We attack the puppy mills but is the TB and Racing industry any better?

[HeyYouNags]

Interesting topic - thanks, Moesha!

I believe one of the reason tb’s are singled out for criticism is because of the money involved in racing. Most people who breed/own/train racehorses do so to make money. Potentially lots of money. There is a feeling, which I share, that it is wrong to burn racehorses up and then throw them away. The industry itself hasn’t been active in trying to place horses at the end of their careers. Thoroughbred Retirement Fund and such are privately funded non-profit orgs.

Are other breeds to blame as well if horses are overbred and wind up at slaughter? Of course. But it’s the racing industry that’s the richest, and that relies on the interest (through betting and race attendance) of the general public to make money off the horses. Not to mention that money bet on racehorses winds up lining the state tax revenue coffers.

So why shouldn’t this wealthy industry be expected to lead in giving back to the horses - without them, there wouldn’t be a racing industry.

With other breeds, yes, there’s overbreeding, but there are also lots of other uses for paints and QHs, most of which do not involve the risk of permanent injury at an early age that racehorses suffer. Every breeder should be careful and conscientious. (A fairly large number of QHs are bred for racing as well, with the same risk of breakdowns as tb’s.)

And let me add one more voice that says, “Yes, they are broken when they’re 18 months old.” I worked in the racing industry (at the track) for 5 years, and at tb breeding farms for more years than that. I even knew one of the people mentioned in the articles Miniwelsh posted. I’d like to add that the people riding the 18-month-olds aren’t necessarily petite jockeys or exercise riders. Some of them are plenty big. Did I see excellent, caring owners and trainers who started their horses later, and retired them as riding horses if they couldn’t race? Yes. Did I see ignorant owners and trainers who knew next to nothing about horses, not even enough to keep their stalls adequately cleaned? Yes. If you have a week or two, I’ll tell you some of my racetrack stories… (Umm, here’s a quickie - the guy with a piece of crap tb stallion that looked a lot like a Connemara, who thought the stallion’s testicles were making it difficult for him to run, and had a vet remove one testicle, to make the horse move better, but still let him be used as a stud. Would you consider that irresponsible breeding?)

And don’t forget that many, many more tbs are running at low budget tracks, where owners and trainers are barely scraping by, than are running in Triple Crown (or even stakes and allowance) races. Those cheap horses get the worst treatment.

BTW, the reason MD tracks can’t fill races isn’t because of a shortage of horses. It’s about purses, gambling, and slot machines.

Been there, done that, formed a strong opinion.

[Lori]

Oh, yeah, I remember my Dad having Bute for his back when it went out. Then I took 1/2 pill one day before work due to my own back pain.
Never again! I was stumbling around like I was drunk and had to be led back to the main office and sat down for the rest of the day.
Strong stuff for me!!!

I thought bute was not safe to use in dogs? Just something I would like to know.

“Come hup you hugly beast!” Surtees

[tle]

5 – I think your post is based entirely on generalizations, which we all know are never entirely correct. I happen to know many OTTBs who are COMPETING as they reach 20 (mine is 16 and currently conditioning for her first CCI* next month). I also have seen many QHs that have ulcers and lamenesses because they were pushed too hard too young (1 I knew was bragged about because he was going to Congress as a 3yo… 3 weeks later he was back in Columbus at OSU for ulcers). Problems happen in ALL disciplines and ALL breeds. Please don’t toss the flame thrower around with generalizations.

If Dressage is a Symphony… Eventing is Rock & Roll!

[gray17htb]

First off I have to say, great thread. A real eye opener. I also agree that way to many horses are sent to the killers. I have been around the track and have witnessed people calling themselves trainers that don’t know the first thing about horses and their welfare.It seems that if you can read (a little), write and pay a fee , well then you are capable of training racehorses. It is all about money. Doesn’t matter if it’s big money, just show me the money. I specialize in retraining exracehorses for the showring. I constantly get calls for FREE racehorses. The majority can be laid up from six months to a year and begin training 100% sound. There are caring trainers out there that would rather give their racehorse to a great home with a show horse career than sell them to the killer. There are also money hungry trainers that would willing take $600 for the racehorse instead of the $500 that the killers will give. That would mean $0 - $600 for your next showhorse prospect. Think about it. One more point I’d like to mention, Lasix most certainly IS a performance enhancer, any blood found in the airways makes that horse a candidate for Lasix, whether that horse bled himself, or was made to bleed.

