Exactly miniwelsh. And Velvet, I enjoy hearing your opinion and experiences! That’s what is great about this board --the wealth of experiences, and the differing opinions. I think it is nice that we can debate this issue without backbiting and namecalling (unlike when I posted my contrary opinion on the Equine Placement Network bb!).
Chondroitin sulfate and MSM are nutriceuticals, not drugs. There is no research of any merit behind them. (IMHO, and the HOs of many other science types.)
FWIW, in addition to having worked at the racetrack in a responsible capacity, I’ve spent additional years working on animal drug research. Suffice it to say I’m speaking from considerable experience.
There are currently 3 drugs approved for treatment of signs associated with arthritis in dogs - Bute (an ancient drug, approved in the late 50’s, IIRC), Rimadyl, and Etogesic. There will probably be a few more approved within the next few years. Bute was also originally approved for human use. Rimadyl and Etogesic are absolutely not being used in horses.
Your vets and the university vets have more likely been misquoted.
I board in a stable comprised of local OTTB. I am appalled at how old these horses look compared to the average QH or arab that I am used to seeing.
What percentage of OTTB spend their thrities packing around ten or younger year olds and what percentage are put down before then because their legs hurt so bad that it’s selfish to keep them around any longer?
Come to think of it Does anyone here know what is the average longevity of the the big three thourobreds, Arabs. Quarter Horses?
Is the clueless owners who want to sell their non-running 3 year old for $45K, because that’s a racing price. They’d rather sell to killers as opposed to finding a mid-range price and home for the animal.
I’m working very hard this winter and saving some $$$. I may be wandering the barns at Oaklawn next March.
Robby
Longer races, more turf races. And an intelligence/pet aptitude test to pass, license to obtain for anyone who wants to own a pet, large or small,
Not just the racing industry, but horse owners as a group.
How often do you hear,“Well she just is too much of and idiot, handful, “killer” (pick one) to continue to train under saddle”. Let’s just make her a BROODMARE.
People, because they have a WOMB does not mean you HAVE to fill it!!! I am beginning to think there should be a spaying clinic available for mares. I really think “Maresy” will do just fine never experiencing motherhood, thank you, she’s a horse for God Sake.
Of course there is also alot of good “gelding” material that hits the ground that is left entire. So what do we do??
The same as not supporting the puppy mills, be vocal, don’t purchase animals that are just there because, and do not breed anything unless it has superior contributions to make to the gene pool.
“The older I get, the better I used to be.”
Every single entrant in this year’s Kentucky Derby ran on Lasix.
Velvet, What other horse sports breed as many foals as the the TB industry here in the U.S.? Isn’t the lack of sport horse breeding compared to Europe a constant issue with many critics here? And along with this criticism the fact not being the horses or the breeds, but the systematic way it needs to be done and the time to develop horses instead of rushing them?
and the Hoof and Mouth disease…horse meat is at a premium. More and more people are selling their horses to dealers and getting big money for them.
Sorry to be such a downer but it’s a fact.
Moesha, I believe I attempted to address the foal numbers with my post on page one. You might find it toward the bottom of the page.
The statistics provided on the paint and QH breed confirm my suspicions. And there of course would be no accounting for the grade horses that are just bred because they can. Thanks for that data.
“The older I get, the better I used to be.”
They actually start writing 2 yo races in April at Keeneland at 4.5 furlongs. It takes a good 3-4 months to get horse that is in training for the first time or has been rested for a while fit enough to race.
I have no problem with standing corrected on that one. But I will still defend PORTIONS of the racing industry. I don’t think you can throw the baby out with the bathwater on that one…from my experience, which is obviously different that yours.
Well, I do have a racetrack reject. She is now 17 years old and pregnant with her 2nd foal. She has been approved for breeding the by CWHBA and is my former dressage horse. The only reason I bred her is that she suffered a career ending injury last year to her left hock. She is sound now but I have decided she deserved to be retired.
She raced in a total of 28 races with a record of 2-1-2. The only soundness issues this mare has are not related to racing at all but from a variety of different factors. OTTB’s can go on and be viable off the track as well.
The last published statistic I read this year on racing thoroughbreds going to slaughter stood at 80%.
Also, many of these are started by the time they are 18 months old. The January 1st birthdate weighs heavily into the factor.
Thirdly, the Greyson research facility, which has funded many of the major equine studies for health and lameness issues is owned by the Jockey club. There is also another research facility in Kentucky that has done maga work, for the same purpose. Without these facilities, the scientific research would not be where it presently is.
That’s the data. Beyond this, I am staying out of the fray.
I would be all for TBs starting to race later so they can develop more. It seems to me that one reaason why two-year-olds are raced is so that owners can start getting a return on their investment (purchase, training, feeding) sooner rather than later.
Of course I’m not that knowledgeable about racing, so I could be wrong… I’d be curious to hear from bbers who are more familiar with the racing world than I am.
