Western dressage - now THIS is interesting!!!

[enjoytheride]

Most local shows run mostly on USEF rules but since it’s a schooling show and the more people attend and have fun the more money they make, they tend to be lenient.

If you are interested in showing dressage and not being obstinate for being obstinate’s sake then you shouldn’t have a problem.

I would see how a bareback pad wouldn’t be allowed for safety reasons, but an endurance saddle on someone doing a walk trot test shouldn’t be a problem. A couple years ago a show I attended had a very young rider who had just gotten bucked off her usually quiet pony perform her walk trot test in a western saddle. The DQs threw a hissy fit but everyone else was on the kid’s side.

[paulaedwina]

I’ll drop them an email and make my case.

Paula

[GotMyPony]

PE - Agree with the HC suggestion if you can’t convince the powers that be to let you officially compete. I rode in EZ-boots with gaiters on competitive trail rides before they were legal… because they weren’t officially allowed I had to ride “distance only” (i.e., not competing) but got all the same feedback from vets and obstacle judges so it fulfilled my purpose of learning about the sport. Eventually the organization changed rule to allow gaiters because they got so many requests from many riders who use them. Maybe dressage will “evolve” too - hehe, I’m ducking now!

[ViewParadise]

YES!!! I work my everlovin’ ass off to have horses/take lessons/feed said horses/etc. I work hard days and have two part time jobs to boot. YES, I DAMN WELL BETTER BE HAVING FUN. With my work ethic, if I had a desire to spend what remains of the hours in my days NOT having fun, I’d pick up another @#$# job. The horse world is struggling to fill shows/events/turn out at the Expos/you name it. If more ‘the horse world’ offered more sports that allowed folks to enjoy themselves, if that is what they wish, why the Hell not?! This world can be very intimidating to some and often appears to be filled with self proclaimed experts who turn their nose at hobbyists. Well, from all the stats I read, MOST of us ARE hobbyists and weekend warrior types who slave away at our jobs to be able to afford our horses and enjoy ourselves.
I totally don’t get the part of the equine culture that is against adults trying new things and having a good time. If this brings more entry fees and participation to the table, why not? Horses that may not have had ‘jobs’ due to not fitting into a particular pigeon hole, might find a home with an adult weekend warrior type. Adults, who have been put off by the expense and attitude that some dressage barns put out, may have the guts to try this sport. The horse world isn’t exactly known for being friendly and inclusive, if this sport draws from different breeds/walks of life/particular disciplines, isn’t that a good thing?

[QUOTE=GotMyPony;6998527]
Thank you, LR1, I appreciate the explanation. I was guessing that was the emphasis instead of a perceived “quality” of the gaits. It really does look like the QH show trail classes I used to see in East Texas. (I do still think it looks like fun.)

Shortly after I posted “That looks like fun,” someone replied, “Why does dressage have to be fun?” It doesn’t really but since I work a regular job, I prefer for my off-work pursuits to be fun. Working in an arena, I’d rather be side-passing over a pole, backing out of an L-shape, trotting over poles. I know I could do those same movements without the poles but having the poles gives it the feel of a game to me. My personal philosophy is just about everything is better as a game. I work at my job… I want to have fun in my hobbies. But to each his/her own![/QUOTE]

[californianinkansas]

[QUOTE=ViewParadise;7001937]
YES!!! I work my everlovin’ ass off to have horses/take lessons/feed said horses/etc. I work hard days and have two part time jobs to boot. YES, I DAMN WELL BETTER BE HAVING FUN. With my work ethic, if I had a desire to spend what remains of the hours in my days NOT having fun, I’d pick up another @#$# job. The horse world is struggling to fill shows/events/turn out at the Expos/you name it. If more ‘the horse world’ offered more sports that allowed folks to enjoy themselves, if that is what they wish, why the Hell not?! This world can be very intimidating to some and often appears to be filled with self proclaimed experts who turn their nose at hobbyists. Well, from all the stats I read, MOST of us ARE hobbyists and weekend warrior types who slave away at our jobs to be able to afford our horses and enjoy ourselves.
I totally don’t get the part of the equine culture that is against adults trying new things and having a good time. If this brings more entry fees and participation to the table, why not? Horses that may not have had ‘jobs’ due to not fitting into a particular pigeon hole, might find a home with an adult weekend warrior type. Adults, who have been put off by the expense and attitude that some dressage barns put out, may have the guts to try this sport. The horse world isn’t exactly known for being friendly and inclusive, if this sport draws from different breeds/walks of life/particular disciplines, isn’t that a good thing?[/QUOTE]

