Western Dressage Question

[Mondo]

I have familiarized myself with the judging criteria for all levels of Western Dressage, as I have been asked at schooling shows to judge it on occasion. I now have a student with a very western quarter horse who is considering trying western dressage. I’m comfortable with this horse in a snaffle, but he goes equally well in a curb.

My question is this: the rules on the USEF site clearly state that the rider must maintain “light contact” with the bit. I’m good with that in a snaffle, but how does that work with a curb? Curb bits are not designed for contact (contrary to how we see some double bridles used, but that’s another conversation). Western horses that go in a curb, are neck reined as a rule, i.e., no contact. How’s the “light contact” supposed to work if the rider is following the rules for a curb bit, which state riding with one hand? Anybody know?

[Mondo]

Let me add that I just was watching video of the Western Dressage Championships 2016. I watched a Level 3 test, which calls for collected gaits, half-pass, etc. In it, a rider was definitely riding with a curb bit, with a light contact. All looked good. But I noticed that she had two hands on the reins. That just confused me further.

[MysticOakRanch]

@Mondo

Let me add that I just was watching video of the Western Dressage Championships 2016. I watched a Level 3 test, which calls for collected gaits, half-pass, etc. In it, a rider was definitely riding with a curb bit, with a light contact. All looked good. But I noticed that she had two hands on the reins. That just confused me further.

Yep… I actually contacted the Western Dressage Association (both of them) a few years ago to ask about this issue, because I DO judge it at schooling shows. My recommendation to them was to NOT allow a curb bit at the lower levels, and to require single hand riding with a curb when it is used. I got a form letter response, thank you very much for your interest.

Luckily, I don’t see a lot of people riding in curb bits in the discipline. I DID see a trainer riding a horse in Cowboy Dressage in a curb bit, and he was see sawing on the reins to add to the misery of the picture. But most of the riders are in snaffles, and doing a pretty good job.

My recommendation, for what it is worth - stick with a snaffle, at least for the first few levels. Western Dressage is suppose to be based on the training principles of classical dressage, and those who do it well ARE familiar with those principles.

[KBC]

I have just asked the Canadian WD Association to look at the rule regarding light contact, that was in relation to the fact that you can ride in a bitless, which makes mention of contact with the bit irrelevant, and therefore hard to fairly judge.

When it comes to curbs, I have the lightest of contact, but I guess you can still call it contact, and it is consistent.

As to one handing or two handing, again in Canada we can two hand a curb if it has shanks that operate on a swivel, and is therefore described as a training bit, you can one or two hand, but can’t change mid test. Fixed cheek curbs must be ridden one handed.

going to post this although there maybe many replies, got called to help tie down a tarp shed threatening to turn itself into a kite!

[CHT]

I both show and judge western dressage.

What level is your student showing? Leverage bits are counter productive at the lower levels as it is harder to get a horse to stretch in the curb. I have shown one handed in a curb, but now show in a snaffle or a bosal. (Showing to second level so far, planning on trying third next month). Think of the lower levels as being what you would show a junior/green horse in: they are moving out more with a relaxed neck posture, and not being asked to collect…not really something requiring or benefiting from a curb.

Regardless, for contact, think of it as your student should carry the entire weight of the reins. This doesn’t mean pulling, but nor does it allow for a drape.

KBC, contact is not irrelevant when showing bitless. The rules do NOT say “contact with the bit”, just contact. This is to show correct training using negative reinforcement of the bridle pressure.

Alberta uses the American rules, which allow any “legal” curb to be used two handed as long as you have split reins. Romal reins have to be used one handed.

[KBC]

@CHT

KBC, contact is not irrelevant when showing bitless. The rules do NOT say “contact with the bit”, just contact. This is to show correct training using negative reinforcement of the bridle pressure.