[FirstCry]

I’ve always felt the TB’s were too young to race at 2 years old. But since I am not in the racing industry - I can’t really comment. I know for greenies I ride I won’t jump a fence until they are at least 4 or 5 years old. Depending on their own growth and mental behavior.

[Finzean]

Interesting comparison and a fairly close comparison without regard to the reproductive rate.

Race at later ages to help reduce breakdown and therefore decrease the number of “throw aways”.

Good idea about the ownership aptitude test, ETBW.

Just a thought, disgusting as it is, but euthanized pets from shelters are recyled. Read any dog food or cat food label and you’ll notice the ingredient “bone meal”. I watched the “body broker” visit our county shelter once a week to take the bodies. It seems to me that the brokering of horses for meat is not very different. Horses, like dogs, are bred indisciminantly for the most part. Many mares are covered each year with the hope of a champion but the odds are so stacked. These babies are pushed to excel and then when they breakdown it is so easy to dispose of them via feedlot sales, etc.

Perhaps if it wasn’t so easy to dump the underachievers who can’t hold up to the unrealistic (just my opinion) expectations, then the breeders and trainers might think twice about breeding the mares in the first place or at the very least give them a chance to develop before pushing them so hard…just my humble opinion…

There is no crying in baseball!

[Moesha]

I don’t think that everyone understood what I was saying.

There are thousands of TB’s bred every year.

100’s of times more than are people who want them after the racing industry is done with them.

I was referring to the overbreeding aspects, not anyhting to do with cruelty versus other disciplines or industries. I brought the racing industry in as a possible reason for so many being bred, is it the methods and goals of that industry that cause so many numbers of foals each year and subsequently the young age at which they are put to work that can and does cause damage further hurting their chances to become show horses or pets and increasing their chances of ending up in a terrible place like a killer sale?

Maybe some of you feel that is the way it is? Like any livestock business this is the result.

I am not stating my opinion, but am posting this in response to obvious misunderstanding of what I was asking opinions on in the first place.

Thank You

[This message was edited by Moesha on May. 31, 2001 at 05:07 PM.]

[Velvet]

So don’t support races where the horses are 2 years old. Wouldn’t that help? It’s all driven by the money. If the Derby didn’t have a big following, no one would sponsor it, and no one would race in it. Oh, and if you look at the records on some of those horses you’ll see some that have run their butts of and others that have been used very carefully to help them develop into champions and not burn them out. The Derby is for horses who are three years old.

Now, let me see, I seem to recall a glut of Arabs not that long ago. Seems to me that the breeding was outweighing the need in the market and the inflated values made the bottom drop out. Interesting. A lot of useless horses sitting around because they were bred to stand and trot on a line and couldn’t do anything else. Oh, and these horses are often started as two year olds (another mis-adventure of mine brought me too close to the world of competitve Arabians for my comfort).

I think it’s just a bigger target, the TB racing world, I mean. The others are just on a smaller scale, but it really is the same. Each has a certain size of participants and treats the horses like a commodity, and discards the unwanted ones in any way they can. This is why I don’t think you can hold the TB industry up as a poster (or would that be whipping?) boy for the horse world. I think there are many other areas that have similar issues.)

[Moesha]

Velvet, I really do not think anyone has made the sweeping criticisms you seem to feel have been made?

Also this “walk a mile in their shoes” is a difficult statement to make. People can form opinions without having participated in some activity, through their experiences and feeling and judgement of a situation. I am not arguing against your statement just pointing this out.