You are awesome. That is all.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=ViewParadise;7001937]
YES!!! I work my everlovin’ ass off to have horses/take lessons/feed said horses/etc. I work hard days and have two part time jobs to boot. YES, I DAMN WELL BETTER BE HAVING FUN. With my work ethic, if I had a desire to spend what remains of the hours in my days NOT having fun, I’d pick up another @#$# job. The horse world is struggling to fill shows/events/turn out at the Expos/you name it. If more ‘the horse world’ offered more sports that allowed folks to enjoy themselves, if that is what they wish, why the Hell not?! This world can be very intimidating to some and often appears to be filled with self proclaimed experts who turn their nose at hobbyists. Well, from all the stats I read, MOST of us ARE hobbyists and weekend warrior types who slave away at our jobs to be able to afford our horses and enjoy ourselves.
I totally don’t get the part of the equine culture that is against adults trying new things and having a good time. If this brings more entry fees and participation to the table, why not? Horses that may not have had ‘jobs’ due to not fitting into a particular pigeon hole, might find a home with an adult weekend warrior type. Adults, who have been put off by the expense and attitude that some dressage barns put out, may have the guts to try this sport. The horse world isn’t exactly known for being friendly and inclusive, if this sport draws from different breeds/walks of life/particular disciplines, isn’t that a good thing?[/QUOTE]

We have already stated that the more the merrier, if it gives you pleasure, why not?

Now, the discussion here was, is that truly dressage in any discernible form and if not why and what else could they call those classes?

Not that it matters to those that want to call it whatever they want, of course.

[GotMyPony]

Now, the discussion here was, is that truly dressage in any discernible form and if not why and what else could they call those classes?

Bluey, your question inspired me to look up the meaning of dressage. In the Oxford English Dictionary (both US English and British & World English versions) dressage is defined as: “The art of riding and training a horse in a manner that develops obedience, flexibility and balance.”

If anything, that definition would actually support calling these assorted specialty classes “X dressage”… and it spells out a worthwhile goal. From the practical/marketing perspective, the reason to use “dressage” is that the vast majority of riders are familiar enough with the word to know it is a respected form of training. By using the word dressage, the new disciplines are giving those who might be interested a familiar word/concept to grasp; it’s the “qualifier” word (Western, Gaited, etc.) that more narrowly defines the term and hence the particular group that might have an interest. If you used a completely new and unique name in place of dressage you’d have the tougher challenge of getting people to understand what that totally new name is referring to.

Marketers have always borrowed familiar/respected terms or labels… that’s why companies had to start trademarking brand names like Kleenex or Xerox which were becoming generic through mis-use. If the keepers of “real” dressage had thought of that earlier, all they’d have do now is send “cease and desist” letters!

[ViewParadise]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7002020]
We have already stated that the more the merrier, if it gives you pleasure, why not?

Now, the discussion here was, is that truly dressage in any discernible form and if not why and what else could they call those classes?

Not that it matters to those that want to call it whatever they want, of course.;)[/QUOTE]

Sure, why not?! Dressage is training and teaching the horse to better carry itself and better develop musculature that enhances the ability for a horse to carry it’s rider and remain strong, graceful and sound? Isn’t that the goal?
Calling it Western Dressage is much shorter than
‘Even If You Ride Western, You Too Can Ride A Test, Have It Scored, Use Whatever Horse You Wish To Ride, Use Your Favorite Western Tack, Dress Up Pretty, Have Fun With Your Horse In A Lower Key Way Than Traditional Dressage And Be Welcomed Without Intimidation’
Please note that I don’t do this sport myself, this is just a best guess. But, should the opportunity arise to try this sport, Hell Yeah I’d try it!

[longride1]

