Not all carousel horses.
This is mine, Charlie, a Fourth of July.
He is calm and agreeable, little ears softly back listening to his rider, full, loose bottom lip without tension, a hint of a smile on him, everyone’s friend:
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Nadine Cappellman’s horse was grand prix, not a young horse. My point being Gracioso, under Balkenhol’s training, still did not get “more comfortable with it”.
We are also breeding different horses than we were 20 years ago: more blood and some stallions that can pass on extravagant movement along with difficult temperaments. Jazz comes to mind and some of the Weltmeyers.
I think most national level judges in this country do judge what is presented in front of them. At the CDI level it’s a different ball game. In that regard it is a lot like international figure skating. Subjectivity will always have a degree of bias.
Unless you spend the winters in Wellington or on the European circuit, how do you prepare a normally obedient horse to a high octane competition? Our regionals and nationals are NOTHING like a three star, four star or five star in difficult crowded venues.
Look I am in no way defending Glamourdale or how he was judged.
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This is a good point. I watched video of the Wellington CEI5* GP Special the other day, and one of the commentators made that same remark. He and the other commentator were discussing the tension shown by various horses compared to their GP tests the previous day, and his comment was to the effect that some horses take longer to get accustomed to that kind of atmosphere and the only remedy is to expose them to it repeatedly. He went on to say how difficult that was to do in NA because we have hardly any other venues that can come close to matching the atmosphere found at many big competitions in Europe so it takes longer for many horses in NA to learn to “settle” in those kind of venues.
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I would say that you don’t need competition to get a horse used to high energy environment. Basically these people need to get out of their perfectly manicured rings. There are events like hound walking, participating in parades (4th of July), the various clinics for getting horses used to police sirens, waking thru noise, fire, mounted shooting, etc.
Getting a horse to settle in a new, strange environment is more about getting the horse’s mind to focus on the rider. The more weird and strange situations that a horse sees, the focus should be on getting the horse to focus on the rider. It is not ‘sacking out” or “de spooking”…these are exercises to connect the horse’s mind.
Heck…horses took soldiers to war with cannon fire exploding around them. Is it too much to expect these “highly trained” GP horses to be able to walk into a stadium?
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This. Easier said than done, of course, but giving a horse the tools to self sooth and look to the rider for input doesn’t have to be done by competing every weekend at Welly. It ISNT done by staying home and micromanaging the horse’s environment. Get the horse out into many situations in a stepwise manner and teach him that you’re not going to ask him to do anything he can’t successfully complete.
Why would we ignore/reward tense, anxious horses when relaxation and acceptance are right there in the tests? Judges SHOULD ding those rides. Realize I’m not saying DQ the horse, I’m saying you shouldn’t get top marks if the horse is tense which is… how the tests are written. There’s not a line that says “full marks can be given despite tension if the test is X level or above and the horse is super flashy and it’s a big atmosphere”.
Judges should score as the test is written. They don’t, especially at the upper levels, but they should. THAT is the core of the issue for me. If we decide we want to allow XYZ signs of tension and anxiety at XYZ level, then write it into the damn tests. At least then we are owning up to the fact that it’s considered acceptable.
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When I scribed for a CDI in January I wrote “tense” and “tension” many times, with different international judges, on different days. Lots of 6s, even some 5s. They’re always disappointed when tension ruins a movement in an otherwise capable pair.
I haven’t experienced your complaint that they aren’t scoring tests as written with regard to tension. Not at all.
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Yeah I agree. If you are going to mark down the OTTB or young horse at a show down for tension, it should be the same for the upper levels.
That being said I don’t really follow the upper levels enough to know whether this is done or not.
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Maybe it is our definition of not scoring the tests as written…
The numbers given for score have definitions. A “5” implies the ride was “Sufficient.” Is it ok for the these high level rides to be considered Sufficient when the horse is obviously tense and in some cases mentally checked out?
From the FEI Rulebook Article 432 Marking
10 Excellent
9 Very good
8 Good
7 Fairly good
6 Satisfactory
5 Sufficient
4 Insufficient
3 Fairly bad
2 Bad
1 Very bad
0 Not executed
I am not a high level judge…but this is GP…the highest level of dressage competition, so it seems that the obvious tenseness should be scored no higher than 4-Insufficient…which the Cambridge Dictionary defines as “not enough in amount or quality”. There are some rides that I would judge as Fairly Bad (3).