Everything Cactuskate said! And…
I definitely think TB’s should be raced later. The steeplechasing industry has the right idea – steeplechasers aren’t allowed to race until they’re 4 or 5 (at least, that’s what I’ve heard, don’t quote me – just confirm it for me!). I think it should be the same for flat racers. People would blow a fit if they saw human children being run a mile as fast as they can go – why shouldn’t it be the same for horses? All the horses you see running in the Triple Crown are “toddlers” (face it, even Secretariat was running as the equine equivalent of a young child), and the two-year-old racehorses are literally babies. Why do you think so many racehorses break down? Their bones and cartilage haven’t fully developed yet. Not to mention the psychological damage that can be done…
Great post, Moesha! You got us thinking.
Have any of you worked at the track or for a TB breeding farm?
I have, and yes there are some bad aspects and some bad people involved, but it is roughly equal to that of all other horse industries. I don’t think this compares in any way to what puppy mills are doing. Those are pets bred for people who are clueless and they are animals that can be kept in small cages in small buildings. The cost ratio is completely out of proportion so it doesn’t relate in any way to TB breeding.
If you want to compare something go for the Arab, QH, TB racing and then see how they stack up to each other and to the H/J, dressage and western worlds. If you’ve been involved in any of them you would see that there are a lot of similarities. People don’t breed willy-nilly in the TB racing world because it costs too much…even to have on in a field isn’t cheap. No puppy mills here. Besides, the downside for the racing world usually is the upside for many other horse sports (which was already pointed out).
Don’t point a finger at something without looking at it from all sides. That’s all I’m going to say.
Most people train TBs by doing everything in the stall, even mounting for the first time, then they pony them around with a rider and then finally they let them go. That’s the standard formula. My horses were lucky, they had someone who was not born and bred on the track. I longed, long lined and started them like a normal horse…and I did it all 30-60 days. Sometimes I would take them out twice a day to help them understand and gain confidence. This is why they all behaved nicely at the track and later found fantastic homes. I agree that it’s too bad most track people don’t do this because “time is money.” I was lucky enough to be living at the place and have nothing better to do with my time than go back in the barn at night and play with my wards.
Even one horse with a clubbed foot who was super timid came out okay. He bowed out (yes, we knew it would happend but they still ran him and that does upset me), but later found a wonderful home as a trail horse because I’d started him slowly and made him trust and then I would take him out and wander through the hay fields with him. I think we just need to retrain the TB trainers…then we’d have even nicer horses fresh off the track. (Get them when they have a flexible mind and willing attitude and you’ll have a wonderful partner for life.)
You can beg to differ, but that was my experience. I lived it and trained them, and I didn’t start anything that young. I’m sure there are unscrupulous people around in the racing world (actually I’ve met some) but I think everyone is holding this group up as the bad guys for everything…ignoring many other things that are done to young and old horses in other industries. The good trainers and barns will always do things with a respect for the horses and the bad ones will treat them as a commodity and not care.
I guess I’m reaching the point out here, with this discussion, where I’ve realized everyone has a set of opinions that they’ve either read or heard about and I’m the only one who has a life experience of my own to speak about…and everyone is treating me like I have incorrect information. I think my sources are a little bit better than everyone elses.
I will just say that you can’t judge a person until you’ve walked a mile in their shoes. Too heck with the Brits and their comparisons, they do their thing and we do ours. I’ve “heard” about things they do that are not really on the up-and-up, but I’m not going to come out here and bash them or make comparisons because I haven’t seen it first hand or worked over there at all. I can only talk about dressage riders over there with any first hand experience.
Velvet
(Not pissed off, just disappointed that people keep repeating information they have never experienced.)
Oh, and NO, the large training facilities typically DO NOT long line their horses, nor do they teach them to longe. I do know this for a FACT.
Your so called “frustration” at the opinions and views posted here is boardering on shear arrogance. As Twister pointed out you are not the only one here with experience. In fact, there are probably many many people here with tons more experience and knolwedge then you.
Also your “to heck with the brits” was a rather narrow minded thought - the thoroughbred breeding industry is just as big over there as here, and as I’m sure Moesha intended, this disuccion surrounds “the puppy mill” effect of breeding racehorses period, it did not specify that it is about “American” racehorses. To ignore what is happening to the TB’s in Enlgand “the premiere nation of racing” is ludicrous. No, their practices may not be the same, but neither are they worse than what may be found here in NA. But the endgame of the breeding issuse remains the same on either side of the pond.
And as for your response to Puffin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Oh, and NO, the large training facilities typically DO NOT long line their horses, nor do they teach them to longe. I do know this for a FACT. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, seeing as the Horse & Hounds that Puffin read were mine, I also saw these articles, so are you then saying that an international magzine is lying? and fabricating stories? I find it interesting that you seem to call your knowledge in this a fact, yet in the same sentence you say you don’t know enough about British practices to possibly comment…