But the overall Objectives read

WSD 1.02
Objective
of Western Dressage
1)
The objective of Western Dressage is the correct development of the horse to meet the
standard in WSD 1.01 resulting in an athlete that is a pleasure to ride, and works in
harmony with the rider. The result of this training is a horse that is calm, supple, loose,
balanced and flexible. The horse is also confident and willing to perform the correct
basics with little effort.
2)
The quality of this training is seen in:
a)
The freedom and regularity of the gaits.
b)
The harmony, lightness and ease of the movements.
c)
The lightness of the forehand and the engagement of the hindquarters.
d)
The acceptance of light contact with the bit, with compliance without any tension
or resistance in accordance with the level of training.
3)
The horse gives the impression of doing, of its own accord, what is required. The horse
is confident and attentive, accepting the aids of the rider

Then there is this

Working Walk - A clear, regular and unconstrained walk of moderate length. The

horse walks energetically but relaxed with even and determined steps. The rider

maintains a light, soft, and steady contact with the mouth

===========================================
There should be consistency throughout the rule book…

[lorilu]

Contact required because WD grew out of traditional dressage. In traditional dressage energy from the haunches is recycled through the bit to the hands etc forming the “circle of energy”/“circle
of the aids”. (WD did NOT grow out of western pleasure with the draped rein. )

[dotneko]

I also think that curb bits should not be allowed at lower levels. I am troubled by the ability to use two hands with the curb also. I try to think of the horse reaching to the bit - so if you fluffed the reins at them, they would stretch more. A loop in the reins is not correct, but I tend to be more forgiving with the curb bits - because, well, walk-jog in a curb - yikes. I guess I would prefer to see little contact and a pleasant picture than too much contact on a curb.

[atlatl]

Just a quick thought on riding with a curb bit and 2 hands; back in the day when I did the AQHA thing, I mostly rode with 1 hand, but on occasion would use 2 hands when riding with a curb bit that had swivel shanks or a shanked snaffle.

[CHT]

@atlatl

Just a quick thought on riding with a curb bit and 2 hands; back in the day when I did the AQHA thing, I mostly rode with 1 hand, but on occasion would use 2 hands when riding with a curb bit that had swivel shanks or a shanked snaffle.

Yes, lots of western riders of a variety of disciplines school their horse two handed in a suitable curb. I do not know why people find it so offensive. I do agree that it does not give you an advantage in Western Dressage though.

[CHT]

KBC: I think they copied some of their rules from English dressage. Most of the descriptives for correct gaits/movements just say “contact” and leave out bit. Perhaps you would prefer if they add, “if a bit is used” to that rule? Perhaps submit that as a rule change.

[Kirby_s_Keeper]

They are looking for a rein length like you would use for horsemanship or equitation classes and not the big drape that is the style in western pleasure. You can have contact without pulling on the bit.

As for 2 hands on the curb? It depends upon the mouthpiece and type of shank as to what effect you are having. A solid mouthpiece and fixed shanks gives you the same action of the bit with 2 hands vs one. A barrel jointed mouthpiece such as a Billy Allen with swivel shanks allows you to work each side of the bit independent from the other when working with 2 hands. A bit such as the Billy Allen is a great transition bit from snaffle to a solid curb.

Riding with 2 hands also keeps the rider’s shoulders more even and not twisting the upper body into the rein hand.

[MysticOakRanch]

@CHT

Yes, lots of western riders of a variety of disciplines school their horse two handed in a suitable curb. I do not know why people find it so offensive. I do agree that it does not give you an advantage in Western Dressage though.

A curb finesses longitudinal flexion and relative elevation, a snaffle is for lateral flexion (bend) - so it bothers me to see a rider pulling on the inside rein to create bend - it doesn’t work. And every once in a while (as I stated above), I’ll see someone “seesaw” on a curb - which is just useless, and tells me the horse has NO acceptance of the bit. The reason dressage horses start in a snaffle is to create bend on larger figures, and the horse isn’t yet ready for relative elevation, nor do you want to use that much leverage for longitudinal flexion early in the training.

Even in Western work, a finished bridle horse goes in a curb (or even a spade), but a young horse does not. In reining, many trainers start in a snaffle, and don’t move to a curb until the horse has training basics. I won’t comment on Western Pleasure, I don’t consider it useful training :no:

[csaper58]

@Mondo

Let me add that I just was watching video of the Western Dressage Championships 2016. I watched a Level 3 test, which calls for collected gaits, half-pass, etc. In it, a rider was definitely riding with a curb bit, with a light contact. All looked good. But I noticed that she had two hands on the reins. That just confused me further.

