From a horse welfare standpoint I find WDAA to be far, far more responsive to needs of the horse. And yes, riders too. But it’s not to give riders unfair advantage over another but rather something that accommodates legit rider needs - or horse needs.
Romels were used on FINISHED bridle horses, including in your historical art. In WDAA there are ZERO restrictions of size of curb bit on 3yo horses performing the equivalent of Intro.
The argument being made here seems to be that because classical dressage has a history of some abuses with equipment and riding, WDAA can do no harm and thus has no restrictions of bits. Not addressing your comments but others. Nevermind that we DO have increasing rules in classical dressage about tack and equipment to try to counter riders abusing their horses with said equipment.
6 Likes
That is NOT the argument. The WDAA is constantly working to improve horse situations. They adjust their rules a lot. They fall under the control of USEF who also has huge sway in the rules. The very motto of WDAA is Honor The Horse.
If a horse is ridden on such a way that it shows distress or a lack of relaxation it gets dinged. BTV comments appear in test comments and affect scores for contact etc.
It is so much more horse friendly than other disciplines it’s amazing. And it will continue in that path.
1 Like
What you wrote is really important. Folks ought to read it more than once and let it soak in.
If the way a Vaquero rider makes his “straight up in the bridle” horse does not count as “dressage,” then I think it is the dressage folks that ought to feel humbled and not the other way around.
Also, the number of “buttons” that a well-trained Western horse has that are related to the seat and leg aids is impressive. Again, I think dressage people shouldn’t throw shade.
As to the original question:
I asked about the wisdom/fairness-to-the-horse/“anyone can make a horse look like he’s on the bit with two hands and a leverage bit” issue at a WDAA “Train the Trainers” symposium a long time ago.
The answer that came back, from one of the founders, was that this was a “compromise” reached among the original set of people (many from Morgan show world) who started the discipline. He didn’t sound like he approved, but was willing to rhetorically represent two-handed-riding-with-shanked-bits as OK because that was the party line that the (then very young) discipline had chosen.
Listening to others talk about these roots, they made it sound like the founders of the discipline (Morgan folks, but maybe some AQHA folks, too, in their respective show disciplines) had horses who weren’t competitive in their rings. They loved their horses/breeds and wanted to create a new place to go and learn and compete.
What the best horseman ought to appreciate is the horse who is in an uphilll posture and self-carriage. If one trains with a snaffle, contact with the mouth is a means to that end. If one trains with a hackamore, a spade bit or even a snaffle that is used as a “signal bit,” the contact that seems so important in dressage world really isn’t. And if that’s not the only way to get a horse to Grand Prix movements, why privilege that relationship to the bit?
This is the problem with Western dressage: They let go of the fine bitting philosophy of the western horse in pursuit of dressage’s features. And what are those? More forward gaits? An uphill posture (I don’t think Dressage has cornered the market on that entirely).
The other thing to recall is that Western Dressage emerged in almost the same moment as Eitan Beth-Halachmy’s “Cowboy Dressage” which appeared similar, but had some significant differences. Among them was the emphasis on “soft feel” in the horse at all times/above all else. Cowboy dressage also had poles in some of its patterns, and there were in-hand tests.
As I recall (I was in Oregon at the time), there was a bit of a competition between the two programs’ adherents. I don’t think the WD people wanted for horses what Beth-Halachmy was aiming at in his discipline.
2 Likes
I think you’d have to explain a whole lot more about what you mean by contact. A spade bit works via “signal”. I suppose you have “contact” with a horse’s mouth in that bit in the sense that he’s carrying it, he understands it, he can feel all of its parts (and weight) all the time.
But I would be surprised to learn that a bridle horse guy would speak about “contact” in the way it gets discussed in dressage world, or as one could have a feel of the horse’s mouth all the time in a snaffle.
3 Likes
I rode with romal reins as a kid on both Arabians and QHs and I don’t understand what you mean when you say that “romels” (sic) “have constant contact”.
3 Likes
It seems to me that some people commenting here about riding a horse in the classic western style, that is one handed, as one does with romal reins, have never actually done it.
I have never had lessons, been trained, nor have I ridden in straight Dressage. Competing in Dressage in itself was not of interest to me. I think that some people here are speaking about something they have never done. I don’t comment on how to ride UL Dressage, because I’ve never done it. I have however ridden in full bridles and in Western bridle horse bits with romal reins.
I’ve only used the basic dressage movements that are common to young horse training of any kind, hunters, jumpers, and the Western disciplines. Those were all started with a snaffle, or bosal if the horses were being aimed toward a western discipline, where the curb used in one hand is the finish expected.
(In my experience, English or Western, properly training young horses requires that every horse learn to move from the seat and leg. SI, SF, leg yield, half pass, turn on the forehand, turn on the haunches etc… This obviously requires leg and seat, no matter if the goal is English or Western riding.)
It seems to me that some people here are mistaken about how riding a Western bridle horse is done, probably because they have never ridden one.
Having ridden in Arabian “versatility” classes as a kiddo, I can assure you (general you) that when you change from riding in romal reins always with one hand, to saddleseat English, with a full bridle you’d better understand the difference.
Same horse, different tack and the contact is not similar between the bridles.
8 Likes
I don’t see the point why you want to get into the spelling debate.
1-Romel is a common spelling used by major manufacturers, articles, and clinicians.