Dissapointed?, well I am a bit as well because no one has really addressed their opinions on the foal numbers. The numbers from large breeding operations which could very well be Millions a year and this without including private, smaller, and other breedings. This is the issue I was raising the numbers of animals bred each year, not cruelty or this method or that, just the numbers and their end results.

Thanks

[Miniwelsh]

Where the heck is Suzy with that frying pan…

[Velvet]

Did you know that without the racing industry we would not have most of the drugs that keep our wonder ponies sound? Not to mention the operations that preserve soundness in our favorite show nags.

A side benefit has been the fact that many of these drugs that are supported by the million dollar racing industry are only researched because of the horses, but later find use with our dogs and cats…and extend their lives and keep them feeling happy and healthy.

There is a side benefit…and at least they aren’t living in cages like lab rats.

( Now I know that will get some people worked up, but honestly I think it is strange that we sometimes don’t see the side benefits, too.)

[Showpony]

I have not read all the posts so maybe this has already been said but…

1. the horse who was SO lame in the post parade should not have been allowed to run. She should have been a late scratch by the state vet who watches all the horses warm up.

2. Lasix is a PERFORMANCE ENHACER whether the horse bleeds or not (so I am told). Many trainers put their horses on lasix if there is so much as a pin drop of blood. I have personally seen vets put horses on the bleeders list for trainers when the horse did not bleed at all!! (so just because a horse is on lasix does not necissarily mean it is a horrible bleeder).

3)What needs to be done (in my opinion) to make races fill is breed sounder horses not more horses. there are probably enough horses to fill races being bred but they do not last long enough to keep filling the races.

Just my observations being in the racing industry.

[This message was edited by showpony on Jun. 05, 2001 at 01:23 PM.]

[Snowbird]

One of the unique qualities of our sport are not only the individual differences between horses but also the differences of opinion as to what makes a horse healthy and happy.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What percentage of OTTB spend their thrities packing around ten or younger year olds<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am personally offended by the demeaning way this was interjected into this dialog. I run a Riding School and I can testify to the fact that horses enjoy being needed and wanted and cared for whether by one owner or rider in their prime or by a group of them in their old age. You have no idea how much love and care is heaped on these kind old teachers.

My experience has been that when they feel useless and unwanted they just rot and fall apart. I know some think it is kind to just turn them out and let them rest because they have earned it, but I find that when they are unused and therefore useless they become depressed and just give up living. Now, I am talking about sound old timers not those who are lame or have used up legs.

[Flash44]

The TB as a breed is being ruined by too much inbreeding and emphasis on speed. There are breeders who are focused on selling, and breed for an early maturing colt who can show a good turn of foot at a young age. And there are breeders who breed for soundness and stamina. Unfortunately, it is the former group who makes money at the sales. Also, Mr. Prospector was unsound but brilliantly fast. He passed on both these qualities to his foals, and was one of the most prolific and impacting stallions of the century.

TBs are bred to be athletes. You will rarely find them used as pleasure horses. They race, show, event, hunt, do dressage and are used to cross with other breeds to produce performance horses. You will find many more Arabs and QHs used as pleasure horses, and some (but fewer) are also used for demanding competition like TBs are. So the TB breed as a whole is subjected to a much more strenuous life than Arabs or QHs. So you can’t really tell which breed is “sounder,” unless you factor in the amount of strenuous physical activity each breed does.

And I hate seeing people lump TBs and racing into one bad group wholly concerned with making money. Most mares have a brief racing career and spend the rest of their lives having babies. Most stallions go on to the breeding shed, if not in TB racing, they are often used for QH racing or to cross with mares of other breeds to produce performance horses. Many geldings are recycled into event or show horses, but many also need saving. My horse was given to me by his trainer and owner, who felt that it was in the horse’s best interest to discontinue racing and find him a good home. He could have sold the horse for a couple grand to someone who would have continued to race the horse, but they were more concerned about the welfare of the horse.

