty and going out full. Earlier in this long post I said “almost” hopeless - because each one of us can help - even if it is just a small donation to a rescue organization. And if you have an older horse, don’t give him away to “a good home”. Unscrupulous meat dealers have been known to pick up horses this way and then take them directly to the slaughterhouse. Maybe we can’t save all the horses, just one horse at a time.

[Moesha]

Well? Look at the yearling sales books, how many TB’s do we need each year? Is the TB industry just a puppy mill in disguise or is it the training techniques at the tracks and farms that are the problem? Should TB’s be raced at a later age to develop more?

[Miniwelsh]

the mare’s name was Raja’s Darlin’…1988 by Northern Raja out of Chorus Girl. Bred by Mag-A Stables in Maryland. Last known owner - Anthony Campitelli. Last known trainer - Todd M. Beattie. Last race was at Penn National in August of 1992. thanks for any help - I would love to see this mare live out the rest of her years in a pasture as she sure had a big heart.

[sprite]

Any opinions on the use of Lasix in racehorses? In my own personal, very humble opinion…if a horse is such a severe bleeder that he MUST run on lasix, that horse should not be bred, no matter how fast he is. I have been to racetracks where 90% of the horses entered had the little “L” next to their name in the program. How does this help future generations? Breed a bleeder to a bleeder, you get a bleeder…

Is lasix even legal in other countries? just curious!

[Velvet]

Take it from me, I started the two year olds. They come in from the field in the spring (at the age of two, or a month away from it since the mares are bred to foal out as close to January 1 as possible) and then they are placed under saddle. The training is typically grouped as 30 days, 60 days and 90 days (for those who are slow to learn, underdeveloped, or easily intimidated and need extra time).

They are not started as yearlings. I never had a horse under two. Most were a little bit over two when I started, and the really slow growers were started and then put out to pasture again until they were larger and able to handle the work they would be required to perform at the track (many times they waited another year–rather than burn out a good prospect).

I don’t know who you know that starts a horse younger than that…definitely not the stable I worked for or the other ones I knew of at the track.

(Running isn’t rocket science, and it sure isn’t dressage. This is why there are so many rogues at the track. They only get 30 days and then they are expected to learn while they earn. Thus the reason there is no need to start them any younger.)

[Twister]

As for the Lasix issue, not every horse who runs on Lasix is a bleeder. There is a strong belief that they run faster on Lasix.

[Robby_Johnson]

If you’re running 2 yo’s, Velvet, it would be unrealistic to think you’re going to start them the Spring of their 2 yo year then immediately start racing. IME, they’re backed as long yearlings (October), then turned back out for the winter.

I am glad, however, that you were able to start your horses slower. It does make a difference.

I’m with MargaretF too - overbreeding is overbreeding.

Robby

p.s. Thanks for clarifying finzean!