Yes, but the WAY the musculature is developed - the markers that dressage trainers use to determine when the goal has been achieved - that’s what makes it dressage, not race horse training or saddle horse training or Western pleasure training. They are very specific. Free gaits with maximum collection and extension to increase strength and balance. A free swinging back to protect the spine over time. Elevation of the forehand - uphill riding to protect the front legs. All gained by using specific carefully performed exercises to use the weight of the horse as a resistance to develop specific muscle systems. My impression is that Cowboy Dressage rewards tight backs, short gaits, and limited flexibility if the “picture” is “harmonious.” It gives lip service to the qualities of gaits that are the the core of dressage, then dismisses them as “not western” if they are fully expressed. They are trying to preserve the jog and lope, which is fine. I understand, but the jog and the lope are not gaits used in dressage, even though a horse trained using dressage methods may have a very easy, slow jog and lope when asked. There is a distinct difference between the way a half pass needs to be done to be an effective conditioning tool and the way a horse should move sideways while conserving energy or moving as fast as possible.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=longride1;7003028]
Yes, but the WAY the musculature is developed - the markers that dressage trainers use to determine when the goal has been achieved - that’s what makes it dressage, not race horse training or saddle horse training or Western pleasure training. They are very specific. Free gaits with maximum collection and extension to increase strength and balance. A free swinging back to protect the spine over time. Elevation of the forehand - uphill riding to protect the front legs. All gained by using specific carefully performed exercises to use the weight of the horse as a resistance to develop specific muscle systems. My impression is that Cowboy Dressage rewards tight backs, short gaits, and limited flexibility if the “picture” is “harmonious.” It gives lip service to the qualities of gaits that are the the core of dressage, then dismisses them as “not western” if they are fully expressed. They are trying to preserve the jog and lope, which is fine. I understand, but the jog and the lope are not gaits used in dressage, even though a horse trained using dressage methods may have a very easy, slow jog and lope when asked. There is a distinct difference between the way a half pass needs to be done to be an effective conditioning tool and the way a horse should move sideways while conserving energy or moving as fast as possible.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the English Oxford Dictionary comes short with that definition of dressage, way short, when we want to apply it to a discipline and/or judged classes.:lol:

Dressage is way more than what that description indicates, as the post above explains further.:yes:

We would really not call a three or five gaited class “ASB dressage”, just because they may also, as in that definition, may comply with: “The art of riding and training a horse in a manner that develops obedience, flexibility and balance.”

To those riding in those gaited classes, they will also tell you they are looking and being judged for, amongst other, “obedience, flexibility and balance”, while gaiting a certain way around and around the ring.

I do agree that anyone may borrow the “dressage” word for whatever they want.
Still, it will not really be guided by true dressage principles, as explained above.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=katarine;6998797]
It is a set of rules and regs. Wanting exceptions of any ilk is still asking the same…for someone to change the rules for you.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know a lot about gaited dressage, but didn’t the same kind of discussion ensue when that branch of dressage started?

I’m all for weeding out bad and casual training slumming under the respectable dressage banner. But making the point of entry be a discussion of the saddle? Really? Certainly a dressagist would agree that the saddle ridden in is a trivial point. So why put that front-and-center as a point of division?

One thing I’d like to see different in that test: A cleaner division between the turn on the forehand and a turn on the haunches. The “horse pivots around a point under his belly” doesn’t signify good training to me because it lacks precision, and the precision involved in being able to get a turn on the haunches when you want it actually matters for a horse who will do a job like cut cattle.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=longride1;7003028]
Free gaits with maximum collection and extension to increase strength and balance. A free swinging back to protect the spine over time. Elevation of the forehand - uphill riding to protect the front legs. All gained by using specific carefully performed exercises to use the weight of the horse as a resistance to develop specific muscle systems. My impression is that Cowboy Dressage rewards tight backs, short gaits, and limited flexibility if the “picture” is “harmonious.” [/QUOTE]

Maybe I have been in English world too long, but I can’t distinguish the tight backs you see from the stock-type horses that are bred to be a smaller, flatter kind of mover. At least that’s true in the various youtube videos posted here. Maybe it’s different live.

[longride1]

Short backed horses can have a swinging back, but it isn’t always very visible. It’s felt more than seen if all you look at is the back. And stock horses tend to have lots of slow twitch muscles, which give them bulk and can easily have a muscle bound quality. I look for soft lower neck muscles, moving ears, a tail that is held away from the body and swings in rhythm with the hind legs and a jaw that is relaxed but not gaping. The tail is an especially good indicator. What I really love to see is a quality to all the muscles that show up as a horse that looks like firm moving jelly - no held tension in any muscle that isn’t in use.

BTW, you will never see the “jelly” quality in a YouTube video. It’s hard enough to see live. It would be ultra super video quality to capture it.

[netg]

@Pocket Pony;6999793

I thought the video in the OP was an example of something that, to me, looked more fun than a regular dressage test. I find it interesting to work with obstacles rather than in an empty arena - it adds a certain “purpose” to the work, even if it is just maneuvering between two cones or keeping a certain distance around a circle of ground poles or trotting over poles without touching them.

The issue I had with this and calling it a form of dressage - is the obstacles don’t appear to be obstacles set up with a goal of progressive development of the horse and its body. The discussion above about muscular development of the horse’s body is a really good one.

That said, the competition video Paula posted was of a horse in a trot which would have done well in many second level classes I’ve seen if that horse is also able to do a medium trot.