I attended a judge’s training symposium back in the mid-1990’s held at Gladstone. The judges platform was at C. Auditors were allowed to sit along the long side and the judges were there for required training to keep their license. Riders rode a test, judges judged, then there was a discussion on how they had scored. I recall Klaus Fraesdorf (RIP) who was very strict along these lines. My feeling is that it was during this time that the bling gaits were given weight and eventually trumped a quality, obedient, workmanlike ride.
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Taking my dressage horse to the local $4 gymkhana was the smartest thing I ever did. The arena smelled like cattle, the little kids careened around unpredictably, there were noisy crowds everywhere. After a few visits she was very relaxed and happy at every dressage show. 
Even better if we could do the gymkhana the day before the dressage show. We just trotted the patterns and had a great time!
I have started playing with some TRT method groundwork videos, and that is all about getting horses comfortable with themselves and less reactive, and from the point of view of someone who competes in dressage.
I remember going to the selection trials at LAEC way back when and they were very stern with the audience to be quiet and not close to the arena edge, and I thought that was completely backwards.
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Just wanted to add my thoughts on stretchies. Using them for a few minutes on saddlebreds is one thing.
Saddlebreds move more up and down than a warmblood. The height of their raised leg is where they encounter the most resistance from a stretchie.
A warmblood should have more reach, so I would imagine the height of the resistance is during the forward reach part of the stride, which would restrict the stride. I would think the horse would feel more like it is being tripped.
That is why when I read that they were being used in dressage, I was pretty horrified.
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The CDI 5* live stream from Wellington had a dressage judge doing the commentary, he talked a lot about tension but how the horses fulfilling the basic criteria of the movement would still get decent scores. I only watched the freestyle but plan to go back and watch the grand Prix and the special to listen to him.
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I hang out at hunter/jumper schooling shows and 3 day/2 day eventing schooling shows to get my horses use to a high intensity atmosphere. Nothing like a golf cart zooming by, large crowds and high energy horses going by. After learning to relax in that atmosphere, a dressage show grounds and atmosphere is a snooze fest. Don’t have access to the above, hang out with the western crowd and cows.
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Tension takes an 8 and turns it into a 6 or a 6.5.
Tension bad.
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Actually a good saddlebred should have reach as well - they want them to be up then out in almost an egg shaped motion (if you picture it from the side). I own a reject that was too up and down and what they call trappy.
A horse who doesn’t want to work with the stretchy or finds it restricting will just shorten the stride to avoid it. I have one who did this when he lived in saddlebred-land.
I think the fundamental problem with using stretchies in dressage is that it isn’t following the principles and it is focusing on the front end, which to my knowledge was NOT supposed to be the point.
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So the horse meets the basic criteria of the movement??? My question for those judges is how can the judges give anything above a “5-Sufficient” when the 2nd foundation of the Dressage Training Scale includes “Relaxation.”
Here is a link to the GP Test
Note the number of times that the directives mention fluency, elasticity, balance, quality of (xxx gait). In none of these can those qualities be correct if the horse is not relaxed and listening to the rider.
In the latest edition of the rulebook, the FEI gutted Article 401. No longer is there the section that states
The Horse thus gives the impression of doing, of its own accord, what is required. Confident and attentive, submitting generously to the control of the Athlete, remaining absolutely straight in any movement on a straight line and bending accordingly when moving on curved lines.
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I keep writing a long reply about the breeding and training and preparation of horses and deleting it because I can’t quite figure out why anyone is surprised that prioritizing breeding gaits and athleticism over relaxation and calmness is going to create a horse that is naturally hotter and tighter.
And then preparing them in an environment that is quiet and non-threatening that doesn’t prepare them for the real world causing issues of tenseness in the ring.
Hunter breeders and WP-bred QH lines breed animals that come out of the womb looking like they’d been hanging with Snoop Dogg for a few hours. They do this because the judging standards prioritize manners and calmness first, and then the rest of the stuff like gaits and performance comes second. You will not win in the hunter ring if your horse plays in the corner no matter how nice they are ** with the exception of some classes which allow for a more exuberant horse, but they still cannot be angry and tense.
