I think it’s hard to say if it’s real or not w/out watching the video - because the article could be interpreted as either she is the one who sees and says that the emperor has no clothes OR she is looking for clicks and a following and does it by screaming about the horrors of upper level dressage. Asking the question does not make me a blind follower. I also really don’t understand how you can press the bit up (from the article) but that also doesn’t mean it can’t happen either.
*let me be clear that I find the whole idea of a blue tongue abhorrent; Kittel’s horse does look distressed. But Charlotte Fry too? I’ve watched some of her rides and never anything that looked torturous so I am simply questioning the source and asking for more evidence.
The video clip shows a very nice ride of a horse that is “with” the rider. Perhaps we have different meanings of “tension”… a horse that is "with the rider is attentive and ready to execute the rider’s requests…not a horse that is out on a trail ride.
Here is a video of Patrick Kittel where he got a 73% on Jovian a few weeks ago. The rider is on the curb the whole time he is riding this test.
Look at the piaffe…according to the rule book, the piaffe is
The piaffe is a highly collected, elevated, rhythmical diagonal movement giving the impression of being in place. The horse’s back is supple and elastic. The quarters are slightly lowered, the haunches with active hocks are well engaged giving great freedom, lightness, and mobility to the shoulders and forehand. Each diagonal pair of feet is raised and returned to the ground alternately, with spring and regularity.
In principle, the height of the toe of the raised foreleg should be level with the middle of the cannon bone of the other foreleg. The toe of the raised hind leg should reach just above the fetlock joint of the other hind leg.
The neck should be raised and arched, the head vertical.
Yep, piaffe sucked big time.
Per the blue tongue - too much foam to see anything. Horse was very busy in the mouth and clearly in the canter work, was trying to pop above/escape the bit on occasion. Also, horse seemed quite tense or electric - not a happy in the work vibe at all.
I also don’t think a 73% is a particularly great score, considering the horse is likely considered an 8 or 9 mover… would love to see the comments from the judges [we can debate scoring basis somewhere else - i am not a fan of the gait score being what sets the baseline but it is what it is.]
Something to point out about a blue tongue that I don’t think anyone has raised yet; you have to be applying consistent (heavy) pressure with no release for minutes to get it blue. Even a few second release would help return color to the organ; blood flow and supply is instantaneous, especially to something as highly vascular as the tongue.
A score in the 70’s is “Fairly Good” according to the rulebook. I disagree. At a MAXIMUM, this ride is Satisfactory (score in the 60’s) and more like “Sufficient” (score in the 50%)
So we go back to what are the judges judging and why is this sort of riding being given the high scores these rides are getting?
So, haven’t read the rule book, but have been told that the judges are currently setting the score first based on the movement score then modifying from there. So then the 70% = fairly good w/r/t training gets thrown out the window. so yes, if what I’ve been told is true about the gaits setting the score - the judging doesn’t match the rule book. A really fancy mover can score a 6-7 even w/ tension or other mistakes.
I think we agree…I attended the L-judges program…mind you it was years ago…and I seem to recall the comments about the gaits. I need to look up the book to see what was recommended to L-judges.
But take a look at the FEI Judging document. If that is what judges are supposed to be judging, then the judges are not following that guidance.
Where to start
Pages 1-22 are boilerplate describing the gaits and movements.
Page 23 MARKING OF FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKES IN DRESSAGE MOVEMENTS
The most important task for the Judge is to keep the Welfare of the Horse in mind. Therefore, he/she must pay special attention to all signs of discomfort and penalize them significantly -be it by deductions from the originally intended mark for minor mistakes or in case of serious mistakes by a ‘Firewall’, i.e. by a mark that shall not exceed five (5).
Page 23 THE WALK - (Who overtracks 3 hoofprints in a collected walk???)
if the Athlete cannot collect the Horse and allows him to overtrack two (2) hooves or more the mark has to be diminished by a deduction, if overtracking 3 hooves or more the mark cannot be higher than 5.5 max.
Page 26 THE TROT (There is no mention of disunited trots…this is the most common flaw in the school of leg-flinging
Page 27 THE CANTER - No mention of 4 beat canters for collected canter…again a very common error
PAGE 29 - THE HALT ---- Ok…now we’re cooking…it is recommended to award a score or 1,2,3 depending on severity as defined:
severe resistance and disobedience throughout
halt barely shown
loss of regularity, breaking pace(s) for several strides
But then we get this… Recommendation is for score of 5-5.5???
halt very insecure (Max score = 5)
stepping back with two (2) legs
halt very inaccurately placed (~ 5 m before/ after marker),
very crooked
resting one leg throughout
Anyways…you guys can read the rest of the document.