2-It’s what my phone wanted to autocorrect and I am honestly not on top of trying to fix everything it wants to think I actually mean. I was so used to seeing it from all of these other tack websites that yes, slipped right past me.
Weighted reins outside of romals (see I fixed the autocorrect for you) exist and are also commonly used by people with snaffle reins in the show ring.
My point is the weight whether it’s 36 ounces or whatever creates contact that in a lighter English style rein would be created ideally by the soft contact in the hands/wrist/etc.
I realize I’m in the minority here and I’m fine with it. I don’t think people should ridden with a death grip in a long shanked curb, but I personally think a soft two handed contact in a curb in a light rein is likely to be less “weight” than a horse often carries in romals or weighted reins. I did briefly look but didn’t find if anyone has done the study yet to back it up. There are definitely plenty of other ones out there with contact in riding. I think if rules should be created one way or another, then WD should have data to support it.
1 Like
Granted, I have never ridden in “weighted” reins, that wasn’t a thing (with my instructors anyway) back then.
Have you ridden a horse using regular romal reins? I didn’t find them to be terribly heavy so I’m curious what sort you rode in, maybe they were weighted? Times change and it’s been forever since I’ve shown Western. Are weighted reins the fashion now?
A properly adjusted curb chain never came into play when riding with a curb/romal bridle because we did not pull on the bit. The horses neck reined and went off the seat and leg aids. I wouldn’t have been allowed to show those horses if I rode on contact with that bridle set up.
It’s a whole different manner of using a curb than it is with an English Weymouth and bradoon.
I know almost nothing about western Dressage so take that with a grain of salt, but I have ridden in both a full English bridle and a fancy Western Salinas port bit with a cricket and romal reins, and to me, the action and use of the curb in those instances couldn’t be more different.
4 Likes
Yes. I actually grew up riding western on whatever I could find and went to a university with a heavy reining focus including horses in romals but I never showed as a youth. The horse I was ended up w/in undergrad had a rap and didn’t want to be a reining horse and I was boarding at a barn owned by an eventer so off to the world of dressage I went.
Regular lightweight romals now usually weigh at least 16 to 18 ounces. Most of the show ones are 30 plus. Then add in connectors or chains or anything else…
But even mecates and slobber straps can be dang heavy too.
My experience so far in WD is that if people are riding quietly and generously in a curb with both hands placed closely together the marks will reflect that it was a good ride. The handful of overbridled horses, whether one handed or two, had negative marks on the horse but the rider and harmony scores always reflected it. If someone rode with wide hands, especially in a curb, the judges realize it. But at least my pov in my area.
A good friend of mine is a WD judge so I’ll have to pick her brain more on how she sees the development of the sport going.
I actually have a couple pairs of older romals in storage in one of my boxes. I’ll have to see how much they weigh but definitely more than my current thinline reins. Those ones with a number of knots can have some heft on them but I’d be curious of their actual weight for sure.
1 Like
I showed with weighted reins for a few years as well as in a snaffle, a curb, mechanical hackamore and bosal.
Good contact, whether by 2 hands or one is a matter of acquired skill.
1 Like
Thanks for your response.
The romals I rode with (decades ago) 
were heavier than English reins but even with rein chains (which were not heavy back then), they were not super heavy. The fancy silver Garcia bits were substantial and the result was a great balance, but it was all one handed neck rein and extremely subtle at that.
Romals back then were distinguished by the “plait” count , not by the weight. I think the weight would depend on the material used (rawhide vs regular leather?) rawhide being the most common back then, and the higher the plait the thicker the reins would be. Some of those craftsmen were incredibly talented and made beautiful reins.
I never heard any talk of purposefully “weighting” reins, but then again this was before the low headed shuffling became a thing with the WP Quarter Horses (where I lived anyway), and the Arabian people weren’t doing it (using purposefully weighted reins) either.
Times change don’t they? It’s nice to look back on the memories though.
I look forward to hearing what you find when you unbox your reins of the past!
My weighted reins are only “weighted” on the ends (not the end that attaches to the bit) and are intended primarily to improve the drape of the reins. The “weighting” is just thicker leather on the last 6 inches or so and since my hands are between the “weight” and the bit, I don’t see how it has anything to do with the contact I might have with the bit.
3 Likes
Are they split reins or romals, and with what bit? I don’t think the non-weighted romals we used back in the day had anything to do with contact either.
Split reins and a snaffle.
It’s all in the hands isn’t it? Not the reins. I think we agree.
1 Like
I have had weighted reins that are doubled and stitched leather at the bit end. In cutting, you would use them to emphasize a drape and lack of direct contact with the bit when working a cow.
These are an example of them.
1 Like
On the flip side, I ended up with a saint of a reliable QH, with zero button. I wanted t show, but neither of us were curb trained, so as a teenage horse, WD was the only place that I could show in a snaffle.
I do expect WD to change over the years, but yes it’s designed to be as approachable as possible, hence the “come with what you have” approach.
I now compete in Working Eq, where everyone is judged together, English, Western, Spanish whatever. It’s interesting to see how that works, because whatever the style of tack, and equitation, the judges are looking for the same thing.
1 Like
Interesting. My ex rode cutting horses, but he didn’t have any reins like that on his bridles. Just regular long solid reins, though some were thicker at the ends, none of them were stitched at all.
ETA Like these reins, but they were darker from years of use.
2 Likes
Had the same - to emphasize the drape of the reins.
