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Western Dressage Question

“The only way a full cheek could be considered a shanked bit is if you altered the bit to attach the headstall to the upper end of the full cheek and the reins at the lowest part of the full cheek so that when you pull on the reins the lower part of the full cheek rotates around the mouthpiece and creates leverage.” You are correct. Full cheek snaffle was an erroneous inclusion in my list. However, the rest of your statement proves the point I was making. The part of a snaffle bit that is attached to the headstall is independent of the mouthpiece, whereas the cheek piece (where you attach it to the headstall) on a curb is fixed, hence the leverage you reference.

And, I know leverage is what Wikipedia claims separates a snaffle from a curb. But I also know that what makes a snaffle isn’t just the absence of a shank/leverage, so much as it is that that cheek pieces are not fixed. You find me one single snaffle bit that has a fixed (non-swiveling) cheek piece and I’ll eat my words. Also, I’ve seen western riders (for no valid reason, although that’s been debated here before) use a curb chain or strap on a D-ring snaffle. So including that in the description is unhelpful too. And I’ve seen western riders using curbs without a curb chain. To each her own.

The Baucher does not create leverage since there is no pivot point. The Kimberwick is a curb bit and is to be used with a curb chain which is why they come with the hooks. The following is a great article regarding the Baucher and explanation of what makes a bit have leverage.

http://www.bitbankaustralia.com.au/allabouthorsebits/the-truth-about-the-baucher-snaffle-bit-rattling-the-cage/

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Mondo,
The strap used on a western snaffle is used to stop the bit from going through the horses mouth not as a curb strap. To use a curb without the curb strap is not correct no matter what the discipline.

By your definition of snaffle you should have no issues with western dressage riders using 2 hands on a shanked bit as long as the shanks are not fixed.

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That may be your opinion, but that is not what we are taught in judging school.

A snaffle means straight line from hand to mouth. No leverage.

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“…strap used on a western snaffle is used to stop the bit from going through the horses mouth not as a curb strap.” True and I understand that is the reason given. It doesn’t make any sense to me as the rings of the bit should prevent it from going through the horse’s mouth. Good lord, I would hope nobody is pulling that hard to one side!

Thanks, Kirby and Showbizz. I stand corrected and I appreciate the information. :slight_smile:

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re Boucher bits - IIRC they are now not permitted in recognized WD shows.

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I have had a snaffle bit go though a pony’s mouth. If you’re in a situation with a blind runaway heading for something that could likely kill you, a curb strap on a snaffle (if you don’t have a noseband on to keep your equine’s mouth closed enough you can’t pull it through) can be a life saver. :wink: If you’ve never been in a situation like that, count yourself blessed.

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The curb strap used with the snaffle bit is like having an “Oh $hit Strap” on a dressage saddle. You might never have to use it but it sure is nice to have it there just in case. :lol:

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I agree with all post I have read so far, up to this one.

And, OP, I think you are asking THE question of central importance for the Dressage/Western fusion.

To be clear, WP did not invent the draped rein. Rather, the draped rein comes out of the bridle horse tradition in which the weight of the rein, plus a pretty complicated bit designed to deliver a “signal” to the horse by it’s movement did the work. In this tradition, you never wanted consistent contact (even in the snaffle a colt might wear) because your end-goal was a horse who went "straight up in the bridle) using a leverage bit.

So, IMO, the attempt to fuse DressageWorld’s emphasis on consistent contact or the horse willingly pushing into the bridle is an enormous mistake. (And FWIW, I think DressageWorld’s emphasis on consistent contact for the lower levels is overdone, but I see how/why it fits into the training system they have built.).

My points are two (and I don’t think the WD people acknowledge them in their judging criteria)

  1. There are “many roads to Rome,” Rome being the finished horse who is supple, strong and capable of FEI-level movements. I think you can make a western bridle horse who can perform a GP test just fine… if you ignore the headgear and contact issue. And if the rest of his body and mind are great, what’s the problem?

  2. If the end goal of the Western horse and the bit he’ll wear for most of his life is different (a leverage bit as opposed to a snaffle), I think you need to respect that. You can’t/shouldn’t import the riding/training goal meant for a snaffle to a system that has a horse in a curb. That’s profoundly misguided.

I will say that when I have asked WD types about this issue, they usually talk about Real Politik, not horse training philosophy. I have heard them say that the allowing two handed riding with a curb bit is a matter of compromising with the breed people** who were instrumental in starting WD. **And the “breed people” were primarily the Morgan folks who loved their breed and Western showing, but wanted something else to do with their horses. In addition, they didn’t want to be scared. I’ll bet that if you are riding a Morgan (or Arabian) and trying to imitate the almost-dead quiet look of the Quarter Horse, you are going to wish you were allowed to take more of a feel of his mouth. I don’t think these hotter breeds are mentally cut out to do WP very well.