The training, breeding, and show preparation methods have all evolved to fit the judging standards because what wins is what people want. Yes, at times it has caused some issues as people try to fit round pegs into square holes, but on the whole a horse that can go into the ring with little to no prep and clock around is worth its weight in gold because that is what wins.
These disciplines are not devoid of abuse, don’t get me wrong, but it is strange to me to read “we want our horses to be relaxed” and then breed, train and judge rewarding the opposite. And - while it is sometimes hard to tell whether a hunter has been LTD or injected with magnesium, most hunter riders think it is wrong and don’t argue that it’s necessary because “the environment is too stimulating”. Similarly so in WP-land.
Saddlebreds prioritize gait and athleticism over calmness and relaxation and the end result is a lot of waste via horses who are flashy but not sane and others who are saner but not flashy and end up dumped at sales without their papers so stallions don’t get bad reputations. And of course, training tools like stretchies and weights on shoes.
I’m not sure this is entirely coherent, but I just keep thinking - why are we so surprised? Why is all this shocking? And the only thing I can come up with is that it’s moved far enough from what it was supposed to be, and dressage has held itself in such high regard as to not have these issues, that it feels more dramatic when really it’s the same systemic issue that plagues all breeding and sport when humans have control of the reins (so to speak).
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Bingo! It is the judges that hold the keys to the kingdom.
There is nothing different in dressage than how dog show standards perverted breeds. GSDs suffer from hip dysplasia and bulldogs have to be born via cesarean because judges valued big shoulders and little hips.
I don’t think anyone is surprised. What people seems surprised is it took so long. There have been many times this issue has been raised, specific people have been pointed out…and TPTB do nothing.
Back in antiquity…like late 1980’s-1990’s some of the “old guard” dressage judges turned in their judges cards because they did not agree with the direction judging was taking.
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It’s not. But it IS frustrating.
BINGO. What makes Dressage such a frustrating subject when it comes to these issues is the fact that it’s devotees will endlessly expound on how good their discipline is for the horse, how “everything” is just Dressage with extras thrown in, how every horse could benefit from Dressage - and the worst, how everyone who doesn’t “do dressage” is a substandard rider and all other sports are worthy of ridicule and constantly criticized. Meanwhile, the discipline has its own glaring issues in what is considered Good Dressage - aka what wins. It’s pretty hard for someone to take the discipline seriously when it can’t even produce horses to its own standards. And no, you can’t easily separate “dressage” from “competition Dressage” in these conversations.
([quote=“pluvinel, post:76, topic:794334”]
In the latest edition of the rulebook, the FEI gutted Article 401. No longer is there the section that states
The Horse thus gives the impression of doing, of its own accord, what is required. Confident and attentive, submitting generously to the control of the Athlete, remaining absolutely straight in any movement on a straight line and bending accordingly when moving on curved lines.
[/quote]
I saw this and… yikes. Now, I admit I don’t compete in this discipline so I haven’t read the rules recently in their entirety, but is there any other language talking about relaxation and other basic training scale criteria? Or have they just removed that in order to keep rewarding flashy, anxious, open mouthed and white eyed horses? I didn’t really want to have the tests rewritten to match what the judges are rewarding, but maybe I got what I asked for. Personally I think based on the scoring rubric that a clearly tense horse shouldn’t be able to get above a 4. Realistically I would accept the top margin to be a 6, but I also realize no one asked me 
Wow this got long. Whoops.
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And maybe it was unfair, then, to show this horse in such an environment. Klaus himself was a mounted police officer so should know that not every horse is suited to the job. I’m still not going to say a CDI judge should be gifting points because of the environment. The standard should be the same, regardless.
And, addressing environment, on a local level I showed many times at our large regional facility. Dressage was the second class citizen at that facility, so they fitted our shows in between breaks in the large national hunter/jumper show roster. This meant that, often, they were doing construction or erecting tent stalls during the show right next to the show rings or warm up arenas. We all had the same challenges. Some horses could handle it and others could not. I think it made all of us prepare our horses better. At our GMO championships this year, the facility was shared with a driving competition…a few flags on poles (we have those too) is nothing compared to a four in hand of friesian stallions!
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Yikes on bikes.
Why would you remove that if not to “not penalize” unhappiness?
That’s got to be from pressure from current breeders, no? Otherwise why remove something that is what I thought was the whole point (beyond the gymnasticizing of the horse).
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