Were you surprised? (welfare in dressage at all levels)

[beowulf]

I’ve held off on replying because my opinion is fundamentally negative - but I don’t find dressage necessarily more abusive than other disciplines. I also agree that it’s not necessarily beneficial to be comparing to other disciplines - dressage should work on itself, as reining, eventing, H/J, and every other discipline should.

I think we can all do better. The one thing that is more obvious in dressage than most other disciplines is the amount of distress signals and unhappy body language that is front in center in dressage horses as they trot down the centerline. Most of these signals/behaviors are ignored or written off because the rest of the body appears loose or extravagantly moving. I haven’t enjoyed watching many UL dressage tests in a long time, because they show tense and unhappy horses even when they are well-rewarded and beautifully ridden.

There is a culture in dressage to completely ignore these distress signals, including in dressage meccas like Welly or Ocala. There are dozens of products out there meant to inhibit or reduce the expression of these signals - like the Tota-Comfort Noseband, or big cavesson/chin pads, etc. I think in this sense, dressage could do better in shifting their culture to be more sympathetic to listening to the horse, rather than trying to hide or disguise the signals.

It’s a tough question. At what point does an unhappy horse become a welfare issue?

[Texarkana]

@beowulf

The one thing that is more obvious in dressage than in any other discipline IMO is the amount of distress signals and unhappy body language that is front in center in dressage horses as they trot down the centerline. Most of these signals/behaviors are ignored or written off because the rest of the body appears loose or extravagantly moving. I haven’t enjoyed watching many UL dressage tests in a long time, because they show tense and unhappy horses even when they are well-rewarded and beautifully ridden.

It’s a tough question. At what point does an unhappy horse become a welfare issue?

I so agree with this. And that’s kind of what I meant upthread when I alluded to subpar horsemanship. It’s not uncommon for the horses to seem visibly unhappy.

To be fair, dressage does not hold the market on unhappy performance horses. It’s alarmingly common in all competitive disciplines. But it has always bumped me to see elastic-gaited upper level dressage horses scoring highly with ears pinned and tails wringing, especially when “harmonious presentation” is literally written on the test.

[fivestrideline]

@Texarkana

To be fair, dressage does not hold the market on unhappy performance horses. It’s alarmingly common in all competitive disciplines. But it has always bumped me to see elastic-gaited upper level dressage horses scoring highly with ears pinned and tails wringing, especially when “harmonious presentation” is literally written on the test.

I couldn’t agree more

[beowulf]

@Texarkana

I so agree with this. And that’s kind of what I meant upthread when I alluded to subpar horsemanship. It’s not uncommon for the horses to seem visibly unhappy.

To be fair, dressage does not hold the market on unhappy performance horses. It’s alarmingly common in all competitive disciplines. But it has always bumped me to see elastic-gaited upper level dressage horses scoring highly with ears pinned and tails wringing, especially when “harmonious presentation” is literally written on the test.

Definitely. I think the average dressage horse enjoys more therapies and ‘luxuries’ (supplements, therapy sessions, etc) than other disciplines might. I also believe the average dressage rider is willing to explore just about any therapeutic option out there, from chiro to PEMF to acupuncture, to see their partner feel and perform their best - most of them love their horse to pieces.

But then they, and their trainers, and their instructors, and judges completely ignore all the obvious unhappy signals, and that flies in the face of good horsemanship and is missing the forest for the trees.

Don’t get me wrong - my own horse is not the picture of happiness when I ride him. I’ve worked on that and realized most of what he was communicating was from finding what I asked difficult due to past physical problems. And real dressage is hard - why would a horse enjoy it? I hate going to the gym.

I’m morally grey enough to handwave some of these signals and behaviors in low level horses because (IMO) that is the trade-off for being fed and alive. Otherwise it would be a ‘French Vacation’ for some of these horses. “Servicably sound” has value for both parties. For the low level horses, it begs the question – is it a welfare issue to ride an unhappy horse? Is that the trade off - 1 hour of meh/unhappy, for 23 hours of having all other needs met?

At the pinnacle of the sport though, it’s unacceptable to see these UL dressage tests rewarded positively when the horse is so clearly tense and unhappy. It goes against the written directives of the test, but it also is highly publicized and touted as something to emulate. In today’s society where animal welfare is at the forefront, any video that shows an unhappy horse is going to be highly publicized. That treads into social license concerns.

[Manni01]

As far as I know an average German Warmblood doesn’t get older then 8. Not sure if there are better numbers more recently but some years ago that was it….