More recently, you can see the WD people learning the thinking and vocabulary of Formal Dressage. E.g. those guys re-publishing the Training Pyramid for their audience. And I’ll bet this emphasis on acceptance of contact has the same cause: People who don’t come from dressage world and haven’t really thought about the difference between the whole training system devised for a horse who will go in the “signal devices” of the bosal and spade bit before too long are confusing this element of a training system built around the shape and action of the snaffle and the rider’s hands/arms.

And so, OP, I think you should stick to your guns: Ride this horse in a snaffle correctly, as he needs it. If you ride him in a leverage bit, ride him correctly in that… or go back to the snaffle and/or bosal and/or spade bit and bosality. And if you do take this course, know that you are in good company. I think the good Californio riders are not ashamed to put a horse back into a snaffle as need be for his training.

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To answer your question. The problem is that the shape of a curb bit encourages a horse to tuck his chin with far less pressure put on the bit by the rider’s pull than does a snaffle.

And that’s a problem because in Dressage’s system of riding a horse into the contact, you actually don’t want him to “prematurely” tuck his chin. Rather, you want him to feel safe resting on the bit so that he can raise the base of his neck ahead of the withers.

For horsemen in all traditions, the goal is to get the horse to lift up his rib cage between his shoulder blades, assume an uphill posture and push- rather than pull himself along. So any bit or way of riding that makes that change in the horse’s body harder rather than easier is, IMO, a huge, huge mistake.

And it’s that’s two “huges” because cause the horse who has figured out how to tuck his chin while leaving his back low is a tough fix. It takes time, some frustration for the horse (because you are changing a set of rules he was taught well by that bit), and a whole lot of feel and skill from the rider. Quite frankly, the riders/pros who are good enough to take the two years or so it takes to reshape this horse don’t often meet up with them because these horses are usually older, not-fancy and don’t belong to an owner who has the time. money and knowledge to put into completely retooling the horse.

Sorry for the ranty exigesis. It’s just that I have met so many of these badly-schooled horses who never get the chance to do it right and owners who say “Hey, if he has a nice headset and he can W/T/C in this bit, what’s the problem?”

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Bold is mine.

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Just for clarity,

Bits have mouth pieces, rings, and or shanks. The ‘shank’ has a cheek composed of the purchase above the bit and the shank/lever arm is below the bit. The purchase and the shank can be movable or fixed.

A snaffle is a mouth piece. It is jointed in 1 or more places. A curb is a mouth piece that is solid and has a curved portion.

A snaffle mouth piece and can have loose/eggbutt rings, loose or fixed D rings, a pelham configuration, or shanks of any length.

A curb mouth piece can have loose/eggbutt rings, loose or fixed D rings, a pelham configuration, or shanks of any length.

There are also baucher, half-cheek, full cheek, gag, and elevator varieties with both snaffle and curb mouth pieces.

Y’all seem to be comparing apples and oranges a lot of the time.

Perhaps including a photo of the bit you are speaking of will help the discussions?

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In one long boring hot summer decades ago I decided to work on my seat by riding bareback all summer. After a few days of boredom I reflected on what Podhajsky (sp?) wrote about the SRS school of dressage being based on Gueriniere’s (sp?) book, and that the riding that book described was done JUST with a curb, with LONG branches, on contact.

I dug out my 5" shank Weymouth curb with the sliding cheek piece and started riding in it. I used both of my hands on the reins. After my horse got used to my gentle, soft and gradual signals with the bit, I asked him for contact. We rode the rest of the summer with me keeping a two-handed contact with the curb, with frequent breaks of course.

I was doing as a test for the sensitivity of my hands riding Forward Seat. I had standards, as in if my horse “broke” his neck at the 3rd cervical vertebrae with his neck going down to his poll I was doing it WRONG. My horse strode forth freely at the walk all summer, with his nose stuck forward like a good Forward Seat horse, never putting his neck wrong or his nose in.

I was not good enough to get this result at the sitting trot, as his head came up, but his neck was still rising in a smooth curve up to his poll. Since I was not good enough to do it at the sitting trot I did not try it at the canter.

I had already taught him to neck rein so I had no problems turning as I lay the appropriate rein against his neck. Riding with sagging reins it took just a little jiggle of the reins to get him to slow down, then halt, even from a gallop.

I had fun riding my horse that summer. In no way did he even offer to go behind the vertical, and he voluntarily kept a “live” even contact with my hands. We walked, trotted (sitting and posting bareback) cantered and galloped in some pastures.

It IS possible to keep contact with a 5" shank curb without getting the horse behind vertical. Even now, with my MS, my riding teacher allows me to do this for a short while at the walk when I introduce a horse to a Pelham or a double bridle.

I just wish I had been good enough to do it at the trot, canter and gallop.

So when you write a story details matter.

Were you not good enough to canter, or did you gallop around bareback all summer?

You don’t generally neck rein if you have a rein in each hand.

First you say you rode on contact then you say you rode with sagging reins.

I can’t imagine riding Forward Seat bareback.

What did you actually do?