I want to see dressage go back in the direction of classical dressage, correctness and development of the horse - and I think the attitudes and impatience of many are a much bigger detriment to that than what type of saddle is allowed. The rule about no western saddle has been there, and if you want to compete in Dressage, the answer of buying a saddle which is legal in the first place is a pretty simple one. However, if I were running a schooling show I know I would have no issue with someone riding in a western saddle, and don’t feel like the rules allowing western saddles would be likely to have much effect on anything assuming judges are still trained about what is correct and what isn’t. I love many equitation saddles and think they’d be great for early dressage work.

A well taught western rider SHOULD have a lot of the basics of the use of the seat which a dressage rider has as well.

[paulaedwina]

Thanks, Netg.

I really rather liked the competition video I posted too. The difference of course is that the competition video I posted is WD and the OP’s video is CD and they seem to be looking for different qualities. To that end I am not surprised they parted ways. A little while ago someone posted video of a well known judge pointing out the difference in qualities and characteristics between traditional dressage and eventing dressage -discussing the difference in muscling, muscle building, and movement between the two types of horses. It was very educational to me. I wish I could remember who posted the video or the name of it to link it here.

And I couldn’t agree more: A well taught western rider WOULD have a lot of the basics of the use of the seat which a dressage rider has as well.

Paula

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=longride1;7003830]
Short backed horses can have a swinging back, but it isn’t always very visible. It’s felt more than seen if all you look at is the back. And stock horses tend to have lots of slow twitch muscles, which give them bulk and can easily have a muscle bound quality. I look for soft lower neck muscles, moving ears, a tail that is held away from the body and swings in rhythm with the hind legs and a jaw that is relaxed but not gaping. The tail is an especially good indicator. What I really love to see is a quality to all the muscles that show up as a horse that looks like firm moving jelly - no held tension in any muscle that isn’t in use.

BTW, you will never see the “jelly” quality in a YouTube video. It’s hard enough to see live. It would be ultra super video quality to capture it.[/QUOTE]

I think you meant stock horses have/develop more fast twitch muscle fibers, more than the long slow twitch fibers encountered in the longer running horses?

Or did I get something wrong in what you are saying?

[longride1]

Bluey, you’re correct. It’s been a long time since I threw those terms into a conversation, and I got the terms backwards, if not the intention.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Core6430;6999378]

The reasons for not allowing certain styles of saddles was not to pick on certain group’s, but based on allowing the rider freedom of leg movement and ability to balance over their feet. Western saddles have customarily been designed to hold a rider in a position that isn’t conducive to the position required for a rider to effectively use their aids. It’s kind of the same idea as Saddle Seat saddles being used in saddleseat classes instead of western saddles… the saddle was made to help the horse and rider move in certain ways. Western saddles have primarily been designed for comfort and stability, not for sitting a huge strided trot with a rider correctly balanced over their feet. On the flip side… most dressage riders can’t ride the big trot either so we buy ‘dressage’ saddles with massive thigh blocks and call it dressage (they look like aussie saddles).[/QUOTE]

FWIW, if this is the FEI’s logic than they are dead wrong or ignorant of the way Western equitation saddles have been built for the last 30-40 years.

[ccoronios]

[QUOTE=mvp;7007270]
FWIW, if this is the FEI’s logic than they are dead wrong or ignorant of the way Western equitation saddles have been built for the last 30-40 years.[/QUOTE]

This - AND - what could allow freer leg movement (on the rider’s part) than a McClellan??? The only thing under your leg is stirrup leathers!

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Bluey;6999538]

The class shown in the OP video seemed just like a quick very beginner trail class you could do with any horse just peddling along?[/QUOTE]

Most lower level dressage tests look that way to me, too.

What makes people admire them is the fine distinctions in the quality of the gaits and training they can see in those WTC patterns.

As I understand it, people in DressageWorld talk about bought-to-be upper level horses doing only ok at lower levels and, of course, plenty of horses that will never find their way above 3rd level without a great deal of pain.

So how do we work within the same set of constraints for Western Dressage? I don’t know because I don’t know how western horses are made in comparison to English horses. Looking at reining and how fast western folks put lateral work and flying changes on their horses, it seems to me that their model is a little bit more like the “bought to be an upper level horse” model: You teach the young horse to do the same (reining) pattern as the older horse and then refine it’s quality.

I don’t know enough about it to have an opinion. Sometimes when I watch some git-r-done and money-making western trainers work with their young stock, I get scared: It looks like they might cripple a bunch or horses along the way.