Bold within the quote is mine

The technique was working, why is that an issue?

A curb bit can be used with or without contact and with 2 hands or 1.

It’s not the bit.

It is the hands on the reins and the knowledge in the brain guiding those hands.

[CHT]

csaper58: exactly! People who think 2 handed in any shanked bit wrong just lack knowledge. See sawing is wrong in any bit and riding two handed in a curb requires understanding how the bit works, but why assume riders are incompetent?

It is also false to assume basic level western dressage horses are green: very often they are not, rather the rider is the one new to the sport of dressage and wants to use their “normal” show tack.

[Mondo]

Thank you everyone!! This is all very helpful information and I really appreciate it. Casper and CHT, I only took issue with two hands on the reins in the curb bit because I understood the rules to say one handed. But, if the shanks aren’t fixed, then technically it isn’t a curb. It’s a snaffle with shanks (stretching the definition of snaffle a little I guess). But I do see how the split reins vs. romel reins would make a difference there too. So much to learn! Thanks again. I’m enjoying the discussion.

Aside: The only time I’ve ever had a problem with a western rider using a curb with long shanks was when I saw a trainer at an Arabian breed show warming up his horse in a curb bit WITH DRAW REINS on it. I’m not a fan of DR anyway, but I’ll concede that they can have their uses. But not THAT use. That was just horrifying.

[Showbizz]

“Snaffle with shanks” is not a thing, IMO. It’s oxymoronic.

Rein contact means having a conversation with the horse’s mouth and is not necessarily dictated by rein length. Again, IMO.

While I much prefer to put my students in snaffles for WD, I have seen a couple of people in my area who have wanted to ride their tests in curbs, and they did so 2-handed. While I don’t think this is optimal, it got them in the ring for the first few times and I’m hoping they’ll go home and school in snaffles. I think, because so many in western show other discliplines in curbs, many amateur riders are hesitant to show back in a snaffle but most are fully capable in doing so.

[Mondo]

“Snaffle with shanks” is not a thing, IMO. It’s oxymoronic." That’s patently false, regardless of your “opinion.”

A Tom Thumb bit is a snaffle, not a curb. Has shanks. Ditto a Pelham. What makes a snaffle a snaffle is that the cheek pieces are not fixed. A snaffle also does not have to have a hinge or hinges in the mouthpiece (Mullenmouth). Those cheek pieces can be full cheek (shank-like), eggbutt, O-ring, D-ring, and many others. So, sorry to tell you but it IS a thing.

[Kirby_s_Keeper]

If the bit works by leverage then it is a curb bit regardless of the shank being fixed or hinged. A curb bit also utilizes a curb strap or chain to limit the amount of leverage the bit can exert. A Tom Thumb is a leverage bit and should be used with a curb strap. The type of mouthpiece doesn’t enter into the equation. The only way a full cheek could be considered a shanked bit is if you altered the bit to attach the headstall to the upper end of the full cheek and the reins at the lowest part of the full cheek so that when you pull on the reins the lower part of the full cheek rotates around the mouthpiece and creates leverage. No leverage no curb.

[TwoRoads]

@Kirby's Keeper

If the bit works by leverage then it is a curb bit regardless of the shank being fixed or hinged. A curb bit also utilizes a curb strap or chain to limit the amount of leverage the bit can exert. A Tom Thumb is a leverage bit and should be used with a curb strap. The type of mouthpiece doesn’t enter into the equation. The only way a full cheek could be considered a shanked bit is if you altered the bit to attach the headstall to the upper end of the full cheek and the reins at the lowest part of the full cheek so that when you pull on the reins the lower part of the full cheek rotates around the mouthpiece and creates leverage. No leverage no curb.

A baucher bit creates a very small amount of leverage but is still considered a snaffle. I think there is a little bit of a grey area here. Although I would say that to be a snaffle you would need more direct contact with the bit, the reins can’t be in a ring, below the bit, in a way that creates leverage. So like a kimberwick or elevator. If you ignore the slots and just attach the reins like to a normal D ring or loose ring it’s basically working as a snaffle, but as soon as you use one of those lower or outside rings to create leverage you no longer have a snaffle.