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My horse, Hat Tricks, Anglo-Arab gelding, when I used my legs to ask for contact, reached forward gently until I felt contact with the reins just like he did for a snaffle though the contact itself was a little lighter. I followed all his head motions at the walk, and I did the three speeds of the walk exercise on contact, with him reaching out for a slightly stronger contact as he extended his walk, and with him shortening his neck slightly when we slowed down. I kept my fingers relaxed as I followed his mouth or used rein aids.

When I did the sitting trot, bareback, with the Weymouth curb, he raised his head higher than he did when I kept contact with the snaffle bit when sitting the trot bareback. To me, since I did not have a riding teacher at that time to guide me, that was a sure sign that I WAS NOT STEADY ENOUGH with my hands for Hat Tricks to give me the type of contact I would have with a snaffle. Hat Tricks was a good teacher, if I did stuff right he promptly did what I asked, if I did it wrong he would gently protect himself and tell me to do better. Occasionally he would decide that I needed a sharp lesson, and he would give it to me (wham on the ground.)

I did not canter with the curb on contact because of the limitations I set on myself since I did not have a riding teacher. If I was not good enough to do it at the sitting trot I was obviously, to me at least, not good enough to do it at the canter. So at both the sitting trot and canter the reins were sagging down maybe an inch, not so much that they were swinging too much and irritating Hat Tricks. All rein aids were gentle and Hat Tricks usually obeyed them before the slack was out of the reins. Since Hat Tricks was quite willing drop contact when my hands were irritating him or sling his head around violently if my hands were really bad, and I took his quiet head and steady contact with the curb at the walk as a good sign. We frequently cantered (sagging reins) and galloped often (sagging reins), bareback across the pasture. Hat Tricks did not sling his head around when I asked him to slow down from any speed, even a flat out gallop (1/2 TB, he could run some!)

At no time during my rides that summer did Hat Tricks lose impulse, he promptly obeyed my legs when I just flexed my calf muscles, so I did not need spurs at all. He was in front of my leg and quite willing to go faster sanely and obey me no matter what his speed.

Years later when I tried to keep contact with a curb with a 7" shank (a Walking Horse curb bit, a Tom Bass curb bit and a Show Pelham), the horses immediately went behind the vertical and I immediately stopped trying to keep contact with the curb and went to loose rein riding for the curb. I rode my Paso Fino mare for years with the 7" shank Walking Horse curb. I could not keep contact with this curb without her immediately going behind the vertical, but we communicated fine with sagging reins, gentle movement of the bit, and leg aids. When I neck rein with reins in both hands I look where I want to go, lay the rein against the horse’s neck, and reinforce the rein with the appropriate leg at the appropriate time. My little Paso Fino mare was a firecracker, always ready to go, Go, GO, but she would keep her speed down with light rein aids, even when she was looking for excuses to rocket off, keeping her head in front of vertical all the while.

My MS was already affecting me that summer I rode bareback with the Weymouth curb, not badly but enough so I could not quite ride up to the level I wanted to. My balance was already deteriorating though I still had enough balance to ride bareback, but my front to back balance was not ideal.

Because of this summer of riding Hat Tricks just with the Weymouth curb, my riding teacher has always been willing for me to use a double bridle or a Pelham even though my MS is MUCH worse than it was back in that summer. In fact she is willing for me to try the curb first with just my 7" shank Tom Bass curb just to see if the horse will accept a curb bit (both hands, sagging reins). I no longer can ride bareback since my balance is HORRIBLE now, but I still know how to ride in a curb without the horse going behind the vertical or getting upset. I do not ride dressage, but I do know it is possible to keep contact with a 5" shank curb, using both hands, without the horse going behind the vertical or losing impulse. I did it occasionally at a walk with the last two horses I rode with double bridles during the past ten years, and if I got to ride a horse suitably conformed for riding in a curb I would do it again, with the permission of my riding teachers.

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With respect to the claim that I think all of them should move like dressage horses. Not so! But good hunters do lift their shoulders and endurance horses who will have long careers similarly need to push- rather then pull themselves around for a lifetime.

I’m not a life-long DQ who looked outside her sandbox a couple of minutes ago.

@Jackie Cochran Thank you for the clarification, now I understand what you where explaining.

This may be your definition, but this is not the industries commonly accepted definition and this is definitely not how the rule book will describe these bits. A snaffle can have no joints, or it can have many joints. It can have a tongue relief… It cannot have leverage or a gag effect.

A curb has leverage and may or may not have a gag effect. The mouth piece can be pretty much anything.

reread the rules as per pretty much any western discipline (not a bit sales brochure) to read the industry standard definition.

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Nope. I do metal work and have made bits, The terms I used are the standard terms in the industry.

The Dressage rule book is a different kettle of fish. As is colloquial terminology used to induce buyers to purchase bits.

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Another vote for “snaffle has no leverage regardless of mouthpiece” and “Curbs have leverage regardless of mouthpiece”. I have found NO examples of knowlegable trainer, clinicians, or websites claiming otherwise.

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