[Miniwelsh]

Great point Moesha. Although I am a huge fan of the Triple Crown and watch every year, I have also seen the other side of the track so to speak. I have been searching for quite some time now as well for a mare who had one of the biggest hearts I ever saw. I watched her go as a 4 year old…head bobbing lame in the post parade…went from dead last and fought like a demon and won the race at Laurel. She was a grey '88 mare by Northern Raja (same side I believe as High Hearts) and would have made a lovely broodmare and produced hunters with heart and courage. I got her racing record and she went from winning everything to not finishing or finishing in the back in her last races. I have contacted her last recorded owner who has no idea where she is. I have found out that she has no recorded babies on the ground. As her last races were at Penn National, I worry that she may have spent her last days at New Holland or a similar spot. What a shame.

Sorry to take this off topic, but I agree that there are way too many tbs out there and not nearly enough homes after they wear out their “usefulness” at the track.

[Flash44]

Breeding horses is almost like a crapshoot. You can breed the best to the best and come out with something that can’t outrun the water truck. And Deputed Testamony was by nothing out of nothing, and hold a track record at Pimlico that he set in 1983.

Racing people are trying to catch lightning in a bottle. It’s that hard.

And if it was not for racing, we would not have the TB, and how many other breeds (ahem, warmbloods) have benefitted (is that a word?) from infusion of TB blood? How many sport horses have lots of TB blood?

Yes, the racing industry has weaknesses. But at least most people are honest about one thing - their goal is to win races and breed/train winners. It’s not a recreational sport. That does not excuse the abuse and neglect some horses suffer, but, for the most part, race horses are well cared for.

Let’s not throw stones oh glass encased hunter jumper world.

[Dementia_13]

Velvet, I think Moesha was attempting to generate a discussion, not point a finger.

My opinion – overbreeding is overbreeding, whether it is puppies or TBs. An awful lot of TBs end up at killer sales and feedlots.

[Puffin]

I beg to differ Velvet

I agree with AHC that many thoroubreds are broken in for the track beginning as early as 1 1/2. My brother gets Horse and Hound from England every week and many of their special racing issues talk about how to break in a yearling to get ready for its 2 year old racing season.

While it does seem to incorporate mostly lunging, long reining and ponying, they are also backed at that time as well. Obviously not all are broken in this early, but it does happen contrary to your belief.

[Velvet]

I’ll come back to a point other people have raised, which is to say that the majority of these horses end up having long and productive lives and only a few go to the knackers…which probably matches the average of homebred babies and those for the other breed specific fields (including warmbloods) that have long productive lives or end up at the kill farms.

Here’s my question to you on this part of the topic, Moesha. Is it really that far out of balance–supply and demand, I mean? What are the statistics and aren’t most of these horses going off do different disciplines when racing doesn’t work for them? Aren’t many of the TB mares going to warmblood-x breeding facilities? I guess to me I don’t see where, at this time, the supply is far outweighing the demand.

What statistics have you seen that specifically point out TBs as going to the knackers more often than any other breed?

(BTW, my previous reply was pretty much pointed at those who kept saying the same thing and yet were not able to tell me that they were the ones with the experience. That’s when I become frustrated. Guess if I was a judge no one but an eye witness or very experienced expert would ever get my time of day. )

[Miniwelsh]

Does anyone know what percentage of breeds make up the auction results?

The thoroughbred industry has been under attack for years by various rescue groups because of the overwhelming numbers of young tbs who go straight from the track to the killer pen when they are injured. perhaps the groups attack this indutry because it is an easy target, but the reason that it is an easy target is because these animals are bred to race. The various paints and quarter horses are bred to be performance animals and are not worked as hard as two and three years olds as racing tbs are and therefore probably have a better chance of being sound at 6, 7 on up.

I would just like to know if there is any research that could tell us the make-up of the killer auctions as well as how young the various breeds are at the auction. I would find that very interesting.

I would also like to know what everyone here thinks of the racing greyhound industry? Is that different because they are dogs or is that also acceptable?