[Cowgirl]

This! I think this is a great question. Personally, I feel that the judges ignore these signs of unhappiness and tension and that each should be penalized. Once these riders get low scores due to the tension and distress (many signals can be penalized: tight back, open mouth, wringing tail, hard breathing, excessive salivation, whites of eyes, for example), they might focus on the base of the training scale and work on rhythm and relaxation. The existential question whether signs of abusive riding (overriding, excessive use of aids, force, etc.) consistute abuse. I definitely think the signs of abusive riding do not meet the directives of dressage and should be penalized. But it’s kind of hard to prove that the signs are from a specific cause from the rider such as you could prosecute abuse. But the judges can definitely judge according to the directives and stop gifting these rides with high scores. We all need to get back to the basics and spend the amount of time it takes to install them. Also, recognize that warmbloods do not fully mature until they are (on average) 8 years old and respect in training should be given to physical and mental maturity.

[gailbyrd]

What do you do with horses who AREN’T abused in their training yet at any particular venue may just “blow-up” and become a fire breathing dragon? Those horse/rider combinations ARE penalized in their scores, just better riders can ride through some of the tension (caused by the environment, not the training) better than other riders. AND THERE IS NO ABUSE in the training of that horse. Just a tense horse on that particular day. WHICH is penalized by the score.

AND it is GOOD training in many cases to go ahead and go through the test (as best as the rider can as long as the horse isn’t posing a danger to itself, the rider or the participants) as horses DO learn that if they act a particular way in a particular location, they WILL be able to get out of the work, even if its just in a training level test.

I’m sure most of us who compete have had that PERFECT warm-up, only to go into the ring and have your horse undergo a COMPLETE meltdown. I can tell you, the scores DO reflect that meltdown.

[beowulf]

@gailbyrd

I’m sure most of us who compete have had that PERFECT warm-up, only to go into the ring and have your horse undergo a COMPLETE meltdown. I can tell you, the scores DO reflect that meltdown.

Oh, for sure. I win the warm up every time, then forget to ride when the bell rings.

What I find interesting is there is a halo effect at the UL. I get dinged out the wazoo for busy mouth and other signals of tension, as I should - but it doesn’t seem to be as heavy a penalty the higher up you go. WBs have mastered the art of looking beautiful and elastic despite their obvious tension or unhappiness. I think that is part of the reason non-WBs get dinged more heavily for these flaws.

[Texarkana]

Is it a halo effect or are judges just blinded by fancy gaits and pretty neck carriage? I think we all can fall victim to that bias from time to time. But it’s frustrating when you watch a fancier horse earn markedly higher scores than a more pedestrian horse despite them both exhibiting similar flaws like tension.

Dressage is absolutely “easier” when sitting on a purpose-bred horse with big, elastic gaits and natural carriage than trying to execute the same test on a horse without dressage-specific breeding.

[Kemosabe]

@Cowgirl

Personally, I feel that the judges ignore these signs of unhappiness and tension and that each should be penalized. Once these riders get low scores due to the tension and distress (many signals can be penalized: tight back, open mouth, wringing tail, hard breathing, excessive salivation, whites of eyes, for example), they might focus on the base of the training scale and work on rhythm and relaxation.

Base of the training scale is not going to help a horse with high cortisol levels who is reacting to an intense show environment: Devon, and Global come to mind. On the bigger stages particularly indoors (World Cup) with its intimate setting, and then the big competitions: WEG, Olympics, European Championships the atmosphere is a lot.

I remember at the '97 European Championships how Klaus Balkenhol had to walk Nadine Cappellmann and her horse Gracioso from the warm up to the ring. That horse was very nervous and tense.The warm up was quite a distance from the stadium arena. He walked that horse right into the stadium ring before he let go. As soon as she finished her test, Balkenhol was there to walk Gracioso to the holding area.

Of course horses can react, feel stressed just getting on a trailer and going to a small show. Amplify that by 1,000 in these prestiges venues or championships.

I think CDI judges are more sensitive to the stress horses face in these challenging venues.

[Cowgirl]

Oh certainly some tension is produced by the reaction to the environment, but experienced horses that have been exposed to that tend to become more comfortable with it. I’ve also been in a situation with a young horse that had to be led up to the show ring. Sometimes it takes more work and more exposure. Look at Bateson-Chandler’s remarkable transformation (through groundwork she said) of her horse, who was rearing at previous shows. She took the time and a different approach. I respect that. Still, judges should not be high scoring a movement where there is no acceptance of the bit (i.e. Glamourdale’s open mouth and flappling tongue in the half pass recently) or as I saw in a test in Wellington yesterday, a 6.5 for a halt that actually never happened as the horse never stopped moving (moved from side to side) and moved off centerline.