My opinion is that the document has a lot of words. I think we (and especially judges) can all see (and evaluate) when there is a pleasant, workmanlike ride. The starting point would be a score of “Sufficient” (a 50%).
I prefer Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart’s approach to a subjective evaluation when he famously opined on whether something was pornographic, he said “…I know it when I see it…”
"… I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description [“hard-core pornography”], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it ,
I agree with what you’ve posted above, but 4 beat canter “a very common error?” I don’t think so. Show me a GP horse in international competition exhibiting a 4 beat canter.
Will try to find video. Typically you will see 4-beat canter in the collected canter of the pirouette…which is supposed to be collected canter, AND still 3-beat
Of the canter errors listed in the judging document, 4-beat canter is not there…or maybe I was reading too fast…which is why I mentioned it.
They expect a 4 beat in the canter pirouettes, in the FEI judging guidelines it says:
“In the pirouette or half-pirouette in canter, the Judges should be able to recognize correct and clear canter strides although the feet of the diagonal inside hind leg/ outside front leg – are not touching the ground simultaneously.”
I would like to know how the judges sleep at night. What a crying shame.
It really is sickening and in no way reflects a partnership between a horse and rider.
This is the standard sequence of footfalls in the canter. I think what this statement addresses is the “bunny hopping” seen where the horse loses impulsion and the 2 hind legs are “propping” and on the ground at the same time.
For a. correct right lead canter, the “standard” footfalls are as follows
Left hind (strikeoff leg)
Diagonal Right Hind and Left Fore
Right Fore
Suspension phase.
In the pirouette, the suspension phase is almost imperceptible.
In the 4-beat canter the diagonal legs don’t stay together and instead of a 3-beat gait, the diagonals are dissociated and foreleg hits the ground before the hind.
Hilary Clayton’s work, along with other equine biomechanics specialists, established that there is no suspension in the pirouette canter and that the very collected canter has four beats. They did this using force plates but also by slowing videos of a wide cross section of horses’ pirouettes down to frame by frame (which any layperson can now also do to see it.)
This result was published more than a decade ago and is by now fairly common knowledge.
A bunny hopping canter pirouette with both hind legs pushing off the ground at the same time is a big fault, usually the result of attempting too small a turn with too few strides.
But a pirouette without a suspension phase at all and therefore a subtle four beat footfall is not a fault. As mombc4 quoted from the guidelines. Because we now know that is what horses do.
I am aware of Hilary Clayton’s work. Here is the layman’s version published in USDF
The “4-beat canter” I was discussing is when the diagonal pairs dissociate and the front leg in the diagonal pair steps down. I was talking about this dissociation happening in an overly restricted pirouette. Clayton calls it a “lateral canter” which exists in some horses with that tendency.
The photos on page 26 are taken
from a video of a horse with a lateral
canter. The problem is initiated when
the trailing forelimb leaves the ground
too early, which precipitates its foot-
fall. As a result, the diagonal footfalls
are dissociated and the canter has a
four-beat rhythm, with the front foot-
fall occurring earlier.
I think, in all your brilliance, you’re getting stuck - or just want to confuse your audience. There are two separate things being discussed - a 4 beat canter, which no one will disagree with you about - and a canter pirouette, which had 4 beats - and is not penalized for having 4 beats.
Honestly - it is easy. Not for an amateur boarding, maybe, if they don’t have their own trailer, and as a guest on someone else’s property - but professional programs choose not to give their horses this exposure. Some of them probably don’t think of it. Others are just too busy doing what they are doing.
You can create a busy atmosphere at home. You can haul out to places that are busy. And I think there’s honestly nothing more important to do for your horse than to make them safe to be around in difficult situations, no matter what your discipline. You don’t want the one time you’re on the biggest stage of your life to be the first time your horse experiences crowds. You also don’t want a crazy reactive horse when you’re evacuating/evacuated for a fire. You don’t want your horse to pull loose and hurt himself when you have to tie to a trailer and someone leaves the property gate open. Crazy reactive horse that isn’t good enough for the Olympics can’t step down to an amateur.
Do weird things with your horses, they will be better for it.
i’m confused. When you collect a horse at the walk are you not asking the hind to come under and engage more? And, if so, wouldn’t that tend to push a horse into overtracking? I have a few horses who overtrack at liberty…i’m just now beginning to put a leg over one of them. Is he going to have a self-canceling walks?
short back/long legs and open angled hip/short croup…this is the basic structural reason why my three horses naturally overtrack. How common is that sort of structure in purposefully-bred dressage horses?