[pluvinel]

@Kemosabe

I think CDI judges are more sensitive to the stress horses face in these challenging venues.

The rulebook does not instruct judges to cut rider’s a break for tenseness in a high energy environment. Judges should judge what is in front of them. The FEI has removed “submission” from dressage tests, but the tests still have a score for “General Impressions.”

[pluvinel]

@Cowgirl

Still, judges should not be high scoring a movement where there is no acceptance of the bit (i.e. Glamourdale’s open mouth and flappling tongue in the half pass recently) or as I saw in a test in Wellington yesterday, a 6.5 for a halt that actually never happened as the horse never stopped moving (moved from side to side) and moved off centerline.

Agreed. Judges should judge to the rules and judge what is presented in front of them at the time of the test.

[fivestrideline]

Exactly. If the environment is high octane, then the best prepared and most relaxed horse gets better scores there . Isn’t that… kinda the point?

[Alterration]

@beowulf

The one thing that is more obvious in dressage than most other disciplines is the amount of distress signals and unhappy body language that is front in center in dressage horses as they trot down the centerline. Most of these signals/behaviors are ignored or written off because the rest of the body appears loose or extravagantly moving. I haven’t enjoyed watching many UL dressage tests in a long time, because they show tense and unhappy horses even when they are well-rewarded and beautifully ridden.

I think this is the crux of the matter. Abuse exists in all disciplines and yes sometimes the results of abusive training win in all disciplines. But dressage seems to reward visibly unhappy horses, particularly at the upper levels.

I can’t remember whether it was USDF or FEI but one of them had an ad on Facebook last year that just made me cringe - it was a closeup of a horse’s face and the noseband and flash were super tight, the horse was soaked in sweat, mouth open, eyes showing white…sure it might have been a bad moment but it was a heck of one to choose as an ad!

I also think dressage riders have been particularly critical of other disciplines, especially online, so there is likely a bit of schadenfreude there. Even in this thread the bias about other disciplines has come out. Trust me - they feel the derision and belief that dressage is the “one true way” of training horses.

Overall I think all horses have made a great trade in working with humans. Wild horses live short, cruel, terrifying lives. As I tell my guys all the time, they get beautiful nutrition, the best therapies that money can buy, the best farrier work, vet work, saddle fitting, everything that I can afford - the least they can do is pack my sorry butt around for a half an hour a few times a week, with many cookies as a reward.

That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t always continue to try to do better as we learn more about what helps them stay healthy and happy. And there are lots of researchers working on that. I think some of this interest is the result of that, which isn’t a bad thing. We do have to be careful not to go overboard, as ultimately that will be bad for horses, but it doesn’t hurt to be self-critical and look at opportunities for improvement.

[Texarkana]

@Alterration

I also think dressage riders have been particularly critical of other disciplines, especially online, so there is likely a bit of schadenfreude there. Even in this thread the bias about other disciplines has come out. Trust me - they feel the derision and belief that dressage is the “one true way” of training horses.

I agree this is part of the paradox of the welfare of dressage horses. While all disciplines can be critical of each other, dressage trainers are among the most vocal when it comes to belittling everyone else.

I know that’s a dangerous generalization, but I’ve worked in nearly every single discipline at one time or another and the superiority complex among pure dressage enthusiasts is not imaginary. Sure, it’s not everyone… but it’s extremely prevelant. And all it makes me want to do is mumble amphorisms about glass houses.

[Montanas_Girl]

@Texarkana

I agree this is part of the paradox of the welfare of dressage horses. While all disciplines can be critical of each other, dressage trainers are among the most vocal when it comes to belittling everyone else.

This times 1000.

[ninakl]

My horse wears a tota comfort cavesson because he is a sensitive thin skinned redhead: The cavesson was designed to take pressure off of the facial nerves. I asked my horse what he thought and he gave it 2 hooves out. He can move his jaw freely and move the bits (he goes in a double) wherever he wants.

If you think it was designed to tie the mouth shut you should contact Charles Tota. Everything he designs; including his saddles, are based on horse anatomy including biomechanics and knowledge of were those sensitive nerves on the head. I had a great conversation with him in Saugerties. As an admitted science nerd I was quite impressed.

[CHT]

We (general population) are trained to like the look of a tightly arched neck, flared nostrils, and open mouth - that is how horses are presented in statues and paintings. Think about “good” photos too - people want ears perked and an arched neck…not a relaxed horse. That is what the average person (not necessarily a horse person) finds impressive/attractive.

[Alterration]

Agreed - look at carousel horses and old paintings too…